Travellers Needed - The Future of Traveller

I agree entirely and I’ll add that the citizens of the Imperium probably think of themselves as citizens of their home world 1st, their Subsector 2nd, their sector 3rd, possibly their domain 4th than finally the Imperium. That’s not to say they will not identify themselves as imperium citizens it’s just the imperium is such a distant thing. I also suspect that many Nobels have acquired significant influence thanks to their money.
I agree with home planet - Citizen of Fist
I question the Subsector and even more the subsector.

I can easily see someone thinking they are a Citizen of Fist, a member of the Imperium. If they think about the government of Tobia Subsector it is in a bureaucratic sense. Something at least two removes away from what is impacting your own reality. The general populace of a system is often spread over more than one world, so those are the structures that will matter to them. Then the overall sense of "we are all members of the Imperium" as a sense of we are all (all these systems) in this together.
 
I agree entirely and I’ll add that the citizens of the Imperium probably think of themselves as citizens of their home world 1st, their Subsector 2nd, their sector 3rd, possibly their domain 4th than finally the Imperium.

I completely agree. People's sense of identity would be highly local. Irl, people in Hawaii sometimes get into arguments about who's a "real Hawaiian" and who's the haole (pronounce howley, the native Hawaiian word for stranger / foreigner / person who is not a native Hawaiian), despite both of their families living in Hawaii for more than 100 years and neither of their families having any native Hawaiian heritage at all (people are mostly Asian and multiracial). Offworld travel is very expensive and takes at least two weeks. Only the well-to-do would be doing it to any degree. I think many lower population worlds would have similarities to Iceland. People are frequently related, people are mostly connected in some way through relatives, friends, coworkers, and so on. Populations would be more concentrated, since people would need to live in protected environments on many worlds.
 
the overall sense of "we are all members of the Imperium" as a sense of we are all (all these systems) in this together.

I'd even say the pro-Imperial sentiment could be intense in the Spinward Marches, the Solomani Rim, and Corridor, where foreign enemies remind populations of the importance of the Imperium.
 
Taxes are an interesting thing to ponder. Do the local worlds tax the GDP and the Imperial tax comes from trade and is thus separate? Seems like it might should be. Or is it a separate tax for each? That 10 percent mentioned earlier might only be for the Imperial side and the locals have something different per world.
 
Taxes are an interesting thing to ponder. Do the local worlds tax the GDP and the Imperial tax comes from trade and is thus separate? Seems like it might should be. Or is it a separate tax for each? That 10 percent mentioned earlier might only be for the Imperial side and the locals have something different per world.

...a number of declarations made by the Emperor that removed regulations and restrictions on the abilities of the peerage to tax the Imperial citizens under their purview. pg. 88 Third Imperium.

I haven't noticed anything in the books I've reviewed that indicates that these Imperial decrees were ever reversed. It stands to reason that fiefholders can really squeeze every credit out of their fiefs if they want to. A fiefholder can tax and rent as much as he wants, and keep everything over what the Emperor and the fiefholders above him require.

Third Imperium states directly that fiefholders tax and rent their fiefs, but additional taxes like import/export duties might be levied at the starport that go directly to the Emperor or the sector duke, or both. The drama around tax collection and remittance must be intense.


 
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Speaking of which.

There probably has to be an official declaration of war, after extensive attempts at mediation.

As regards taxation, you could go with tax farming, though it's probably expected by the taxpayers that their local noble representative intercedes on their behalf if their economy can't live up to expectations.
 
I've picked some bits out of CT Library Data. will come back to it with comments in a bit.
"Feudalism: With such great distances separating stellar systems, individual responsibility and authority become of great importance.* The lmperium is divided into sectors (twenty of them), each about 32 parsecs by 40 parsecs in size. Each sector is divided into sixteen subsectors (8 by 10 parsecs). And within a (sub)sector* are perhaps thirty or forty systems, each with a star, worlds, and satellites. Individual worlds, and even entire systems, are free to govern themselves as they desire, provided that ultimate power is always accorded the Imperium.*** Interstellar government begins at the subsector level - on one world designated the subsector capital. The ruling figure at the subsector capital is a high-ranking noble selected by higher levels of government.**** This duke has a free hand in government, and is subject only to broad guidelines from his superiors.***** But at the same time, the duke owes fealty to the higher levels of government, ultimately to the Emperor himself.
The feudal approach depends greatly on. a sense of honor, one cultivated by the hereditary aristocracy. This sense of honor is very strong within the Imperium; it has proven essential to the survival of such a far-flung community."
*individual authority and the responsibility to use it in accordance with Imperial rules
**should be subsector not sector
***this is where it all starts going horribly wrong. It should say on the frontier, as it will do so later...
****are the higher levels of government higher ranking nobles or are we missing something, does the sector and above Imperial bureaucracy have a say in who is the appointed noble? Who are the faceless bureaucrats oabve the subsector level that run the Ministries and Imperial government apparatus?
*****at this point either the authors are trolling us or they are being deliberately unreliable narrators.


And lest you think these men of honour are all piety and virtue
"Instead, the sector government came up with the idea, and implemented it at the highest levels.* Given a population of 783 billion in the Marches (under direct Imperial rule)**, children in school amount to about 10% of that population. Assuming a contribution of a quarter credit per student, the campaign could produce the sum of 19.575 billion credits.
The bureaucracy simply deducted this sum from funds budgeted to education***; the responsibility for replenishment fell upon educational administrators, who could solicit donations from students (or others) for the shipbuilding campaign.
Aside from the initial notification from sector government, no further effort was necessary, no further credit transfers were needed, and the campaign was allowed to go on' for however long was necessary. Reportedly, some backwater school districts still collect for the "Starship Fund.****"
*the sector government of the Marches appears to be able to get away with quite a bit here, ignoring subsector dukes' authority.
**and there we have it ladies and gentlemen, it is all a sham, all of this talk of autonomy and home rule, the worlds of the Marches are under direct Imperial rule, they re just granted the illusion of self determination...
***the beurocracy, not the sector duke, and this bureaucracy is able to instruct education departmants all across the worlds of the Marches. The sector bureaucracy has a budget for the education of the citizens on the sector's worlds. This implies the Imperium controls the curriculum of the education establishments across the Marches, I wonder what they have to teach?
Does the sector duke set policy for the bureaucracy?
****nice to know political grift is still alive and well in the 57th century

Look what shows up again:
"On the frontiers, extensive home rule provisions allow planetary governments to choose their own forms of government, raise and maintain their own armed forces for local security, pass and enforce laws governing local conduct, and regulate (within limits) commerce."
Which, as we have seen above, is a sham. Wonder if the Marches are still being used as a psychohistory test area?

Then there is this bit about the relationship between megacorporations and the Imperium:
"A small number of lmperial regulatory agencies have power over megacorporations, and they are subject to any applicable local taxes, but, provided they do not blatantly violate lmperial sovereignty, regional managers can usually conduct their company's business as they see fit. Because a direct confrontation with the lmperium would be bad for business, intentional violation of lmperial laws is done only on a covert basis."
I wonder which agencies?

On to the next Library Data book.
"The lmperium is best considered to rule the space that separates the stars rather than the worlds themselves.* Individual worlds are left to their own devices, providing they pay their taxes, acknowledge the power of the Imperium, and obey the basic laws it promulgates.** The lmperium wields power in space, protecting trade, encouraging travel and commerce, and controlling diplomatic relations.*** lmperial power is present on worlds in the form of consulates, bureaucratic offices, and bases; occasionally larger enclaves of lmperial power are placed where they can enhance the empire's strength.*****"
*a load of old twaddle
**we now know this is explicitly false
***which includes the diplomatic relations between adjacent worlds...
****consulates - diplomats, nobles, bureaucrats; bureaucratic offices - the Ministries?; bases - Naval bases, depots, waystations, scout bases
*****larger enclaves? the personal estates of Imperial nobles?


Odd that in an Imperium that doesn't rule worlds:
"Archdukes maintain their hereditary lands and their incomes"
So at some point the Imperium came into possession of land it could grant in perpetuity.

Core sector is very different to frontier sectors...
"After thirty years of economic and diplomatic maneuvering (and occasional military action), Cleon had increased the size of the Federation, extending its control to the edge of what is now Core sector."

Note that the Federation directly controls the worlds it rules, so this little tidbit may prove that the Core sector should be all Imperial owned, controlled, and governed worlds. After a couple of centuries the entire domain of the Archduke of Sylea is likely to directly under the Archduke's control.

Now something else that is contradicted by modern authors:
"However, attempts by extra-planetary forces to seize control of a world's affairs are beyond the scope of the "safety valve" rationale. Recognizing that often some community of interest exists between a faction or state on a planet and some off-planet organization, the lmperium tolerates "assistance" as long as it is deemed appropriate to the level of legitimate interest in the affairs of the world held by the extraplanetary
organization. When it has appeared that the primary burden for the conduct of the war has been carried by an extra-planetary power, the lmperium has intervened."

This surely also means one member world can not invade another member world without the Imperium becoming involved?

One or two things noticeably absent - Ministries and the bureaucracy - especially how they tie in with the "feudal" system.
Ministies are mentioned in S:3, the bureaucracy remains a completely faceless entity.
 
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Speaking of which.

There probably has to be an official declaration of war, after extensive attempts at mediation.
Trade war.

Companies can conduct trade war, planets can go to war, do subsector dukes "trade war" rival dukes upon occasion? (I posted my rational for piracy based on this a long time ago)
As regards taxation, you could go with tax farming, though it's probably expected by the taxpayers that their local noble representative intercedes on their behalf if their economy can't live up to expectations.
The Children of the Marches example shows just how creative Imperial taxation can be.
 
Taxes are an interesting thing to ponder. Do the local worlds tax the GDP and the Imperial tax comes from trade and is thus separate? Seems like it might should be. Or is it a separate tax for each? That 10 percent mentioned earlier might only be for the Imperial side and the locals have something different per world.
10% seems to be close to normal.

We know that Drinax got demolished for imposing a 20% tax on trade.
 
Agreed. The Throne needs its army to be loyal to it alone. Though I think Imperial Army units would be raised and stationed in their home sectors, because of transportation time and costs. Planetary armies, mercenaries, and huscarles / noble household troops would perform internal security during peacetime and be the first line of defense during wartime. The Imperial Army would take over once it has mobilized and moved to the war zone.
I see the marines as being that force. It also way IMTU the imperial army is based at TL 14 (Equal to their enemies but lower than the marines). This plus some equipment limitations give the marines an upper hand. It’s easier to indoctrinate an elite force than it is a general military.
 
A few more thoughts about the "feudal" Imperium vs. historical examples of feudalism.

In historical feudalism, vassals had to provide ready military forces to their lieges because it was a barter economy. Soldiers and equipment were produced and supplied at the vassal level. The vassals held the "means of production" of military forces, so to speak. The king couldn't do this because of the limitations of one man governing the lands required to supply ready military forces necessary. Anyone he delegated it to became a vassal, and the problem repeats.

The Imperium is a money economy, so vassals simply send money to their lieges and their lieges raise and fund the military forces they want. Shipyards, military industries, and training facilities are the military means of production. The managers who control them on a daily basis have no right to command anyone but their employees, and training bases are easily controlled by a liege's or the Emperor's loyal commanders close to home. Even if a vassal owned a shipyard, the ships he produces are worthless without crews. If that vassal owned a shipyard, a training base, and a population loyal only to him, the Emperor could easily do the same. To render the Emperor powerless, vassals would have to own and fund enough shipyards, military industries, training bases, and loyal populations to out produce what the facilities the Emperor owns.

This is why in the Imperial Civil War, it wasn't sector dukes rising up, it was fleet admirals.

So why is the Imperium still feudal? Because the 11,000 worlds are owned by the Emperor and enfeoffed to trusted nobles, who are allowed to tax and rent them to the people who live there in return for the service of running the Imperial bureaucracy in their area of responsibility, ensuring their enfeoffed worlds pay taxes and obey Imperial law, and generally doing the Emperor's will.
 
But Third Imperium states "a large degree of autonomy" not "autonomy". This mean planetary governments are not completely autonomous, and therefore not independent.

And then the book states that worlds are "independent".

This is why I complain about Traveller lore inconsistencies, ...
Well, work with the definition of "autonomy" and then add the qualitative words like "a large degree of ...", or "not completely ..." before judging the implied worlds "independence".

Adding "a large degree of ..." in front of the noun "autonomy" doesn't absolutely and categorically mean the worlds are "not independent" because you are side stepping their large degree of independence implicit in the definitions. Independence is never a binary thing. It comes in various shades, and "a large degree of independence" is one such shade.

I find the word use acceptable and consistent. It is saying that they are independent with their worldly concerns and then collaborate in intergovernmental matters such as sector/sub-sector matters.
 
Well, work with the definition of "autonomy" and then add the qualitative words like "a large degree of ...", or "not completely ..." before judging the implied worlds "independence".

Adding "a large degree of ..." in front of the noun "autonomy" doesn't absolutely and categorically mean the worlds are "not independent" because you are side stepping their large degree of independence implicit in the definitions. Independence is never a binary thing. It comes in various shades, and "a large degree of independence" is one such shade.

I find the word use acceptable and consistent. It is saying that they are independent with their worldly concerns and then collaborate in intergovernmental matters such as sector/sub-sector matters.

We're arguing semantics at this point, and that's ok. We just disagree.

I think "independent" means that the worlds of the Imperium don't have to obey the Imperium unless they choose to.

I think "a large degree of independence" means the worlds of the Imperium must obey the Imperium in some things, and other than those things, they may do as they like. But, they still must comply in those things. This means they are not independent.

If the worlds of the Imperium were independent, they could flip the bird to to Imperial tax collectors, practice slavery if they so chose, fling H-bombs at each other, and secede from the Imperium, and the Imperium would have no right to say a word about it.

Edit: If the worlds of the Imperium were independent, then the Imperium would've had no right to order the reintegration of the worlds of the Solomani Sphere against their will, no right to establish bases in their star systems, and no right to conquer a quarter of those worlds by force.
 
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We just disagree.
If you would lay aside your opinions and judgements to one side, just for a moment, you would see that I did not disagree with you ...
I think "independent" means that the worlds of the Imperium don't have to obey the Imperium unless they choose to.
Yes, I would agree. And the dictionary agrees.
I think "a large degree of independence" means the worlds of the Imperium must obey the Imperium in some things, and other than those things, they may do as they like.
Yes. That makes sentence sense. (Bold emphasis mine.)
If the worlds of the Imperium were independent, they could flip the bird to to Imperial tax collectors, practice slavery if they so chose, fling H-bombs at each other, and secede from the Imperium, and the Imperium would have no right to say a word about it.
That would look mad if it didn't include rights of Imperial Citizens to travel freely to worlds/starports; or if the currency was other than the Imperial Credit; or if an IISS survey was blocked by a worldly concern; or if news was not shared with other populated worlds; or if Psionics was practiced.
I think "a large degree of independence" means .... This means they are not independent.
Well, the dictionary wouldn't agree with you. A "large degree of independence" does not mean "not independent." It means "mostly independent" (or words to that effect.) Following a dictionary, you are just arguing (contradicting) with yourself. But if you want to argue, argue with the dictionary first and if you win, then tell me what your message is.
 
Absolutes are never a thing when you talk about governments so trying to define things in those terms is ridiculous. For example most US protectorates are largely Independent is it an absolute no but like I said few if anything’s are absolutele when your talking Government arguing definitions makes no sense.
 
If you would lay aside your opinions and judgements to one side, just for a moment, you would see that I did not disagree with you ...

Yes, I would agree. And the dictionary agrees.

Yes. That makes sentence sense. (Bold emphasis mine.)

That would look mad if it didn't include rights of Imperial Citizens to travel freely to worlds/starports; or if the currency was other than the Imperial Credit; or if an IISS survey was blocked by a worldly concern; or if news was not shared with other populated worlds; or if Psionics was practiced.

Well, the dictionary wouldn't agree with you. A "large degree of independence" does not mean "not independent." It means "mostly independent" (or words to that effect.) Following a dictionary, you are just arguing (contradicting) with yourself. But if you want to argue, argue with the dictionary first and if you win, then tell me what your message is.

I guess in one sentence, my point is that the adjective of "mostly" or the descriptive phrase "large degree of" modifies the meaning of the word "independent" (or independence), from full independence in all things, which is the definition of independence, to partial independence, which means not independent.

I don't see how I'm contradicting myself, or how I'm in disagreement with dictionaries. "independent" has a different meaning than "mostly independent" or "large degree of independence".

From a general internet search:

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From https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/independent

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From https://www.dictionary.com/browse/independent

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