Traveller T20 vs Mongoose Traveller

[LotusBlossom]

As I mentioned in another post our group will be returning to Traveller soon.

We did manage several sessions of the T20 system some years back. But althought I liked it, was never sure if it felt like my school memories of traditional Traveller.

I am interested therefore, if anyone here has played the T20 and the Mongoose Traveller. How do they compare?

Thanks again guys for any input.

At the moment we can't decide which Traveller to play our new campaign with.

 

[EDG]

Three things spring to mind:

1) Support - MGT has supplements being produced for it, and is similar to CT. T20 is pretty much dead.

2) MGT is current. That means you have a better chance of finding people wanting to play it.

3) d20 = old. T20 rode the wave of the d20 OGL, when everyone was converting everything to d20 - but d20 isn't really particularly relevant anymore now that D&D4e is out.

Other than that, pick whatever you feel is a better system for you and your group. Personally I think if you want something more like your old memories of Traveller then you're much better off with Mongoose Traveller.

 

[rust]

Apart from likes and dislikes, I think that Mongoose Traveller would be
a good choice, because Mongoose intends to support it for at least 10
years with new supplements and adventures, while T20 is pretty much
dead.

Oops, EDG drew faster ... :shock:

 

[Klaus Kipling]

T20, I thought, is pretty excellent at capturing the spirit of CT. Seems like a D20 simulation of it. However, D20 type games have a real problem when it comes to prior history.

It's quite likely a character will be level 4 after the first term, level 6 after the second, 7 after the third, and then not to get any levels for the fourth term. If you really go for it, especially in military careers with medals, you could end up with a very old character at level 10 or even 12. Seems a bit high for a beginning character.

The other issue is that it's easy to compound errors in selecting skills and feats when doing multiple levels. I used to go through chargen several times with the same character, and the numbers never added up properly. It's also easy to forget skills crucial for the concept when doing so many levels, something less likely to happen if you do it level by level a la DnD.

Anyway, that's my twopenneth.

 

[MJD]

I was/am involved with both, (which is a plus, umm, isn't it?)

Basically if you like d20 rules, classes and levels then T20 is maybe a better choice. Mongoose Traveller on the other hand is currently in print and has new stuff coming out for it. Long-term, buying into Mongoose Traveller is a better option.

I also beleive it's a better game and more directly compatible with the traditional Traveller materials.

 

[MJD]

At risk of being a bit egotistical...

Mongoose Traveller means you can use the excellent Avenger stuff by, umm, me and my band of cut-throats. On the other hand I won't be working for QLI ever again.

In short, T20 is a dead end while the Mongoose version has both Mongoose and Avenger producing stuff.

 

[EDG]

T20, I thought, is pretty excellent at capturing the spirit of CT. Seems like a D20 simulation of it. However, D20 type games have a real problem when it comes to prior history.

I don't think it was very well integrated or explained to be honest... I remember I had a hell of a time figuring out the relation between classes, careers, and levels. T20 was basically CT shoehorned into fixed D&D concepts... it could have worked better if it was a completely new OGL d20 product that tossed out those concepts and started again from scratch.

 

[GamerDude]

I was an "early adopter" of T20, but after my book arrived wasn't as impressed... And I really had a hard time getting people to want to play. They did create some newish races (like the one where it was humans with an extra set of arms) and other things.

Fortunately, that's not the case with MGT... that my friends/players really like (when they aren't whining about the lack of a 'HP' system).

 

[LotusBlossom]

Thanks guys for such brilliant and such QUICK replies

Decision made. I have already order Mongoose Traveller.

 

[Infojunky]

Most of T20 works, except for character generation using the terms system set out. It suffers from awkward layout. My only other problem with it is task resolution, I personally don't like linear die throws.

MGT on the other hand has a lot going for it, most notably most of CT and MT material is easily usable with little modification.

 

[GypsyComet]

Most of T20 works, except for character generation using the terms system set out. It suffers from awkward layout.

It suffers from the "D20" trademark restrictions AND awkward layout. It does work, however, if the whole D&D experience model (big discrete steps called "class levels") works for you. Even Hunter is aware that it isn't everyone's cuppa.

As for Klaus Kitling's comment about levels, well, yes. From a class & level point of view, however, those first four years ARE going to be big learning experiences, and you will be slowing down after that. The part of the D&D mindset to get away from, however, is that a character just entering play is a "starting character". That has never been the Traveller approach, and it does not apply to T20.

In the end, T20 is a far more extreme adaption of D20 than most anyone else published (True20 being an obvious exception), and it captures the play style of Traveller, IMO. Is it perfect? Well, no, but that's a Traveller tradition.

 

[Pagan priest]

Hmm, I think I am in a minority here, but I like T20. The gaming group I usually play with playes d20, and it is a lot easier for me to introduce new things to them if there is already some familiarity. Plus, I can work the d20 system, so I can create new stuff as I need it. For example, I am currently giving some though to several prestge classes, mostly based on the old CT material.

Perhaps the wording could have been a tiny bit better WRT core class/service class/career, but thinking it through logically makes it obvious.

Unfortunately, T20 has the unsurmountable problem of not getting any new material, coupled with a license that is due to expire in (I believe) 2010. This is where MGT wins. If you really like the d20 system and can live without any new material, then T20 is a good way to go. On the other hand, if you like getting new stuff then definately MGT. Although, even if you absolutely were fanatical about T20, I have been given to understand that people have had problems in receiving things that they have paid for from the maker of T20.

 

[Emryys]

The T20 rules are ...OK

But the Gateway to Destiny setting stuff is excellent... written by a certain someone

 

[MJD]

Yup, Gateway to Destiny is excellent. I should know, I writed it.

I used a slightly modified T4 for a long while, quite happily, and would have continued to do so but for political considerations. That is, I converted to T20 because I felt I should have some familarity with the rules set I was supposedly line editor for. (!)

I edited the T20 rules into readable English from the original draft by Hunter Gordon. The end result wasn't perfect but believe me, it was more useable than the original.

(As an aside, before vanishing again Hunter claimed he was working on a new ruleset called SF20. I won't be involved with that so what appears will be written in Hunter's own style. Then you'll see what I mean by the comments above!!!)

Anyhow, T20 is overall pretty decent but it's a conversion of a very different style of rules to Traveller and there were some compromises. And of course QLI is dead, with no significant releases for the past 4 years and no more likely.

Gateway to Destiny could be used with any rules set, but in good conscience* I have to point out that - to the best of my knowledge - ordering from QLI is iffy at best. Hunter is a one-man show and he's missing. From the posts on COTI it looks like orders are not being fulfilled.

Maybe that will get fixed but I'd tread carefully.


* What I mean by that is I don't want anyone placing an order for GTD because of my reputation or a recommendation here, only to lose their money. I'd not really be to blame but all the same...

 

[EDG]

* What I mean by that is I don't want anyone placing an order for GTD because of my reputation or a recommendation here, only to lose their money. I'd not really be to blame but all the same...

To be fair, QLI isn't the only place one can order it from - at least as PDF - and those other places would be a lot more reliable.

However, the big problem as I see it is that if anyone bought GtD from anywhere, then Martin wouldn't see any money for it because Hunter's been defaulting on the royalties he owes him for it... so Martin would get nothing for it while all the money sinks into the black hole that is QLI.

So if anyone wanted to actively support Martin I'd recommend either buying the stuff he's written for Mongoose or the stuff he's done for Avenger, because at least that way he gets something for it. Buying QLI material on the other hand - even the stuff Martin wrote - won't help him (or any QLI authors for that matter) at all.

(Sorry if that sounds harsh on QLI, but that's the reality of the situation - throwing money at QLI doesn't appear to be doing anything to get it out of the mess it's in and doesn't support Martin either. Of course a potential customer may not care about supporting anyone, so long as he gets a copy of the book - which is fair enough - but I think the customer should still be aware that money spent at QLI isn't actually doing anything to encourage further products from QLI or from Martin. IF Hunter ever shows up again and gets QLI in order and pays Martin all the money he owes him (unlikely on all counts) then maybe it'd help, but I suspect it's already way past the time that QLI can save itself).

 

[atpollard]

I was never a big fan of the D20 OGL mechanic, but I am not sure that this topic is being completely fair to the T20 strengths.

Is D20 Modern compatible with T20 (adding lots of gear and gritty combat rules)?

Is D20 Space compatible with T20 (adding lots of gear and gritty space rules)?

Is T20 sufficiently compatible with D20 core rules to allow the use of non-traveller adventures in T20?

If the answer to all of these is NO, then T20 deserved the bashing it just received. If the answer is YES, then the 'MGT is Better' overlooks the fact that RIGHT NOW I can buy lots of D20 stuff and very little MGT Stuff.

For me, the two systems - 2D6 (CT/MT/MGT) and D20 (T20) - are mechanically Very Different. I play the system that I prefer. You should play the system that YOU prefer (IMHO).

 

[GypsyComet]

Is D20 Modern compatible with T20 (adding lots of gear and gritty combat rules)?

Is D20 Space compatible with T20 (adding lots of gear and gritty space rules)?

Not directly, because T20 was written before D20 Modern or D20 Space, and WotC went with the rather horrid Alternity rules for D20 Space and a Pulp Adventure feel for D20 Modern.

Is T20 sufficiently compatible with D20 core rules to allow the use of non-traveller adventures in T20?

Since none of the other D20 users published any useful body of SF adventures, this is moot. With the use of "76 Gunmen", however, most of the CT/MT/TNE body of adventures (and nearly anything else that is subject appropriate) are easily adapted.

If the answer to all of these is NO, then T20 deserved the bashing it just received. If the answer is YES, then the 'MGT is Better' overlooks the fact that RIGHT NOW I can buy lots of D20 stuff and very little MGT Stuff.

See my last point.

For me, the two systems - 2D6 (CT/MT/MGT) and D20 (T20) - are mechanically Very Different. I play the system that I prefer. You should play the system that YOU prefer (IMHO).

No argument there.

I WILL argue with anyone who says that T20 "doesn't work". It does work, but has issues due (as I've already mentioned) to an unfortunate layout philosophy and because of the strictures of the D20 trademark license. As a result T20 "reads ugly" if you don't have the later Players Guide (released under only the OGL, and thus not bound by the D20 trademark license restrictions), and rather obviously shares many of the complexity faults of D20 in general.

It is NOT, however, inherently broken and unusable. It may not be "Traveller" to some people, and it may not appeal to the "but I have 120 hit points!" D&D crowd (a gun will kill you just as dead at 15th level as at 1st), but it does successfully meld the two mechanically.

If you like the D20 task mechanics,
If you like class & level experience models (of which T20's is one of the more flexible),
If you want to be able to add Pulp instead of having to filter it out,
Don't ignore T20 out of hand.

 

[Allensh]

I was a playtester on T20...and aside from some bits of the ship construction system (basically an upgraded High Guard)and vehicle rules, I won't play it. Mongoose Traveller is better; I highly recommend it.

Allen

 

[qstor]

Some of the people on the Citizen of the Imperium boards tried to convert T20 to D20 Modern/Future. But it never got off the ground so to speak. It shouldn't be hard to do a 'fast' and lose conversion HOWEVER the ships would be a lot of work to catch the feel of CT.

The T20 ship rules are mostly High Guard and D20 Future uses its own ship construction rules. Hunter converted the Scout Ship but I haven't seen any other conversions of Traveller ships to D20 Future.

Mike

 

[Imperator58]

I was so excited when d20 Traveller was announced. Traveller compatible with my other favorite games! Like GURPS, but a lot better! I preordered the hideously expensive book.
Then the pain started.
Six months later, the book finally came out and everyone seemed to be getting theirs but me! It was impossible to find some kind of customer service number; and when the volume finally showed up, it turned out to be so riddled with errata that it was virtually unusable. Quiklink Interactive released errata for it, and it was like thirty pages - I'm not exaggerating. Page after page of whole charts that were garbage. I wound up putting the book on the shelf in disgust and that was the end of that.
I'd never buy anything from that company again. The experiance was awful, start to finish. I sincerely hope Quiklink Interactive died out with their Traveller line - such as it was.
Thank YOU, Mongoose, for your good stuff, your support, and for bringing traveller back to it's roots.