Too Much Magic?

[RayRangel]

Is there such a thing as too much magic in an RPG?

I get frustrated with D&D sometimes. I like to figure out puzzles, plot strategies, cope with difficult tactical situations, and, of course, kill the dragon and steal his stuff. It bothers me when the best laid plans are nullified by another player's magic using character. Manys the time when the party has sat in the local taven plotting and planning a mundane trap for the bad guy NPCs. Then the magic user(s) speak up and state that they will cast such-and-such followed by such-and such and augmented with this, that, or the other modifier and thus there is no need for our complicated mundane tactics. The rest of the party might as well stay home.

One of the reasons (aside from the nostagic pang I felt when I saw the cover...) I bought the Conan game is because my scan of the magic section while stading in the store seemed to indicate that magic had been de-powered and relegated to an appropriate supporting role. This, I feel, is the way that REH used magic in Conan's world. Magic was everywhere, yet, with a few exceptions, is was a backdrop. Sure, there were the nasty villians who were sorcerers. Magic users in Conan the RPG should, more than not be restricted to a few NPCs who have to be delt with as the climax of the adventure.

Some of the messages I read on this forum and the publishing of the Scrolls of Skelos causes some consternation. They seem to be advocating more magic. Is Conan going the way of D&D and most other RPGs? Will it become just another generic magic laden fantasy RPG that populates the cut-out shelves at the local game store? Does the apparent demand for more magic out weigh the demand for a game true to REH?

 

[Anonymous]

First of all magic in REH's world may have been rare but it wasn't anything to laugh at. Between the magical diseases Stygians could inflict upon entire (!) armies and what bad guys like Xaltotun wielded, I don't recall any instance of Conan judging the magic of his adversaries pathetic or weak.

IMHO, Mongoose did a good job preserving that feeling in this game. Oh sure, low level Scholars are unlikely to be able to cast earth-shattering spells around but - given time and the appropriate demonic fonts of knowledge - they'll turn into the worst nightmare of any adventurer.

There is really no way to compare traditional D&D magic with the magic wielded in Conan. D&D spellcasters don't have to sacrifice victims to invoke creatures or eldritch power. They don't grow weak when casting their spells. They don't need weird plants to grow strong again. Magic in Conan is well-balanced.

Those of us requesting more magic are only begging for a d20 translation of the spells, magic items and unnatural horrors described in the other REH novels. Don't worry, none of us want to see Fireball-happy sorcerers running around.

Besides, if you run a Conan campaign and hate magic that much, just restrain its use to NPCs. Problem solved!

 

[BhilJhoanz]

One of the reasons ... I bought the Conan game is because my scan of the magic section while stading in the store seemed to indicate that magic had been de-powered and relegated to an appropriate supporting role. This, I feel, is the way that REH used magic in Conan's world. Magic was everywhere, yet, with a few exceptions, is was a backdrop. Sure, there were the nasty villians who were sorcerers. Magic users in Conan the RPG should, more than not be restricted to a few NPCs who have to be delt with as the climax of the adventure.

Well put! Personally, I'd hesitate to let more than a single PC play a scholar in a campaign and even then it should be rare . . . Scholars should be reserved for the forces that oppose the players.

However, having access to more information about the subject does not require that it become as invasive as in D&D. Scrolls of Skelos is a great way for a DM to flesh out his creations and give players more options. More classes, rules, feats, etc etc do not force a game to be any one way or another -- it's up to the DM to control the tone of a game.

 

[Odovacar's Ghost]

Well, I can agree that scholars could be rare. Having wandering demons about that have pacts with these scholars could be quite an adventure in trying to keep the party in one piece.

Though, if we keep it close to REH as possible, then yes Scholars would indeed be rare. But, once again it is a matter that has to be taken up with your particular DM.

I personally have a scholar in the works. More of a scholar/soldier/monk type of breed.

 

[RayRangel]

I agree that magic is not weak or ineffective in the REH world. It is, IMHO, relatively rare. Certainly it is wielded by the main antagonists in stories, but not by every character you meet in a tavern as in D&D. In fact, there is so much magic being flung around in D&D it starts to feel more like Muggwarts rather than JRRT. Parties that don't have a Cleric and Wizard and a Druid have some serious issues in the published adventures I've read.

Conan's world, again in IMHO, contains a lot of powerful evil magic. And the magic that is not evil is neutral and there for color and mood. Since I've started re-reading the original stories in the last few weeks, it has become clear that 99% of Conan's opponents are just as mundane as he is.

My concern is that people will come to play Conan for a change from D&D and its high magic clones. In time, they will start demanding more and more magic options to buff up their characters. In while, this may lead to Conan evolving into just another D&D campaign.

Skelos certainly will provide a lot of magical info for the GM. It also provides a lot of magic for the PCs as well. Since I haven't seen the book yet, I reserve my opinion until I do. What I have stated are my concerns.

All that being said...I was hoping to elicit readers own opinions about what they think the role of magic in Conan the RPG (CRPG) should be rather than opinions about my opinions...

 

[rook111]

First of all I would argue that its rare. True, Conan does not seem to run into sorcereres in each story (and I'm talking about the true REH stories), but there is a preseance of magic in just about every story he wrote. In fact off the top of my head I don't think I can name one REH story in which magic is not present in some form or other.

Its up to a GM not to allow magic of any type in any campaign to take on a game defining role, prehaps more so In the world of Conan.

 

[Anonymous]

My concern is that people will come to play Conan for a change from D&D and its high magic clones. In time, they will start demanding more and more magic options to buff up their characters. In while, this may lead to Conan evolving into just another D&D campaign.

Unlikely.

First of all, because I doubt creating "permanent" magic items will ever be easy in Conan, even with the Scrolls of Skelos on their way.

Second, because even if a Scholar-player in your party goes demon-happy, he'll soon reach a Corruption level that will force him to become a NPC.

Right now, Scholars PC either have to keep a low profile, magic-wise, and hope to survive OR go for the flashy stuff and pray they'll get to enjoy it for a short while before becoming a raving madman under DM's control.

That should discourage most D&D powergamers used to cast Wish spells left and right...

 

[argo]

First of all I would argue that its rare. True, Conan does not seem to run into sorcereres in each story (and I'm talking about the true REH stories), but there is a preseance of magic in just about every story he wrote. In fact off the top of my head I don't think I can name one REH story in which magic is not present in some form or other.

Ah, but are you really so sure? :wink: One of the important themes of REH's work is that the Hyborian age is a record lost in the mists of time. One of inumerable such cycles lost to the rise and fall of civilizations. He allows for the exicsance of many strange and forgotten things which are not necessarily supernatural. Who can really say how many of the wierd elements of Conan's adventurers were truly magical (because there _is_ real magic) how many were nothing more but smoke and mirrors and mundane trickery, and how many were just misunderstood but cloaked in superstition and fear and ignorance? Conan rarely walks away from an adventure knowing all the ins and outs of what happened: he doesn't care so long as he has strong wine and hot white arms to look forward too. And he sure as heck wouldn't risk his neck to find out what could only be of interest to unwholsome sorcerers.

I think that that is the real key to magic in a Swords & Sorcery game. It isn't about how much magic is present but how well it is understood. In dnd magic is basically science by another name. It always works, and it always works the same way every time. Plus the players quickly come to know all the magic themselves. There is just no mystery left. In Conan even the well defined spells in the sorcery chapter carry some unpredictable elements (to say nothing of the dangers inherent in magic use). So long as you can keep your players guessing about just what is going on and how it is all going to turn out and just what in the HELL that thing in the corner is, and never give them any straight answers even after the adventure is over, I think that will give the game the right "feel" no matter how much actual magic you have.

 

[rook111]

Whether trickery, Science, or supernatural to those witnessing it, its magic.

As for the rest Argo, I couldn't agree with you more. Good points all.

 

[S'mon]

Whether trickery, Science, or supernatural to those witnessing it, its magic.

I was just reading 'Rogues in the House' - Nabonidus the Red Priest _seems_ like a powerful sorcerer, but if you actually look at what he does it's all alchemy & science. Much of what appears as 'magic' to the non-Scholar PCs in a Conan game should have a non-magical explanation IMO. I'm a bit concerned about Defensive Blast BTW since it gives every 1st-level Scholar a ground-zero Fireball ability that will easily slay almost anyone within the area of effect.

 

[BhilJhoanz]

Re: Defensive Blast

True, but moving into a position where he can use his "Fireball" would spell certain death.

The ability will be used as it's named -- defensively, when things go wrong and the scholar is cornered.

 

[S'mon]

Re: Defensive Blast

True, but moving into a position where he can use his "Fireball" would spell certain death.

Why's that? I'm concerned because I'm allowing a Spawn of Dagoth Hill PC and he'll have 12 BPP at 1st level. Couldn't he just walk up to within 10' of Conan (say) and Blast him for 12d6 dmg, Fort save for half giving avg 21 dmg on a save (with massive damage check)? Defensive Blast is risky in a dungeon-crawl, but to kill a single powerful opponent it seems perfect.

 

[RayRangel]

Most of REH's "magic" isn't. By this I mean that concocting potions from various lotus (a favorite literary ploy of REH) isn't magic but it certainly is arcane. There are many things in the stories that come under this heading like the yellow dust that kills the lions at the base of the Elephant Tower. I would certainly restrict the concoction of these things to the Scholar class (but not their use) as they require the study of arcane science.

As far as real magic (defined as the "supernatural"), I think that it should definately be in a supporting role and not the star. Frankly, D&D gets boring and trite because of the magic.

I certainly, whole heartedly agree with the Scholar class and I have no problem with the current rules (note that I've merely read them; not having had an opportunity to play them yet). My concern is that they will be "infected" by the D&D power gamer mentality. There's also a concern about attracting players when they learn that they can't play magic missile machine guns.

My gaming group has asked me to run a Conan game when we complete our current D&D adventure. I will certainly have more insight after that; both in game terms and in terms of player acceptance of the Conan setting and REHs version of sword and sorcery.

Perhaps I'm just a little paranoid after having a "power gamer" (by definition a magic user in D&D) constantly disrupting our established group with over-the-top rules lawyering (by defintion a magic user in D&D).

 

[BhilJhoanz]

S'mon,
Yes -- at first level that's a little crazy but having a Spawn in your party creates an over powered situation anyway -- if you're familiar with the ECL system in D&D, you should probably apply it here.

You can deal with the situation by not leaving your villian alone or having lots of other opportunities for your player to spend his PP . . . good luck!

Personally, I saw Spawn as a great NPC device but would seriously balk at letting a PC use it -- it smacks of the very threat to the game that Ray is rightly expressing concern about.

 

[S'mon]

S'mon,
Yes -- at first level that's a little crazy but having a Spawn in your party creates an over powered situation anyway -- if you're familiar with the ECL system in D&D, you should probably apply it here.

You can deal with the situation by not leaving your villian alone or having lots of other opportunities for your player to spend his PP . . . good luck!

Personally, I saw Spawn as a great NPC device but would seriously balk at letting a PC use it -- it smacks of the very threat to the game that Ray is rightly expressing concern about.

Well the player paid for the Spawn Feat to get it per the rules, and the template has a Fate Point penalty so it's clearly intended for PCs. I didn't really see a problem with it, given the Fate Point and Corruption penalties, except that it makes Defensive Blast very powerful - although even a regular human scholar's DB is likely to be 8d6 at level 1, enough to incinerate any likely opponent.

 

[slaughterj]

S'mon,
Yes -- at first level that's a little crazy but having a Spawn in your party creates an over powered situation anyway -- if you're familiar with the ECL system in D&D, you should probably apply it here.

You can deal with the situation by not leaving your villian alone or having lots of other opportunities for your player to spend his PP . . . good luck!

Personally, I saw Spawn as a great NPC device but would seriously balk at letting a PC use it -- it smacks of the very threat to the game that Ray is rightly expressing concern about.

Well the player paid for the Spawn Feat to get it per the rules, and the template has a Fate Point penalty so it's clearly intended for PCs. I didn't really see a problem with it, given the Fate Point and Corruption penalties, except that it makes Defensive Blast very powerful - although even a regular human scholar's DB is likely to be 8d6 at level 1, enough to incinerate any likely opponent.

The DB damage seems powerful, but:
- that character will be drained of those 8 or 12 pp for some time if they do such a blast.
- presumably there's a fort save for half
- presumably armor DR will apply as well

That all keeps it more in check.

 

[S'mon]

Why would armour DR apply? DR doesn't affect energy attacks oin core d20 rules. Is there a source for that in the Conan book?

I think reluctance to spend all his PPs at once will be a limiting factor. Hmm.... given that the scenario will start with the PCs already defeated by a pirate attack & waking up 8 hours later I reckon I'll start him off drained, with 4 PPs.... :twisted:

 

[slaughterj]

The DB damage seems powerful, but:
- that character will be drained of those 8 or 12 pp for some time if they do such a blast.
- presumably there's a fort save for half
- presumably armor DR will apply as well

That all keeps it more in check.

Why would armour DR apply? DR doesn't affect energy attacks oin core d20 rules. Is there a source for that in the Conan book?

I think reluctance to spend all his PPs at once will be a limiting factor. Hmm.... given that the scenario will start with the PCs already defeated by a pirate attack & waking up 8 hours later I reckon I'll start him off drained, with 4 PPs.... :twisted:

Maybe armor doesn't? Does that mean I can run up to someone with a torch and burn them in the platemail armor?

As for spending all pps at once on DB, while that's the rule (IIRC), I don't think I'll require that simply because then PCs will think that a mage is powerless after a DB, and I don't think it should be so predictable for the PCs - even if they don't vocalize it, if the players know the rules on that, then the knowledge will still affect their play style, e.g.:

DM: "The evil sorceror erupts with mystical energy, blasting the closest two PCs with magical energy for 25 points of damage, halved with a Fort save."
PC Thief out of DB range: Thinking to himself, "hmm, the mage can't DB again, or cast spells like Touch of Death(?), so I have no fear of running up to him to attack."

I'd rather avoid the above thought process by PCs, and therefore will not require DBs to use all pps.

 

[Anonymous]

I was just wondering whether the Defensive Blast was based on any particular event from the Conan stories? I recognize some other magical effects as coming from specific stories, but what about this one?

 

[S'mon]

Maybe armor doesn't? Does that mean I can run up to someone with a torch and burn them in the platemail armor?

For the 1hp fire damage a torch does, yup. I'm not saying it's necessarily realistic, however armour already seems overpowered in the Conan rules without giving it energy resistance also! If I'd been playtesting I'd have recommended Armour DRs in the 1-6 range (cloth 1, plate 6) and maybe let half of it count vs energy attacks.