Traveller and Realism

[simonh]

In the beginning there was D&D, in which the entire countryside was littered with ancient dungeons full of heavily armed monsters guarding fabulous treasures for no adequate reason.

And then there was Traveller, in which cripplingly primitive worlds existed a leisurely week's travel away from fabulously advanced ones, in a thousand year old trading empire.

Let's face it, these things could probably have been thought through a little bit better, but then again would that have produced better environments for roleplaying? D&D was (and still is) all about the fighting the monsters and the grabbing the treasure. Traveller to a large extent is still about the hopping about the worlds and the wowing the primitives wit the cool tech. Will someone please tell me why this is a bad thing?

I think there's a clear distinction to be drawn here. Yes I know that the Traveller universe is idiosyncratic and it stretches credulity to believe that it would realy have turned out the way it did, given the official history. IMHO this is not such a big deal because it's done. That's just the way the world is and I try not to think about it too hard. Most players and GMs just accept the status quo, and that's fine. If you want to come up with a contorted post-rationalization for why the Traveller universe is the way it is, be my guest.

On the other hand, I don't think it's reasonable to crimp current games based on any such post-rationalization. Just because a low tech world sits next to a high tech world, there's no reason to prevent the characters going into business exploting these opportunities. There's a difference between bending the background to rationalize it and bending in-game behaviour. Doing so would move these awkward problems out from the shadows and into the full light of day and doing so can only damage the game.

This is why I'm prepared to accept that a low tech world exists next door to a high tech one, but won't accept daftnesses such as high tech gear costing 600x more on the low tech planet.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Jame Rowe]

There should be a rule that low-tech planets next to high-tech planets get a boost to TL-9.

Of course, you could just make the planet an amber or a red zone... :twisted:

 

[aspqrz]

It's not a bad thing, Simon.

Not a bad thing at all.

Even the original premise was fine ... because there simply wasn't much detail provided in the 3LBB (the "fair enough" old days ;-).

The "problem" only exists because, over the years, lots of details have been added by "official" products ... and it's the additional detail that, by and large, is the problem.

Most of us (OK, I'm making an assumption here, but bear with me even if it doesn't actually include your gaming group, gentle reader) have set their Traveller campaigns in the Spinward Marches for that reason.

(And, if not the Spinward Marches, something very much like it)

Because its on the edge of everything. Where such idiocies as a low tech primitive world 1 week away from a high tech advanced world might make some sense because the whole area is newly explored/discovered.

Only once the backstory made the Spinward Marches as old as the Imperium itself (or close thereto) did it make that explanation ... improbable.

Like I said, the additional information was what created the problem.

Many, if not all, of the alternate Traveller sectors developed by various people have been more like what the Spinward Marches were originally assumed to be ... a thinly settled, newly explored (and often unexplored), border region for this very reason.

The problem is not with Traveller, the idea, but the way the OTU has been detailed over the years. :roll:

The 3LBB were fine (well, mostly).

I tend to think that the best time/place to set a Traveller campaign in the OTU is in the years at the beginning of the founding of the current Imperium, when they are basically rediscovering the lost worlds of the old Imperium, either that or the years of the Nth Interstellar War and the Rule of Man, perhaps.

YMMV, of course!

Phil
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Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[SSWarlock]

There should be a rule that low-tech planets next to high-tech planets get a boost to TL-9.

Of course, you could just make the planet an amber or a red zone... :twisted:

Nope, Traveller is just fine as is. Otherwise, one may as well say Africa today should have the same tech level as Europe because a number of the African countries were European colonies.

Yet they don't have the same TL, do they?

Naw, Traveller is just fine.

 

[simonh]

Nope, Traveller is just fine as is. Otherwise, one may as well say Africa today should have the same tech level as Europe because a number of the African countries were European colonies.

Yet they don't have the same TL, do they?

Actualy, Traveller is saying that these African countries will have the same tech level they have now 1000 years in the future, and that being next to an ever-advancing Europe will make little to no difference for them.

Simon Hibbs

 

[-Daniel-]

It's not a bad thing, Simon.

Not a bad thing at all.

Even the original premise was fine ... because there simply wasn't much detail provided in the 3LBB (the "fair enough" old days ;-).

The "problem" only exists because, over the years, lots of details have been added by "official" products ... and it's the additional detail that, by and large, is the problem.

I think Phil did a good job of articulating my thoughts (but he did it better).

I found it is often the later publications that present me with the harder situations to accept as “realistic”. But at the same time I sometimes find myself tired of trying to make every aspect of a game realistic. Sometimes I just accept it at face value and run with it.

Daniel

 

[FallingPhoenix]

Of course, I often discover some seriously cool situations/adventure ideas through trying to explain things that seem, at first glance, completely improbable.

FP, who's starting to think most planets would probably need more than one starport to handle the kinds of traffic a TL 9+ world would seem to have...

 

[zozotroll]

Small black Dragon kin, figutrre out how many Hulls would be needed to get the USA its daily oil suppy. Partiqularly if they are all far traders.

I am certainly with you on the number of starports.

 

[Brass Jester]

I avoided the 'realism' lo-tech/hi-tech problem in my Outreach campaign (with a few specialised areas). Outreach charts the expansion of Earth into neighboring systems [with a fair bit of poetic licence thrown in!] The early colonies were established by STL 'sleeper' ships and had to 'adapt or die' at the other end. They went out with the best tech available at the time of launch. It is quite fascinating to explore how the colony develops (or not), and also explains why there are colonies on utterly crap worlds. Some STL's missed their intended destination and ended up somewhere else, one is still going. These became 'Lost Colonies' and some did end up at a lower TL, based on how the colony turned out.
Once the Jump Drive was developed, following the discovery of the catalytc properties of Hatherium, which only occurs in asteroid belts, new colonies were founded. The TL is determined by the TL of the sponsoring Corporation or Government, modified by the local conditions (need for life-support etc).
Current commercial Jump is Jump-2; so many crud systems have to have 'something', even if it's only a refuelling point. Also, I introduced gas clouds and nebula/proto stars in certain hexes; these cannot be Jumped through, effectively creating 'terrain'.
As new Tech becomes available; it is relatvely easy to work out how it will spread. Lost Colonies make interesting possibilities; one colony (on Orionis) had become almost Amish in outlook and rejects anything above Tech 3, And one (which hasn't been recontacted yet, so I'm not going to tell you where it is), is actually Tech D due to stuff they found on the planet.

Incidentally, most of this history of the Outreach Campaign was created over the years using a variation of the Character Generation System from CT. Events are rolled over a four-year period, gives system expansion, wars, incidents, Tech increases, recontacts etc.. This ties in with CharGen so I can relate things to 'historical' happenings.

 

[JimG]

The "problem" only exists because, over the years, lots of details have been added by "official" products ... and it's the additional detail that, by and large, is the problem.

...

I tend to think that the best time/place to set a Traveller campaign in the OTU is in the years at the beginning of the founding of the current Imperium, when they are basically rediscovering the lost worlds of the old Imperium, either that or the years of the Nth Interstellar War and the Rule of Man, perhaps.

YMMV, of course!

Phil
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Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

Well said, Phil.

That's exactly why I'd never be able to run a game in the canon OTU.
I'm "borrowing" from the history and setting liberally for MTU, but placing the game in an area where the Imperium is expanding. The inconsistancies and other oddities I find I can either cut or find a way to justify with the frontier setting.

BTW, I still own an original copy of Space Opera. After all these years I've never managed to find a group to play it, but I do periodically raid the books for ideas.

 

[aspqrz]

There should be a rule that low-tech planets next to high-tech planets get a boost to TL-9.

Of course, you could just make the planet an amber or a red zone... :twisted:

Nope, Traveller is just fine as is. Otherwise, one may as well say Africa today should have the same tech level as Europe because a number of the African countries were European colonies.

Yet they don't have the same TL, do they?

Naw, Traveller is just fine.

So, Somalia.

Largest number of mobile phones in Africa, outside of Egypt, and growing at around 10% per year, the last couple of years. Satellite uplinks to connect their "system" to the rest of the world. Cheapest rates in all of Africa. Most extensive system, outside of Egypt, I guess, in all of Africa.

Internet usage is one of the higher levels in Africa as well.

And this in what is, to all intents and purposes, barely a step above anarchy ... and a TL2, barely TL3, anarchy at that.

So, tell me again, "Traveller is just fine" ... because, as written, it can recreate Somalia as a planet?

Phil

 

[-Daniel-]

When I play an RPG game I think of it a lot like watching a movie. As long as the game is fun and the level of realism is enough for me to suspend disbelief, that is as much realism as I need. I can enjoy the game without every aspect being 100% realistic. Now having said that I do want to comment on Phil’s challenge:

So, Somalia.

Largest number of mobile phones in Africa, outside of Egypt, and growing at around 10% per year, the last couple of years. Satellite uplinks to connect their "system" to the rest of the world. Cheapest rates in all of Africa. Most extensive system, outside of Egypt, I guess, in all of Africa.

Internet usage is one of the higher levels in Africa as well.

And this in what is, to all intents and purposes, barely a step above anarchy ... and a TL2, barely TL3, anarchy at that.

So, tell me again, "Traveller is just fine" ... because, as written, it can recreate Somalia as a planet?

Phil

While I understand and agree with Phil that the rules as written would have a hard time creating a whole planet like Somalia, I am unsure this matters to me. By that I mean having played RPGs for more then 30 years I have found the shift away from GMs thinking for themselves and a growing reliance on being spoon fed by the rules to be a major issue for me. I do not need or want a rule system to try and cover every possible outcome. I am OK that if I want a planet that is like Somalia I can just write it up and it is so in my TU.

What I am trying to say is that I do not think MGT needs to make a planet wide Somalia to be “just fine” as it is.

Daniel

 

[aspqrz]

What I am trying to say is that I do not think MGT needs to make a planet wide Somalia to be “just fine” as it is.

But, at the very least, you should be able to do it in the "Scouts" book ... or, at least, come sorta vaguely close to it

Hmm. To Do List for Space Opera II (can't call it that, sadly) ... based on the OGL for Traveller ... Make it Possible to Design Somalia :lol:

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[FallingPhoenix]

I seem to remember something in the MGT book about the TL not necessarily applying to every sort of item/equipment/group of people on the planet.

Doesn't that leave enough room for Somalia?

Also...along similar lines. Where does a low tech world get the money to buy high tech offworld stuff? Does everyone want curios that badly?

Seems like that might be a good reason that a low tech planet could be very close to a high tech one and still be low tech.

 

[-Daniel-]

Hmm. To Do List for Space Opera II (can't call it that, sadly) ... based on the OGL for Traveller ... Make it Possible to Design Somalia :lol:

You could even call it New Somalia. :wink:

OT: Are you really going to make a "SOII" type offering? I am interested if you are.

Daniel

 

[aspqrz]

I seem to remember something in the MGT book about the TL not necessarily applying to every sort of item/equipment/group of people on the planet.

Doesn't that leave enough room for Somalia?

Also...along similar lines. Where does a low tech world get the money to buy high tech offworld stuff? Does everyone want curios that badly?

Seems like that might be a good reason that a low tech planet could be very close to a high tech one and still be low tech.

The point is that High Tech stuff will be available, just not as ubiquitous as it is on the world of origin.

Taking the Somali example, not a whole lot of mobile phone coverage outside of the major population centers (but these have a much larger percentage of the "planetary" population than the 10% or so a TL0-2 world should be limited to), but pretty damn good inside them ... and the electrical power needs of the major population centers are provided by privately owned diesel generators (run on imported diesel, of course) that provide power on a block by block basis with no real central planning or linking.

ISTR in one of the old FASA adventures (IIRC) or magazines a comment about some PCs being surprised when a desert nomad on a low tech world, a bedouin equivalent culture, whips out his satphone to check the local weather from the spaceport's satellite net.

That's the sort of thing that PCs should run across, I guess, I don't mean to imply that every resident of a low tech planet will have satphones by any means. But the wealthier ones will, likely.

And, of course, as far as weapons go ... well, why would you stick to Bows, Swords, Spears and the like when, as the jingle went, "God made man, but Colonel Colt made them equal" ...

Firearms, slugthrowers, are incredibly cheap, in relative terms. I mean, an AK costs only a few hundred dollars to make and, of course, you can buy them through the frontier fence between SAfrica and Mozambique, I believe, for around 100-200 Rand (say US$20-30) ... obsolete models are always available in large numbers ... Stg-44s were shipped in large numbers into post WW2 Africa and Asia by the Russians, essentially free since they didn't need them!

And how much is your life worth?

Or how much is your government desirious of stability ... Power grows from the barrel of a gun" as Mao so cogently said ... so guns are everywhere, at least where there's a government outpost, anyway.

Doesn't mean every inhabitant of stellar-Somalia has a TL15 personal computer, satphone, PGMP-15 and Battle Dress, though :wink:

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au[/i]

 

[aspqrz]

Hmm. To Do List for Space Opera II (can't call it that, sadly) ... based on the OGL for Traveller ... Make it Possible to Design Somalia :lol:

You could even call it New Somalia. :wink:

OT: Are you really going to make a "SOII" type offering? I am interested if you are.

That's the plan ... of course, at the rate PGD (that's me, "Phalanx Games Design" at RPGNow) produces games/supplements ... about one a year ... that doesn't mean it'll be this year, even

Currently I am working to finish the fourth of (at least five, for the moment) books for a new version of "Road to Armageddon" and hope to have them ready for release before the end of this year, which will be two years since "Displaced" was done ... of course, when I get bored with RtA I tend to fiddle with equipment for Traveller/SOII ("Space Viking", perhaps?) so it may be a but quicker ... and there's a lot of old stuff I fiddled with in the last 20 years that I still have in eFormat on my hard drive (and backups, of course) that I will probably end up incorporating.

But it can't be called Space Opera (FGU thinks it owns the title ... it probably doesn't, but they've shown a proclivity to threaten to sue anyone who wanted to use even a variation) and, for much the same reason, the races and background from SO can't be used ... tho, perhaps, maybe the Confederacy and Korellian Empires can be.

So, a while off yet.

But it should be quicker if I don't have to write a new set of core rules 8)

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[Brass Jester]

Dafrca wrote:
By that I mean having played RPGs for more then 30 years I have found the shift away from GMs thinking for themselves and a growing reliance on being spoon fed by the rules to be a major issue for me

Totally agree with this; I've seen it happening in many games and on many forums - where's the creativity gone?

 

[Ishmael]

If one sees tech level as being local manufacturing capacity, world's like 'new somalia' are a snap.

low tech yet able to import anything it can afford.
Of course it would also have to import proper replacement parts and support too, but a some repairs can be made with files and hammers and other lo-tech tools.

The main issue would be trade balance..
Without an outside benefactor shoring up 'new somalia's' economy, they won't be able to afford much, because if they run a huge trade deficit year after year, their economy will collapse completely. They have to be able to export something at least.

new somalia can be made with present rules so long as 'tech' is local production, even if higher tech imports can be had ( limited by neighboring trade partner's tech, of course ).

 

[Golan2072]

So, Somalia.

Largest number of mobile phones in Africa, outside of Egypt, and growing at around 10% per year, the last couple of years. Satellite uplinks to connect their "system" to the rest of the world. Cheapest rates in all of Africa. Most extensive system, outside of Egypt, I guess, in all of Africa.

Internet usage is one of the higher levels in Africa as well.

And this in what is, to all intents and purposes, barely a step above anarchy ... and a TL2, barely TL3, anarchy at that.

So, tell me again, "Traveller is just fine" ... because, as written, it can recreate Somalia as a planet?

Is shipping in the Traveller universe as cheap and fast and available in similar massive amounts as international shipping in today's real world? The less shipment volume you have and the more expensive shipping is, the less tech you could import from other worlds for reasonable prices.