Training without Teaching

[dbhoward]

Here's a situation that came up in my campaign, and a house rule I set up for it.

A character can learn a new advanced skill by using 2 IRs. A character can train another in a skill as long as he has the skill at 20% higher than the one he's training, and if he has Teaching skill he adds a bonus to the skill (if training) or it is learned quicker (if it's a new advanced skill).

But what if the tutor doesn't have Teaching skill? Are you telling me that someone with, say, 60% skill but no skill in Teaching, who is simply trying to help his friend learn the ropes, doesn't provide any more benefit than the friend picking up the tools and hacking away on his own? (That's the situation that came up with our group.)

So, what to do? I decided that a tutor or mentor can, if desired, transfer 1 (and only 1) of his own IRs to a student learning a new Advanced skill, so it only costs the student 1 IR to gain the new skill. That way there is some benefit of having a trainer even if they don't have Teaching skill.

(This of course applies only to player characters training other PCs. NPC teachers will always have to have Teaching skill, since the GM won't be tracking their IRs.)

 

[Halbard]

Must a teacher all the time have a superior skill rating to be able to teach the student something new?
I think there is plenty of examples especially in sports, that its not at least the whole true. Is Usain Bolts trainer really a better sprinter than he is? Is the soccer trainers of Barcelona better than Messi (maybe than Zlatan but ..)?
But this is a game soe the reallity have to boildown to something manageble and quite often simple.

In my mind a teacher has to have the eye for details in how the student could advance, the Teach skill is close enough.

Time to wip out the old "house rules" booklet.
In MRQI the training rules left a lot to be asked, so ...
In a traing session, first see if the trainer is actually able to find a new angle: Teach skill (no teach skill use base), with mods +Teachers skill lvl+ 20% double traing time - student skill lvl -10% no teachskill -40% half time.
The outcome of this teaching roll would then modify the improvemnet roll with: Failed Teach roll +Trainers Teach skill Critical range + norrmal bonuses
Sucessfull Teach roll + TC + Trainers Skill Critical range + normal bonuese
Critcal Teach roll + 2*(TC+SC+nromal bonues)
Or some level better to your taste.

this way a real teacher is way better but if you are better than the student you can still manage to help. And a superior student can still bennefit from a good teacher.

Hmm, another longish post.

 

[dbhoward]

Must a teacher all the time have a superior skill rating to be able to teach the student something new?
I think there is plenty of examples especially in sports, that its not at least the whole true. Is Usain Bolts trainer really a better sprinter than he is? Is the soccer trainers of Barcelona better than Messi (maybe than Zlatan but ..)?
But this is a game soe the reallity have to boildown to something manageble and quite often simple.

In cases such as your examples it is Athletics, with (I don't know) Lore (Soccer)? as an assisting skill (Crit Bonus add)... In which case the Teacher has lower Athletics (not as good an athlete) but yes, the Lore skill is actually higher, they know more about the sport. Silly examples perhaps but I would suppose it works that way. I've no idea how training someone in multiple skills at once works, and I'm not sure it matters to me.

As far as your suggested rules go, I don't think I even understand them! All I wanted was a way for non-Teacher players to be useful, not a whole new system...

 

[Mikko Leho]

But what if the tutor doesn't have Teaching skill? Are you telling me that someone with, say, 60% skill but no skill in Teaching, who is simply trying to help his friend learn the ropes, doesn't provide any more benefit than the friend picking up the tools and hacking away on his own? (That's the situation that came up with our group.)

Training does not rely on IRs, instead you get a "free" improvement roll after a week of training. Additionally some advanced skills like Craft cannot be learned by doing so you need a teacher whether he or she has Teaching or not.

 

[Denalor]

A character can learn a new advanced skill by using 2 IRs. A character can train another in a skill as long as he has the skill at 20% higher than the one he's training, and if he has Teaching skill he adds a bonus to the skill (if training) or it is learned quicker (if it's a new advanced skill).

I think something’s got mixed up there…

a) Skill Increase
A teacher can train another if his skill is 20% higher than the trainee’s.
You do not need to have Teaching to be able to do that. The trainee then rolls simple D100 (i.e. without his INT-bonus !) and if he succeeds, he gains (INT/5 round up) percentiles.
The trainee does not need to spend IRs !
So, you (as a trainee) can choose between spending your IR and learn for yourself, add your INT to your D100 roll, and on success gain 1D4+1 percentiles OR you go for the trainer and gain a fixed average (referring to the average INT of 13) 3 percentiles.
If the teacher also has teaching, the increase is higher (increase by the teacher’s critical range of Teaching skill), but there’s still not the INT modification for your actual roll.

b) Learn new advanced skill
For some advanced skill you must have a teacher, there’s no way you can learn e.g. Spirit Walking without a teacher (see page 51 for the complete list).
The teacher must have at least skill 50% to be able to teach you the new advanced skill.
This takes a month, if the teacher has Teaching it takes less time.
The trainee needs to spend 2 IRs and money !

So if you have PCs training each other I think the biggest benefit is that they can forget about the money, i.e. the training costs. And you also do not need IRs
Question is though, since it takes a whole week for skill increase, what else can the trainer benefit from ? What can he do while he’s training someone else ?

Anyway, I think the critical thing here is the adding of your INT to your D100 roll. Searching for a trainer when you still have low skill yourself is good (since you may more easily roll above your skill), but once you have professional level you would be better off not to train, I think. Rolling higher than you current skill is too important.

 

[dbhoward]

A character can learn a new advanced skill by using 2 IRs. A character can train another in a skill as long as he has the skill at 20% higher than the one he's training, and if he has Teaching skill he adds a bonus to the skill (if training) or it is learned quicker (if it's a new advanced skill).

I think something’s got mixed up there…

No, I am not mixed up, I was just not clear. I was trying to summarize the training and teaching rules in a few sentences and they ran together. Sorry if I left the impression in anyone's mind that those rules went together! Perhaps I should have listed them as: a), this is how learning on your own works; b), this is how training works; c), this is how Teaching skill works.

My original point stands, though: there seems no benefit whatever to having someone with higher skill helping you *learn* a new skill unless they do have Teaching skill. This seems utterly counterintuitive, and assumes NPC will be doing all skill training and teaching. I wanted to create an incentive for players to help each other improve.

 

[Mikko Leho]

My original point stands, though: there seems no benefit whatever to having someone with higher skill helping you *learn* a new skill unless they do have Teaching skill. This seems utterly counterintuitive, and assumes NPC will be doing all skill training and teaching. I wanted to create an incentive for players to help each other improve.

Let me give you an example: let's say there are two weeks of downtime between adventures and a player has saved two IRs for a specific skill. Now if the player's character has a friend who has a higher skill percentage and has agreed to train that character for two weeks the following happens. 1 week of training, 1 IR, second week of training and the final IR (you cannot train a skill consecutive without spending IR in between). Now if the character didn't have a friend to train him or her, then the two IRs would be the only skill increases gained. With a help of a more skilled friend the character starts the next adventure more skilled.

 

[Denalor]

My original point stands, though: there seems no benefit whatever to having someone with higher skill helping you *learn* a new skill unless they do have Teaching skill.

Like I already said: you're saving money... if the teaching PC is willing

1 week of training, 1 IR, second week of training and the final IR (you cannot train a skill consecutive without spending IR in between)

dbhoward has raised this topic because of learning new advanced skills.
:lol: He clarified that in his post (btw dbhoward, sorry, I didn't want to sound "teacher"-like, I only detailed so we are talking about the same thing)
Mikko Leho, your example deals with increasing a skill.
Also, training for a week to increase a skill does not cost IR. That's the whole point really, being able to increase skills during downtime even if you have no IRs available.

 

[Mikko Leho]

Also, training for a week to increase a skill does not cost IR. That's the whole point really, being able to increase skills during downtime even if you have no IRs available.

Yes, that was my point as I did mention how training combined with IRs lead to more experienced character.