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Your appointed rulers being aristocrats does not make it feudalism. Czarist Russia was an autocracy and all of its officials and military officers were titled nobles, but it wasn't feudal.
True, the feudal bit is the hardest part to shoehorn into the Imperium without the nobility having land grants and a military role...
and being the local lords in their own right.
We could easily make it feudal, though. Solidify authority in with the Dukes. Stop faffing about with centralized bureaucracies like a Ministry of Justice, independent Navy, and all that. Empower the Moot. The Emperor is Archduke of Sylea and funds his household that way. The local Dukes spend the local taxes on law & order, defense, development, etc.
This is how it makes sense to me, the local dukes are in effect little emperors, but they better not displease the Emperor. And make sure those taxes keep flowing.
The death of feudalism is centralization and absolute power in the position of the monarch.
So no Emperor?
Your copilot quote looks neat, but "lords & vassals with land ownership & obligations" is a direct conflict with "absolute power and unilateral decisions".
I know, it is the thing I have struggled the most with for the past forty years trying to reconcile the Imperium.
 
The existance of a King or Emperor is not the problem. The degree of power the central authorities have relative to the vassals is. The Emperors of that were actually Feudal, like the Holy Roman Emperor, were rarely particularly powerful and were constantly begging their vassals for help and bribing them to do stuff. Feudal Kings & Emperors found it nearly impossible to revoke titles unless there was very obvious and high crimes committed. That makes the other lords go "hmmm" and cry Tyrant! :D The Autocratic Emperors with a centralized power source and standing army did not generally have this problem (weak autocrats had different problems :P).

Anyway, back to the actual topic. Ultimately, the question is "what does the Subsector Duke do?" Does anyone know? They apparently don't control the Navy, Scouts, or Army. Even the Starport Authority has a chain of command running back to the Emperor that doesn't mention the Dukes. We don't really know how the Ministry of Justice or the Ministry of Colonization work, but the brief references often refer back to central authorities.

We can't decide anything about the government until we determine what the Dukes do, because the Sector Duke and Archdukes just do more of that. If we know what the Duke can and cannot do, then we are in a position to determine whether the Counts, Viscomtes, Grand Poobahs, Deputy Arch Barons, and whatever else do, if anything.
 
That's like Democratic Dictatorship. :D
One party rule. The candidate is selected by the party leaders. Vote for that candidate or face the wrath of the party.
When the party and coconspirators change the rules outside of the normal methods in order to count votes that should not count, you essentially have one party rule, as they have nullified the other party/parties.
When you have an election within a party in order to decide who the party will put forward, but the party and their coconspirators lie to the public, and once there is no time to conduct another election - and the candidate is shown to be incompetent - party leadership selects another candidate, who would NEVER have won the primary, you have selection by party leaders.
When you have a corrupt judiciary targeting your opponents, a media brainwashing the masses, and cancel culture doxxing any who disagree with them you have the wrath of the party for disobedience.

This is the type of Democratic Dictatorship one party was advocating for as they called any who challenged them a threat to THEIR democracy.
So it is not as much of an oxymoron as you might think... even though the majority of their arguments WERE moronic.
 
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If all of that were true then you wouldn't have a democracy. Just like East Germany called itself the German Democratic Republic, when it wasn't. Your argument is that words don't have any meaning, so we can call it whatever we want. We could call the Third Imperium a Libertarian Monarchical Plutocracy. Because why not?

However, definitional arguments are kind of repetitive. And thinly veiled real world political rants are even less interesting as a game topic. So I'm done with this conversation.
 
I am saying that we have a current political party acting that way, and I suspect the like minded globalists in other countries are following the same playbook. And no, standard definitions, under them, change to fit their narrative.

Thus Democratic Dictatorship is not an oxymoron. Also a listing of provable facts is not a rant.
 
Could you add anything to your earlier post? It certainly is an interesting discussion.

I've reviewed MgT 2e Core Rule Book, Third Imperium, Solomani Front, and High Guard.

This is what I came up with.

Are the worlds of the Spinward Marches granted home rule provision more so than core worlds, or is the same level of autonomy common throughout the Imperium? Does any world really have autonomy?

It seems the answer is no. Core sector has just as much home rule provision as the Spinward Marches.
From Third Imperium:

A common misconception is that mercenaries are less common closer to the Imperial Core, which is far from the case pg 40, Third Imperium.

There is a great deal of conflict and strife in the Core pg 107, Third Imperium.


There are a lot of statements about worlds governing themselves, with no distinctions between Core and frontier sectors. I think the only worlds in the Imperium that have something close to real independence are the worlds of the Vegan Autonomous District.

If so why are Imperial nobles so much more common, if all they are doing is advising and or are acting as intermediaries with the subsector duke?

  • Nobles serve as Imperial administrators, collecting taxes, interfacing with other Imperial agencies such as the navy and scouts, and making sure that the worlds of the Imperium abide by its laws pg 4, Third Imperium.
  • The Imperial bureaucracy is present on most of its worlds, run by the nobility. Pg 4, Third Imperium.
  • The peerage is responsible for the administration of the domains, sectors, subsectors, worlds and continents pg 87 Third Imperium
  • The great noble families carry a responsibility of service to the Imperium and typically hold positions within the bureaucracy, diplomatic roles, judicial positions and business or military leadership roles. Pg 47, Third Imperium.
  • The role of the noble is to maintain an aloof presence, be a caretaker for the Emperor but not one who interferes in the daily governance of worlds other than to ensure that the flow of trade is unimpeded and citizens do not violate Imperial law pg 49, Third Imperium.
  • Nobles rent and tax the land under their purview but ultimately it still belongs to the Emperor and can be taken back at his whim. Pg 49 Third Imperium.
  • Groups of knights from an order – or in some cases, the entire available membership – may be called upon from time-to-time by a baron or higher to accomplish a task in service to the Imperium pg 48, Third Imperium.
  • The great noble families carry a responsibility of service to the Imperium and typically hold positions within the bureaucracy, diplomatic roles, judicial positions and business or military leadership roles. Pg 47 Third Imperium.
  • Rival nobles are not permitted to declare war on one another, but they can and sometimes do manipulate the governments under their administrations into doing so pg 11, Third Imperium.

From the above references, it looks like nobles:
  • Serve in the Imperial bureaucracy, intelligence agencies, and military,
  • Manage and administrate their fiefs, if they have them.
  • Watch for and act against violations of Imperial law,
  • Raise, administrate, and probably lead huscarl / household forces,
  • Engage in scheming and manipulation of planetary governments for their own designs.
  • Serve as mediators and negotiators,
  • Go on adventures in the service of higher nobles and the Imperium.
If local nobles can use the authority of the Emperor then how are local worlds anything but subservient to the whims of the local nobles?

Because Imperial law, custom, and tradition is for the nobles administering their fiefs to faff around and pretty much let the poors slaughter each other as long as taxes get paid, nobody violates Imperial law, and nobody interferes with trade. If any of those requirements are violated, then it's on full kits and sound board ships. A noble who gets involved in local laws and affairs and causes trouble stands a chance of getting reprimanded and losing his fief.
  • The Imperium does not impede upon the laws of its worlds unless they conflict with Imperial law. Imperial law is mostly vague, allowing the Emperor to alter it depending on circumstances but some Imperial laws are immutable. Pg 4, Third Imperium.
  • Their (huscarles) presence is also a not-so-subtle reminder to the citizens of the Imperium that should they fail to comply with Imperial law, the noble bureaucracy can be transformed into a tool of enforcement pg 32, Third Imperium.
  • Bad behaviour among the peerage is not unknown and can result in the suspension or revocation of a noble patent by the Emperor or the Moot pg 45, Third Imperium. (apparently the Moot has the power to revoke noble patents now, another inconsistency since the Moot's only power is to dissolve the Imperium).
  • The Huscarles were used to quell dissent among the worlds of the Marches pg 32, Third Imperium.
Which level of nobility - world noble, subsector duke, sector duke - can authorise the use of the Imperial military or direct the activities of Imperial Ministries? or are the Military and Ministries beholden to Capital and thus must wait years for instructions?

Huscarles, household lift infantry regiments, and household troops can be under the command of a fiefholding noble or a leader appointed by a noble house (probably a noble of that house).
  • Huscarles are the private armies of the Imperial nobility. Pg 32, Third Imperium
  • Powerful noble houses established personal bodyguard regiments, some of which were later converted into regular Imperial Army units. Pg 32, Third Imperium.

It appears that numbered subsector fleets are under the command of the subsector duke.
  • Numbered fleets are also called subsector fleets. Subsectors are feudal subdivisions of Imperial sectors and subsector navies are to some degree instruments of the nobility that manage a given subsector pg 13, Third Imperium.
  • Each subsector maintains its own fleet of ships, composed normally of cruisers, escorts, frigates and medium-sized ships. Subsector navies are primarily responsible for defence, patrol of the spaceways and safeguarding trade and commerce across the sector. In wartime, each subsector is required to put a fraction of its ships at the disposal of the Imperial Navy to act as reserves and reinforcements. Pg 3, High Guard.
And it looks like Imperial fleets have existing war plans that they can act on in the event of war without waiting for orders. The sector duke commands the sector fleets and would have the authority to use Imperial military power.

(generally a subsector duke becomes the) ...sector duke, dealing directly with the archduke and exercising executive authority over the senior echelons of the sector’s Imperial military and bureaucracy pg 18, Solomani Front.

...fleet elements would need no detailed orders, merely an authentication code and instructions to implement one of the existing plans pg 21, Solomani Front.


The only system that has made any sense to me is that of the subsector duke being in effect the local emperor, able to direct military and ministry resources, but the sector duke gets to write reports to Capital that can either confirm or criticise the decissions of the subsector duke.

I agree, but it seems more like the subsector duke controls the subsector numbered fleet, and the sector duke controls the named sector fleets. It's interesting. The subsector duke has a numbered subsector fleet, but then there are named Imperial sector fleets to make sure he doesn't get any ideas.
  • Each subsector maintains its own fleet of ships, composed normally of cruisers, escorts, frigates and medium-sized ships. Subsector navies are primarily responsible for defence, patrol of the spaceways and safeguarding trade and commerce across the sector. pg 3, High Guard.
  • Numbered fleets are also called subsector fleets. Subsectors are feudal subdivisions of Imperial sectors and subsector navies are to some degree instruments of the nobility that manage a given subsector pg 13, Third Imperium.
  • The Imperial navy is the tool of diplomacy and conquest as needs dictate, the Emperor’s own sabre pg 2, High Guard.
  • (generally a subsector duke becomes the) ...sector duke, dealing directly with the archduke and exercising executive authority over the senior echelons of the sector’s Imperial military and bureaucracy pg 18, Solomani Front.

I even think it is a good idea for the sector duke to maintain a healthy amount of competition if not hostility between subsector dukes so none of them can replace the sector duke.

Again, I agree, and Third Imperium mentions rivalries between dukes.

The sector duke can also countermand the orders of a subsector duke to the military or ministries (when they find out by which time it may be too late), but they better get the call right, as when the Emperor finally finds out what is going on there may be comeuppance.

I agree. Too bad the books I referenced didn't go into any specifics, so we can only speculate. It seems like there are three separate space forces operating.
  • The named Imperial sector fleets, under the command of the IN chain of command and then the sector duke.
  • The numbered subsector fleets, under the command of subsector dukes.
  • Colonial or planetary fleets, which are under the control of planetary governments.


And it's Christmas Eve, so I'm going to finish this post.

Merry Christmas, Travellers!
 
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Doesn't work. The government is a year away. The USA wouldn't function if it took a year to communicate a from DC to the frontier states. Imagine finding out the Japanese have attacked Pearl Harbour months after it has happened. Who commands the Navy to start a war?
Funny it worked all durning the 1800s
It's almost a year, nearly two for communication to get from the Marches to Capital and back. The same is not true of the core sector. Core sector worlds are linked by a jump 6 communication network, so much more direct Imperial control can be maintained.

If the Marches had jump 6 comms much more direct control of the worlds of the Marches would be possible,
some of the core worlds have a 6 plus month turnaround time for communication so it is the same effect. Any communication longer than 28 days is to long for your direct rule
The constitution has no bearing on this discussion, the Imperium is a hereditary feudal autocracy.
you do know that I was talking about how the constitution divided up the power originally? By the way the imperium also has a constitution
 
Either the Emperor has absolute power and he is appointing viceroys to the provinces or the Emperor is a feudal monarch with vassals controlling the provinces through personal oaths and enfeoffment contracts spelling out mutual rights and obligations.
See there’s this new thing called a constitutional monarchy. You can have both especially when it’s impossible for direct rule. The Emperor is absolute within his given powers that doesn’t mean he’s absolute in everything or that he directly controls all aspects of the imperium
 
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Another note: people keep talking about the jump 6 x-boat network in the core (looking at the map I don’t see it but okay) your forgetting that even in the core the X-boat network only covers about 1/3 of the worlds and travel gets even slower once you leave the network.
 
Since we are allowing the LBB I thought I interject the from the wiki which interesting enough backs up what Actionman posted
“Also called The Imperium. Founded in 0 by Cleon Zhunastu from the Sylean Federation in what is now Core Sector. The Third Imperium is a feudal confederation. Member worlds of the Imperium agree to pay taxes and obey a few fundamental laws which the Imperium promulgates, known as the High Laws. In return, the Imperium agrees to patrol the space between the worlds, to protect interstellar trade, to encourage travel and commerce, and to arbitrate diplomatic relations between worlds. Beyond this, individual worlds are left to their own devices so long as they acknowledge the power of the Imperium to rule the space between the stars.[1]

Imperial power is present on member worlds in the form of Starports, consulates, bureaucratic offices, and bases. Sometimes, larger enclaves of Imperial power are placed where they can enhance the emperor’s strength.”
 
One last bit for this night
Many of you keep saying the emperor has direct rule over the Core but which Core are you talking about? The Core of the Imperium (No way), Core Sector (Not likely but I’ll not push it), or Core SubSector (Still not probably but I’d give it at least a fighting chance).

There are three different cores when you talk about the 3rd Imperium
 
Funny it worked all durning the 1800s

How many states were in the USA in 1800, how many by 1850?

If the telegraph had not come along the USA would be several different countries.
some of the core worlds have a 6 plus month turnaround time for communication so it is the same effect. Any communication longer than 28 days is to long for your direct rule
The British Empire maintained control with communication turnaround measured in months.
you do know that I was talking about how the constitution divided up the power originally? By the way the imperium also has a constitution
If that is the case you managed to hide it, I didn't see much about separation of powers, which may or may not be a thing in the Imperium.
Norris was able to arrest and imprison a political rival with no trial and then hide it, a group of PCs may well end up on prison planet with no trial.
The Imperial constitution is "the Emperor does what they want to, the subsector dukes do what they want to provided the Emperor is ok with it" and once again was part of the yanks in space trope this time the result of the T4 fanon becoming canon.
 
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See there’s this new thing called a constitutional monarchy. You can have both especially when it’s impossible for direct rule. The Emperor is absolute within his given powers that doesn’t mean he’s absolute in everything or that he directly controls all aspects of the imperium
A constitutional monarchy doesn't work like that, a constitutional monarch rules at the whim of the parliament or other body that empowers them.
 
Another note: people keep talking about the jump 6 x-boat network in the core (looking at the map I don’t see it but okay) your forgetting that even in the core the X-boat network only covers about 1/3 of the worlds and travel gets even slower once you leave the network.
And forgetting that the Sylean Federation has been around for over 1500 years (need to check that number so consider it a placeholder for now) and expanded out into the core sectors over a thousand years ago.
 
One last bit for this night
Many of you keep saying the emperor has direct rule over the Core but which Core are you talking about? The Core of the Imperium (No way), Core Sector (Not likely but I’ll not push it), or Core SubSector (Still not probably but I’d give it at least a fighting chance).

There are three different cores when you talk about the 3rd Imperium
The Emperor rules the whole Imperium, their word is law.
By core i usually mean Core sector and those sectors immediately adjacent to it.
A thousand years is long enough for Imperial direct rule (via the nobility) on every world in this space.
 
1. Mercenary justified boots on the ground.

2. High Guard justified the Imperium Navy.

3. You have to figure out somewhat yourself, the apparent roles and functions of the nobility within the Imperium.

4. Rule by the Imperium is the worst form of government, except for all the others.
 
Agree, but with comms lag who gets to make the urgent decision, the fleet admiral or the local subsector duke? Or do they both sign off on it and share the fallout?

It's the comms lag that bothers me and the destruction that could take place before you get authority from on high.

So is the Imperium more concerned about external attack or internal dissent?

That doesn't help with how does the Imperium authorise its military to take action.

How is that relevant to who authorises the use of the Imperial military?


You don't want a vertical integration of all the sources of power, that not only permit a revolt to be successful, but allow the functioning of a political entity.

While it's true that the upper echelons of the Imperium Navy tends to be filled by the aristocracy, I would think that they tend to be posted away from their, or their clan's, regional power base(s).

It's pretty clearly illustrated in Anderson's Commander Flandry/The Rebel Worlds, that regionally recruited military tend to be rather parochial.
 
The Emperor rules the whole Imperium, their word is law.
By core i usually mean Core sector and those sectors immediately adjacent to it.
A thousand years is long enough for Imperial direct rule (via the nobility) on every world in this space.
So let’s completely ignore all the work Actionman did because you don’t like that version of the imperium.
 
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