Traveller and Realism

[aspqrz]

So, Somalia.

Is shipping in the Traveller universe as cheap and fast and available in similar massive amounts as international shipping in today's real world? The less shipment volume you have and the more expensive shipping is, the less tech you could import from other worlds for reasonable prices.

Hmm.

The single main purpose of the existence of the Imperium is the promotion and protection of Interstellar trade.

For this reason the Scouts, Navy, Army, Marines, Diplomatic Corps etc. exist.

Now, you may or may not remember, but in the original CTrav series there was a game called "Trillion Credit Squadron" ...

One Squadron, attempting to build it for no more than 1 trillion credits.

The Imperium had scores of fleets, maybe hundreds if you include the varuious planetary navies.

How did they raise, train, maintain, and supply these forces?

On Strephon's good looks?

Nope. On a percentage of the revenue raised from taxing interstellar trade and commerce.

I trust that answers your question?

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[Ishmael]

Trillion Credit Squadron use 1 trillion credits as a way of forcing play balance by giving each side equal resources, much like the points used in 'Assault' or 'Boots and Saddles' to set up scenarios. It was never meant to model Imperial economies.

I think the base problem is the way UWP's were formed.
In all the versions I know of ( I don't know mgt, though ), tech level is modified mostly by starport type and population...two values that are pure randomness; dice rolls without any modifiers. Starports are placed without regard to trade volumes or anything....population is simply 2d6-2 with no dm's.
Population 5 is the average ( 2d6-2 ) which is a paltry fraction of even New York City.
If it can be assumed that wealth is proportional to labor, then the average world doesn't have a sufficient labor force to be industrialized and hi-tech.
By the same assumption, one hi-pop world (pop A ) has an equivalent tax payment to the Imperium as tens of thousands ( hundreds of thousands?.. ) of pop 5 worlds.
If the Imperium pays for its fleets, etc with taxes, then its plain that its paid for by a small minority of worlds within its borders. Most world would not be able to find enough pilots for a 'fleet' much less build it on its own.

To base 'realism' on such an unrealistic foundation as the OTU methods for the UWP is folly.

 

[simonh]

Is shipping in the Traveller universe as cheap and fast and available in similar massive amounts as international shipping in today's real world? The less shipment volume you have and the more expensive shipping is, the less tech you could import from other worlds for reasonable prices.

I suppose it's a little different because interstellar travel requires at least TL 12 so backwaters in the Imperium are dependent on higher technology interstellar infrastructure than they can operate themselves.

To base 'realism' on such an unrealistic foundation as the OTU methods for the UWP is folly.

This is true, and the main point of my original post. The OTU is just the way it is. IMHO there's no point in worrying about it. I for one am for embracing the rich, varied setting it provides for adventure and get on with the game. Technically the official rules don't really allow for a Somalia, but if you want a Somalia type world for your game, I say go for it. The setting is just a starting point and inevitably a flawed one, but roleplaying is all about the game.

I suppose what I'm trying to say is, the Imperium is the way it is, there's really no point trying to change it or warp the game with post-hoc rationalizations. if you want things to be different either create a personal forked version and don't expect anyone else to care, or create your own setting. Bot are perfectly good and viable alternatives, but IMHO trying to bend the official setting or expecting a publisher like Mongoose to do so is not in the game's best interests.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I think you are looking at this the wrong way. EVERY TL2 world out there could be like Somalia!

TL2 is what they can sustain on their own (basically iron working). Cell phones are IMPORTED HI TECH items that they own.

If trade stopped, the phones could not be repaired or serviced and would quickly stop functioning in that area.

DON'T let yourself get caught up in the TL as the absolute limit on what a planet has. They will have TL15 items, just not very many of them and they will be in the hands of offworlders (Imperials) or the rich.

Grav cars are on EVERY PLANET in the Imperium. How many depends on the TL of the world and the Trade Codes...

 

[simonh]

DON'T let yourself get caught up in the TL as the absolute limit on what a planet has. They will have TL15 items, just not very many of them and they will be in the hands of offworlders (Imperials) or the rich.

I don't think it's an absolute limit, I think it tells you what most people have available to them and what you're going to come across most of the time.

I thing the takeaway from this is that any dogmatic interpretation of TL is going to have failure points. The best approach is to keep an open mind and use the UPPs as a starting point for your imagination.

Simon Hibbs

 

[FallingPhoenix]

I thing the takeaway from this is that any dogmatic interpretation of TL is going to have failure points. The best approach is to keep an open mind and use the UPPs as a starting point for your imagination.

Simon Hibbs

Hear, hear!!!!

And for those times when you have a brain block...well, that's what we on the forums are for!

 

[cpip]

I thing the takeaway from this is that any dogmatic interpretation of TL is going to have failure points. The best approach is to keep an open mind and use the UPPs as a starting point for your imagination.

Any dogmatic interpretation of ANY part of the UPP (excepting maybe the physical ones) is going to lead to failure points and headaches, I think.

 

[jamming]

A Lower Tech World:
1. can be a redeveloping economy still savaged by the "long night", with a cultural fear of being tech dependent.
2. it could be limited by unneeded local markets, due to nearby world with high production capacity, low on planet manufacturing availability, or even a lack of trained techs.
3. they export minerals but all equipment is imported in
4. the world is red-zoned by the Imperial Scout Service.
5. Could be settled by Old Form Amish or equivalent
6. A Radical Low-Footprint Environmentalist World
7. A Primitive Earth Culture relocated to save its cultural heritage.
8. A dictator might artificially lower tech production so that more people benefit from having jobs instead of robots doing everything. Beside if you only educate your loyal military class to use higher technlogy its harder to overthrow the Dictator.

But Ishmael's example is probably one of the higher percentages, don't make the mistake that all high tech worlds, medium tech, and low tech worlds are limited to only a few forms. The Planetary Profile is a starting place, not the ending place.

Jim

If one sees tech level as being local manufacturing capacity, world's like 'new somalia' are a snap.

low tech yet able to import anything it can afford.
Of course it would also have to import proper replacement parts and support too, but a some repairs can be made with files and hammers and other lo-tech tools.

The main issue would be trade balance..
Without an outside benefactor shoring up 'new somalia's' economy, they won't be able to afford much, because if they run a huge trade deficit year after year, their economy will collapse completely. They have to be able to export something at least.

new somalia can be made with present rules so long as 'tech' is local production, even if higher tech imports can be had ( limited by neighboring trade partner's tech, of course ).

 

[pasuuli]

I thing the takeaway from this is that any dogmatic interpretation of TL is going to have failure points. The best approach is to keep an open mind and use the UPPs as a starting point for your imagination.

Any dogmatic interpretation of ANY part of the UPP (excepting maybe the physical ones) is going to lead to failure points and headaches, I think.

Hear, hear.

The Universal World Profile is a barebones tool. Starport and world size and world population all vary independently in order to produce many different worlds in the same region, because that's interesting.

Results will be bizarre, and there are other ways to do it. Traveller does it this way. But, remember that Mongoose Traveller actually has variations in the core book, based on Malenfant's ideas I think, for different effects.

 

[Jame Rowe]

Generally I've been altering the rules to say that "if you have a world which is Marslike or less, the minimum tech the population will be able to produce locally will be at least 8," accompanied by saying that "if you have a world which has a C port then local tech is at least 7, for a B port at least 8 and an A port at least 9."