Traveller 5E

[MongooseBella]

I've always seen SOC (in addition to some of the things mentioned) as 'the way you were raised', e.g. mannerisms, how you walk, talk, whether you know which forks are what etc. Instead of it just being a strict measure of your standing in a particular society, it also covers how you act. So that might be always opening the door for others, or it could be not making eye contact with people below or higher than you.

 

[Condottiere]

Then Miller got that wrong, and GURPS got it right.

 

[Sigtrygg]

In a caste based or class based society then your status at birth is as much a characteristic as your STR etc. A class ridden feudal society very much warrants a Soc characteristic.

The Charted Space setting has class and caste based societies at the Interstellar level.

Imperium - noble rank, class, status
Zhodani - caste
Vilani - caste

 

[Vormaerin]

I've always seen SOC (in addition to some of the things mentioned) as 'the way you were raised', e.g. mannerisms, how you walk, talk, whether you know which forks are what etc. Instead of it just being a strict measure of your standing in a particular society, it also covers how you act. So that might be always opening the door for others, or it could be not making eye contact with people below or higher than you.

But these are things that are generally pretty mutable. Most PCs have been off their homeworld for 16 to 20 years in some career are going to learn things that obscure that unless they intentionally cling to those cultural elements. Equally importantly, those things are not going to be the same on different worlds. How you act is culturally based. I suppose you could say that SOC is just relevant for dealing with Imperial officialdom and spacer culture.... But that's not how it is presented in the rules.

In a caste based or class based society then your status at birth is as much a characteristic as your STR etc. A class ridden feudal society very much warrants a Soc characteristic.

The Charted Space setting has class and caste based societies at the Interstellar level.

Imperium - noble rank, class, status
Zhodani - caste
Vilani - caste

Yeah, you can play up the class consciousness of the Imperium, but Traveller's rules are not just about Charted Space. And, other than nobles existing, there's very little in the presentation of Imperial society that suggests it is that level of class stratification. You don't see it in the sourcebooks or the adventures except for the occasional pompous noble.

"Your parents were plebs on Menorb, scum. You might be CEO of Moneybags, Inc now but you're still a plebian scumbag. Get in the back with the other muck, this restaurant doesn't serve your kind" (since becoming a Rank 6 corporate official is only +1 SOC) just isn't how the setting is presented.

 

[rinku]

It's the Military Academy that gives +1 SOC on Honors, not regular University, just FYI.

Yeah, I misread it while scrolling around. My bad. SOC can rarely increase in University from the event roll, though.

Entertainer, NAVY and Scholar are the three that have SOC as a PD option. Navy was always the traditional ticket to aristocracy in Traveller.

Entertainer has so many shots at +SOC in mustering out that I doubt many would be rolling on PD just to get it. Jack-of-all-Trades and +INT are the prizes on that table. Plus they get SOC +1 at rank 5, too.

To me it seems that it shows soft power and intellectual achievement are held in higher esteem than even high military rank (and it IS worth noting that below command ranks the soldiers get no more social advancement than a blue collar Citizen or a Free Trader). We KNOW that the default culture is aristocratic... the relative social immobility of grubby commerce ,ight suggest that by the Far Future they've gotten savvy to the real worth of the business mindset? Or that it's a bit like Feudal Japan where the social order was Nobility > Farmers > Merchants

However, I'd also note that Corporate is one of only three careers with SOC as their Survival roll (the others being Artist and Dilettante). So characters that are low SOC generally do not last long. At least Artists DO have a way to build up SOC; aside from PD, there's an event that can increase it. Middle class Suits (SOC 6-8) still have to be a bit lucky to last long enough to get to CEO. Mostly, those jobs are going to go to characters who started at SOC 9+. The Army may gatekeep the plebs from officer grade, but Management isn't even keeping them around long. Back to real work, scum!

Oh, and for careers with +SOC in the 7 roll, there IS another way to access it other than high rank. Some events grant bonuses to a Benefit roll.

That can happen in Agent, Army, Navy and Noble. Doesn't matter for Scholar as their +SOC is mid-table, but it can increase the already high chance of +SOC for Entertainer.

It does appear for how you LOSE SOC and other text that it definitely includes positive fame and acclaim.

To me, one thing that is clearly missing (and the omission is really a CT legacy) is a discussion of SOC changing after prior career generation. It's certainly not unheard of for PCs to gain fame or notoriety. Small scale wins and losses wouldn't be important, but especially for characters who leave prior career with profile, any big things that happen to them next would get noted if widely known about.

The text box on CRB p11 pretty much pegs SOC to fame, at least in part. The definition on CRB p9 simply says "A Traveller's place in society."

During prior career generation, you can lose SOC from disgrace or dishonour (though those events tend to be in the careers where SOC can also be gained. Even being sent to prison does not automatically lose SOC, though some events that reduce your SOC do send you to prison as well). Back in OG Classic Traveller, the Other career actually could reduce your SOC just by doing personal development...

So... a Referee would be well within their rights to impose a reduction or an increase in SOC if campaign events led to that.

 

[Vormaerin]

Grr, I am annoyed that I overlooked the Navy getting +1 SOC on PD. But we already knew the Navy was the best track to nobility if you can climb the ladder

T5 has Fame as an entirely different thing from SOC. But then it also has +SOC being a thing most careers can get from Personal development. And a Knighthood is a mustering out benefit possible from various careers. So the T5 Imperium is significantly more socially mobile, at least potentially, than the Mongoose version.

 

[rinku]

Nobility WAS the best track. Entertainer leaves it in the dust...

Join the Navy if you're already high Soc; bootstrap yourself as an Entertainer if you're not.

Hmm... there's plenty of singers and actors who started out in dire poverty and elevated themselves to wealth, power and honours. One of them is the Governator... what would we use for political careers in MGT? Noble I guess... Administrator and Diplomat both have Minister as rank titles.

Arnie could be seen to have leveraged his rise in Entertainment into a second Administrator career.

 

[Vormaerin]

Nobility actually has no advancement in SOC until you muster out. It's kind of amusing.

Entertainer does have the overall best odds given it has 3 of 7 options in Mustering Out, you can try for it in PD (with JoAT, Int, Dex being good alternatives if you don't get it).

 

[rinku]

Yeah. Though I can actually see WHY they changed from the CT Noble career giving SOC for rank... far too many Dukes.

As it is, it's a high bar to entry.... unless you're already in the club (SOC 10, and automatic means it does not matter how many previous careers you have). Building up a couple of points of SOC from middle class roots - including previous career mustering out - looks to be the way to move into politics.

It sort of passes the pub test too. To get into office you need profile (SOC) and a good career track record never hurts (SOC from prior career mustering out). And success in Administration (which appears to be the most pure Government career) is solidly based on INT and EDU, with SOC as a reward for public service.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The latest update for the campaign is that WL plan to convert every Mongoose Traveller book to 5e over time...

 

[swordtart]

I am not sure Charisma in D&D is any better defined than SOC, it is a loaded word used to describe specific game effects. It is not how necessarily "Hot" you are - though that is how some players see it. It is not just your social rank - though in earlier editions you needed a very high level to be a noble paladin. It is not purely your ability to get people to do what you want - though that is the primary game effect. It is basically a blend of social skill, but Social Skill is not a snappy one word tag for it.

As for SOC, if it walks like a duck... Since the RAW effect of SOC in the game is to affect all social interactions and the noble ranks associated with SOC are already soft pedalled on CRB p11, I am choosing to treat SOC as your social acumen and confidence. People just prefer being around you because your manners are better and tend to do what you ask because you act in such a way that failing to do so feels like a "faux pas". High SOC characters are also likely to be gracious.

The progress in noble rank will be a side product of that for some characters (as a product of the ability to move in the right social circles and be accepted by the ones at the top. Which comes first? If you grow up in an environment where that is the default it will come naturally. Equally if you move into an environment where that becomes important (e.g. the Navy where diplomacy among nations can be part of the job description) you can be taught it.

How does a barbarian with SOC 9 influence other people from elsewhere? They are used to people just doing what they request and have the confidence that goes with that. Humans are often very keen to follow. Take the British royalty. None could argue every British King or Prince has been the most diplomatic, pleasant or even sane individual. Their real power is driven by wealth, but their constitutional power is derived from tradition (or habit). They are figureheads, and yet a King can go to a former colony, that rebelled hundreds of years ago and that is fiercely proud of its independence and yet be afforded the highest level of courtesy and unprecedented access to their highest members of government and casually remind those leaders of their role on the world stage and get a standing ovation rather than the stink eye.

A royal visit to a factory in the back end of nowhere will generate considerable inconvenience and disruption. There will be mutterings about "waste of time and bloody fuss". Yet when the visit happens there is also publicity, the glamour and years later recollections of "the day I shook hands with the Prince of Wales". This can be compared to example of the Duke and the Belters, while he may have no direct influence, a visit by a high profile individual has side benefits. Which is the purpose of such visits, it isn't directly helping the Duke, but by his visit, maybe the Megacorps are being sent a message and that message is what generates the positive SOC modifier in the Dukes interaction with likely staunchly independent belters.

My daughter is running through a Navy career. Her primary rolled stat was INT but she had an above average SOC. A lucky graduation roll boosted her SOC so I had to immediately start thinking what this meant in terms of the setting (outside the TI). Social Rank is fortunately part and parcel of UK military life - lots of knights are ex-military as should be expected by the title.

We are playing by running through each term and resolving the musting out rolls between each adventure. She took personal development as a few times to try to boost her low END but ended up with SOC instead. We decided she had joined the ships zuzzball team for exercise but ended up as the social events coordinator and spent more time organising events than playing. Along the way she made Knight, we decided that was due to her most recent mission where she saved a highly placed imperial citizen and in the process managed to bring peace to a warring world (Faldor - World of Adventure).

Her most recent term provided two benefits (due to a promotion) and she took non-cash for both. The result of both was a boost to SOC that took her to the rank of Baroness. She hasn't suddenly been granted a fief that will require leaving the Navy to manage it. Her title is Baroness Dax, not Baroness Dax of <insert world here>. What this represents is the Imperial Hierarchy noticing that her actions on Faldor mean she is suited to governance and with the right training could be a useful member of the Aristocracy. ISS have put a marker on her file, future commanding officers will be guided to "bringing her on".

Over the next few years as she completes her next term this marker will flow out via the x-boat network such that every starport official will be inclined to treat her a little better as she has the ear of the powerful. Since world governments often use the starport officials to flag visiting persons of interest as they arrive it will filter out to lesser extent beyond the extra-territoriality. Her suggestions will carry more weight and her decisions will be more readily accepted in her local sphere. Now the effect on the psychology of an individual when this happens is generally that when people show confidence in you, you become more confident. As a result of that confidence, people who meet you for the first time will generally pick up on it sub-consciously and that in turn will inspire them to have confidence in you and that will re-enforce your personal confidence in a virtuous circle. Low confidence (low SOC) will tend to work the other way in vicious circle.

Self-confidence is not the same as competence. If you have no particularly applicable skill then people might simply agree to follow your orders to your face but reconsider when it comes to the crunch. However the "top-cover" argument or "I'll just play along and if it goes wrong I can blame them" may also be a factor. With sufficient confidence you can sometimes "fake it, until you make it". You may know nothing about a subject and high SOC will not change that, but if you "play the man and not the ball" you can still make a better go of it than someone with no skill who "plays the ball".

Social engineering is all about what people think you know and are rather than what you actually know and are. Many interactions in life are with people rather than processes and a self-confident individual will fare better than a person who doubts themselves all else being equal. SOC (and CHA) are ideal receptacles to represent these soft skills.

 

[WHULorigan]

Social Standing must be definition be a "Universal" Stat - meaning it cannot be specific to a local culture or situation - it is intrinsic to you. Therefore, it must play at the "overall" level of whatever setting you are playing in, because it is recognized at the level by all (and what would it matter as a stat if it only affected where you came from initially -- the campaign is probably not taking place there).

Further we already know that Soc as a PC Stat is not reflective of the simple population as a whole. It is generated like every other stat: 2D6 (which is a notional bell-curve reflecting an average around 7, with extreme outliers on both ends: 2 & 12). This is perfectly normal for things like STR, DEX, END, etc. But SOC levels in a society do not operate this way - there is a "Social Pyramid". People do not "average" SOC = 7, rare outliers at 2 & 12. The vast numbers of people will be in the 2-4 range, with less in the 5-8, and still fewer in 9-10, and increasingly vanishingly few as one progresses 11-15. There is no "Social Diamond" in a society; it is an artifact of CharGen, not a reflection of the Social norm.

Therefore, SOC as a STAT is a measure of the typical SOC found among Travellers, not society at large. The vast bulk of people are of low SOC; but they do not Travel off-world by and large - they're locals. OTOH, there are vanishingly few High-SOC folk, but most of them engage in interstellar travel at one point or another. o you are seeing a distorted picture of Societal SOC when you look at CharGen and Travellers. The CharGen process is generating the SOC values of the "Traveller Class", so to speak.

And as such, it is an Imperial STAT in the OTU. Not Local. Your local Barbarian Prince is NOT Soc 9-12. You have to rescale his relative importance on the Imperial Scale. And that may mean a need for specific situations having a house ruling to adjust initial SOC.

Another issue might be that any character should have one or several extra cash mustering out rolls based on their INITIAL rolled SOC, at the end of CharGen, at the referee's discretion.