Trade Goods - Common Consumables

[MasterGwydion]

So, Trade Goods are good use to make money through trade, yes? Buy the Trade Good, jump one or two systems and sell said trade good for a profit, yes? So, if a Good is listed on the Trade Goods Table, it should be able to be used to make money, yes?

How does anyone make any money buying and selling Common Consumables?

Even if I buy it on an Agricultural world +3DM, and have an insane Broker skill of 6, that gives Me a total DM of +9, then -2 for the local broker, for a total of +7. Using an average roll of 10 on 3d6 gets a grand total of 17 or a purchase price of 55% or 275Cr/dton of Common Consumables.

Then travel 1 J-1 to the nearest world, which happens to be an Asteroid Trade Code, +1 to the Sale DM. Again with a Broker skill of 6 and the local broker, gives us a total modifier of +5. Again with the average roll of 10 gets us a 15 on the chart, or 120% of the base price, or 600Cr/dton.

So, the profit would be 325Cr/dton, until we add in the 1,000Cr/dton transport cost. Now even with an insane skilled Broker, we still lose 675Cr/dton.

Which brings Me to My actual question. How are Common Consumables considered a Trade Good if no one can make any money off of them? What is the point of using up book space for a "Trade Good" that no trader would ever actually buy?

Am I doing the math wrong?

 

[Arkathan]

Speculative trade does not incur a 1000cr/dTon transport cost. The free trader selects from what is available to fill their hold. Travellers with a small hold are most likely taking on cargo to subsidize travel they are already doing.
A planet that WANTS goods from another system is paying for shipping when they order it, plus brokerage/handling fees. The producer gets paid at least wholesale, the broker and loaders get paid, and the transporting ship for the freight gets their fee.

 

[Condottiere]

Luxury goods at a premium.

 

[Geir]

To be fair, though the trader doesn't pay the Cr1000, if freight is available at Cr1000 per ton, there is an opportunity cost, and it would be safer to transport freight if it was available. However, if the hold was going to go empty or just partially filled, it might still be worth the differential.

 

[MasterGwydion]

To be fair, though the trader doesn't pay the Cr1000, if freight is available at Cr1000 per ton, there is an opportunity cost, and it would be safer to transport freight if it was available. However, if the hold was going to go empty or just partially filled, it might still be worth the differential.

I was thinking from the viewpoint of a broker without a ship, so would therefore have to pay shipping. There are other costs if you actually own the ship you are using.

 

[Galadrion]

I was thinking from the viewpoint of a broker without a ship, so would therefore have to pay shipping. There are other costs if you actually own the ship you are using.

Which is why such traders have stricter standards on items they will trade - you need to make a larger profit in order to pay your additional expenses (including not only freighting costs, but also passage if you're going along). You can still make considerable money, but your margins are tighter... although you don't have to pay: maintenance, crew salaries, fuel, mortgage... It's tradeoffs all the way down.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Which is why such traders have stricter standards on items they will trade - you need to make a larger profit in order to pay your additional expenses (including not only freighting costs, but also passage if you're going along). You can still make considerable money, but your margins are tighter... although you don't have to pay: maintenance, crew salaries, fuel, mortgage... It's tradeoffs all the way down.

I totally agree on the tradeoffs, but how can someone make money on Common Consumables? This means that Common Consumables will never be transported via starship. In either scenario, it is a loss of money. I think we need to raise the price of Common Comsumables. Maybe increase the price of everything under 10,000Cr by 2,000

Common Raw Materials go from 5,000 to 7,000
Common Consumables go from 500 to 2,500 (7 meals per m3 to almost 38 meals per m3. Closer to realistic as well)
Common Ores go from 1,000 to 3,000
Polymers go from 7,000 to 9,000
Spices go from 6,000 to 8,000
Textiles from 3,000 to 5,000
Uncommon Ore from 5,000 to 7,000
Wood from 1,000 to 3,000

Change 8 goods and now the whole chart can be profitable if you roll well enough. Before they couldn't.

 

[ColinD]

IMTU I use the Subsidized Trader as the basis for why Common Consumables are transported, even though they won't turn a high profit. In my campaign, using the Trade Codes from the Solomani Front book, the Travellers start on the Hi Population planet Banasdan , whose surface is "barely habitable".

The bureaucrats of Banasdan then subsidize Merchants, to hauling Common Consumables from the Agricultural world of Lakamsal or the Water world of Noricum . So the Travellers get a fee just to fly to these two worlds with food so as to feed the many mouths on Banasdan and the nearby Asteroid Belt of Arcturus.

 

[Condottiere]

In 1969, the UPU introduced a system of terminal dues. When two countries had imbalanced mail flows, the country that sent more mail would have to pay a fee to the country that received more mail. The amount was based on the difference in the weight of mail sent and received.[20] Since the Executive Council had been unable to come up with a cost-based compensation scheme after five years of study, terminal dues were set arbitrarily at half a gold franc (0.163 SDR) per kilogram.[21] Also since 1969, it announces the annual best postal services on 9 October, the World Post Day.[22]
...
The system of terminal dues also created new winners and losers. Since the terminal dues were fixed, low-cost countries that were net recipients would turn a profit on delivering international mail. Developing countries were low-cost recipients, but so were developed countries like the United States and the United Kingdom.[20] Since the dues were payable based on weight, periodicals would be assessed much higher terminal dues than letters.[19]

 

[MasterGwydion]

IMTU I use the Subsidized Trader as the basis for why Common Consumables are transported, even though they won't turn a high profit. In my campaign, using the Trade Codes from the Solomani Front book, the Travellers start on the Hi Population planet Banasdan , whose surface is "barely habitable".

The bureaucrats of Banasdan then subsidize Merchants, to hauling Common Consumables from the Agricultural world of Lakamsal or the Water world of Noricum . So the Travellers get a fee just to fly to these two worlds with food so as to feed the many mouths on Banasdan and the nearby Asteroid Belt of Arcturus.

Then... the only way this works is if it is subsidized?

 

[MongooseMatt]

I was thinking from the viewpoint of a broker without a ship, so would therefore have to pay shipping. There are other costs if you actually own the ship you are using.

The Trade chapter is not a broker simulator. It is a bunch-of-herberts-in-a-barely-flying-ship simulator.

People who are not Travellers play by different rules.

 

[coolAlias]

The Trade chapter is not a broker simulator. It is a bunch-of-herberts-in-a-barely-flying-ship simulator.

People who are not Travellers play by different rules.

Now we see the violence inherent in the system!

 

[MasterGwydion]

The Trade chapter is not a broker simulator. It is a bunch-of-herberts-in-a-barely-flying-ship simulator.

Which doesn't reflect the campaign well if you are running a merchant campaign. They are not a bunch of herberts. Ship's Broker with Broker/4 is a highly trained professional. Ground-based Broker working for a noble house as well doesn't fit that paradigm.

People who are not Travellers play by different rules.

And yet Traveller goes out of its way as an RPG to make the Travellers no different mechanically than any of the NPCs in the universe. As a Traveller, I can always hire these superpowered non-travellers you are talking about, but without rules, it won't do much good.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The Trade chapter is not a broker simulator. It is a bunch-of-herberts-in-a-barely-flying-ship simulator.

People who are not Travellers play by different rules.

This.

Since LBB:2 many of us have been pointing out that the trade rules are for a group of Travellers in a free trader or scout, they are not a model of the economic system of an 11,000 world 57th century empire founded on trade. Nor are they meant to make you wealthy without a lot of luck or savvy playing of the trade codes.

Something else that needs to be mentioned regularly, the difference between an active duty campaign and the mustered out game. Traveller's core concept is that the characters are no longer members of the services they had their careers in (scouts get a handwave). You may have served twenty four terms in the merchants but as soon as you muster out you are going it alone as a Traveller.

Active duty campaigns require a structure for the service to be detailed, the hierarchy, the protocols etc.

A Traveller merchant goes where they want
An active duty merchant goes where they are told.

The later LBB Merchants made 2 big mistakes IMHO - it gave player characters access to the broker skill and it made free traders a career without pointing out that as an employee of a free trader you are in effect an NPC until you are ready to go it alone.

 

[ColinD]

Then... the only way this works is if it is subsidized?

That is just my idea for my campaign. Using the Trade Codes I saw that hungry Banasdan has 50 billion people (Hi Population, Hi Tech and Poor) and nearby Arcturus (Asteroid, Hi Tech, Low Population, Vacuum) no way to grow food while Lakamsal is a great planet for farming (Agricultural and Garden) and well off Noricum has Oceans (High Tech, Rich and Water World). That gave me a narrative hook for trade that my players utilized. The Travellers see how the Fish and Aquafarming from Noricum and land based farms from Lakamsal make it to Banasdan and Arcturus and that doing so wins the support of the Banasdan government.

I enjoy seeing how other Referees and players make their own economies in their games. Traveller's world building is one of my favorite aspects of the game.

 

[MasterGwydion]

This.

Since LBB:2 many of us have been pointing out that the trade rules are for a group of Travellers in a free trader or scout, they are not a model of the economic system of an 11,000 world 57th century empire founded on trade. Nor are they meant to make you wealthy without a lot of luck or savvy playing of the trade codes.

Something else that needs to be mentioned regularly, the difference between an active duty campaign and the mustered out game. Traveller's core concept is that the characters are no longer members of the services they had their careers in (scouts get a handwave). You may have served twenty four terms in the merchants but as soon as you muster out you are going it alone as a Traveller.

Active duty campaigns require a structure for the service to be detailed, the hierarchy, the protocols etc.

So, what are the structures, hierarchies, and protocols that change when you muster out of being a drifter? Or a mustered-out marine who gets together with his buddies and forms a PMC to make money and kick ass? Scout is different since you are likely Detached Duty, but Travelling is basically being a drifter. At one point, way back in the day, I remember a Career called Traveller as well. What were you when you mustered out of being a Traveller and yet kept on travelling?

A Traveller merchant goes where they want

An Owner-Operator goes where he wants.

An active duty merchant goes where they are told.

A shlub that works for the ship owner goes where he's told.

The later LBB Merchants made 2 big mistakes IMHO - it gave player characters access to the broker skill and it made free traders a career without pointing out that as an employee of a free trader you are in effect an NPC until you are ready to go it alone.

It is a Role Playing Game and one of the biggest tropes in the Traveller game is group of merchants/smugglers/pirates/mercenaries/adventurers/Travellers. Building rules to help people play how they want to play is never a bad thing. Did no one ever point out to you that sometimes the PCs are the Owners of the ship and not the employees? If I have a mortgage, then I am an owner, not an employee, and mortgages and struggling to pay mortgages is pretty much old-school Traveller play.

 

[Sigtrygg]

So, what are the structures, hierarchies, and protocols that change when you muster out of being a drifter?

No idea. You would have to ask the writer what they were thinking when they detailed that particular prior career.
I would explain is thusly, prior to mustering out nothing out of the ordinary is happening to you, once you have mustered out you are now a "traveller" and on the adventurers path/hero's journey.

Or a mustered-out marine who gets together with his buddies and forms a PMC to make money and kick ass?

A mercenary company you own is very different to a mercenary unit you are part of. An once again we have the pre-mustering out of you not being in control of your own destiny, to the mustered out "traveller" and on the adventurers path/hero's journey.

Scout is different since you are likely Detached Duty, but Travelling is basically being a drifter.

No, if you are Travelling your character has free will, if you are in a career you are at the mercy of the dice...
a Traveller has a purpose that a drifter doesn;t, they may not know what that purpose is, but the first hint is that the character is the avatar of a player rather than being controlled by dice.

At one point, way back in the day, I remember a Career called Traveller as well. What were you when you mustered out of being a Traveller and yet kept on travelling?

That was in T20, it may have made it to MgT can't remember. I objected to it at the time but how else do you handle it in a level based game that requires you to have a class? It also shows the authors haven't really understood the nature of a "traveller".

I wrote this to sum up my thoughts on CT.

A Traveller is a person who has had an epiphany, that what they have been doing with their lives so far is over and they have to head out on their own.

Their old career is gone, and the society they were part of no longer wants them in that role. Rather than lie down and wait for the end they break with society norms and begin to Travel. They adventure, seeking to gain rewards, rewards that actually matter: a sense of worth, money, reputation; not social status since they are now living outside their societal norms...

Remember what it says in the Final Word to referees:

“The players themselves have a burden almost equal to that of the referee: they must move, act, and travel in search of their own goals. The typical methods used in life by 20th century Terrans (thrift, dedication, and hard work) do not work in Traveller; instead, travellers must boldly plan and execute daring schemes for the acquisition of wealth and power.

Adventurous conduct, by its very nature, is not civilized. It is frequently not law-abiding either. Any world which is civilized enough to deserve the term also has a vested interest in suppressing adventurers, for the good of society. It is only on the fringe worlds, where there are neither enough people nor enough civilization, that "taking matters into your own hands" is routinely a viable strategy for dealing with problems."

An Owner-Operator goes where he wants.

How do you become an owner-operator? You go through prior career and then muster out...

A shlub that works for the ship owner goes where he's told.

It is a Role Playing Game and one of the biggest tropes in the Traveller game is a group of merchants/smugglers/pirates/mercenaries/adventurers/Travellers.

One of the most misunderstood tropes. It is not how I have ever though Traveller ought to be run, just an example of how ir could be. A group of travellers - PCs - have prior histories that have one thing in common. To enter the game they have mustered out. They are no longer part of their prior career service. They have adventures, they don't just play the trade tables... that would be very boring.

My longest continuous on again/off again Traveller campaigns is a planet of the week. I say this tongue in cheek since some sessions would see the players jump between a few systems, while there have been scenarios that went on for months in the same system. The players have never wanted to own their own ship, they can't be bothered with the paperwork.

Building rules to help people play how they want to play is never a bad thing.

I agree.

Did no one ever point out to you that sometimes the PCs are the Owners of the ship and not the employees?

How did they become the owners?

If I have a mortgage, then I am an owner, not an employee, and mortgages and struggling to pay mortgages is pretty much old-school Traveller play.

Emm, no. If you have a mortgage then the bank is the owner, miss a payment see what happens...
you could always skip, and go beyond the borders, where adventure awaits.

 

[Condottiere]

You'd think if you're going trading, you'd form a limited liability company, rather than a sole proprietorship or partnership.

Or:

 

[MongooseMatt]

Which doesn't reflect the campaign well if you are running a merchant campaign. They are not a bunch of herberts. Ship's Broker with Broker/4 is a highly trained professional. Ground-based Broker working for a noble house as well doesn't fit that paradigm.

And yet Traveller goes out of its way as an RPG to make the Travellers no different mechanically than any of the NPCs in the universe. As a Traveller, I can always hire these superpowered non-travellers you are talking about, but without rules, it won't do much good.

We haven't done the merchant rules yet.

Travellers are absolutely mechanically different, as evidenced by the trade rules and (secret revealed) Traveller creation. They are, by definition, different from the vast majority of people in the universe. It is why they are Travellers.

Also, Traveller (as an RPG) is not a universe simulator. Yet. We are working on that. One day, as well as having detailed sector maps for all of Charted Space, we will have rules for absolutely every aspect of interstellar life. It is a dream...

 

[MasterGwydion]

We haven't done the merchant rules yet.

I would have looked forward to the merchant rules, but given your views below, I am not sure that is still the case.

Travellers are absolutely mechanically different, as evidenced by the trade rules and (secret revealed) Traveller creation. They are, by definition, different from the vast majority of people in the universe. It is why they are Travellers.

Then perhaps I need to find a new game. The appeal of Traveller has always been that Travellers are mechanically the same as everyone else. It is a game of skills, not powers. (Even Psionics are just treated as normal skills.) They are not gods with thousands of hit points and using completely different classes for PC and NPCs. If you, as a representative of Mongoose, are going to say that is not the case, then, I need to stop buying Mongoose products immediately as it is not the game I thought it was and will not be supported in a way that I can enjoy. I hate the hypocrisy in RPGs that PC and NPCs use different rules, like D&D. In Traveller you write up NPCs the same way you write up PCs. There is no mechanical difference. What makes Travellers different from other people are their actions. There should be no mechanical difference between a Drifter and a mustered-out Drifter. Although, you seem to be saying that as soon as you muster out of a career, you magically can no longer buy things at the regular people price, you get the Traveller price which is economically non-viable. Game rules should be like physics and apply the same to everyone. It is how I run My games, but if this will not be supported by Mongoose products then, I will have to find a game that does or just go back to not gaming, again.

Also, Traveller (as an RPG) is not a universe simulator. Yet. We are working on that. One day, as well as having detailed sector maps for all of Charted Space, we will have rules for absolutely every aspect of interstellar life. It is a dream...

Every RPG is a simulator in varying levels of detail and accuracy. It simulates a person assuming the role of a person in another universe. It is by definition a universe simulator. I think what you mean to say is that it is not a "detailed universe simulator". Worldbuilding is called worldbuilding for a reason. You are literally building the world. So, of course, it is a simulation, it is just not a simulation of Our universe with Our universe's rules. Every computer RPG you play also simulates the world you are adventuring in. All RPGs are in one form or another a "universe simulator". The Referee's entire job description is literally to simulate the universe for the players by using the rules of the system and setting.