Today's question; Jump rating as a Speed?

[Tom Kalbfus]

Now there's the problem. Has the Jump drive for this thread become a version of warp engine ala Star Trek in which you're just travelling very fast in real space or are you stiil in jump space, totally cut off from real space but able to start, maneuver and stop as you please? Essentially flying blind.

Well one doesn't actually notice any FTL objects in this universe, so one might guess that's because they're invisible. One variation is the stutterwarp drive, you have a short warp, takes you a few hundreds of thousands if kilometers forward with each jump then you spend a short instant in real space, then take another short jump. The warp drive essentially flickers, you can see the stars move, but ship to ship combat would still be very hard due to this flicker effect, there is no inertia necessarily so it could be hard to predict where the ship is going to flicker to next, a bit of random flickering could make it harder to anticipate the future position of the ship and hit it with a missile, though a fast laser might do the trick if the ship were to pull up close enough.

 

[phavoc]

The Imperium has always enjoyed a technological advantage over the Zhodani. That's how they've been able to beat them in every war. AVERAGE TL is different than the peak. Front-line Imperial warships should be designed at the TL-15 level to keep with the stated history. While the Zho have TL-15 planets, the Imperial has some TL-16. But they are the exceptions and not the norm.

So the TL-15 Imp ships retain the edge over the TL-14.

As to why the Fighting Ships book has systems with various TL all over the place I chalk up to the Min-Max thought process a player puts into ship designs. In standard warships of reality you don't put in a system that's 40 year old technology to start. But, once a system is built, yeah, then you can conceivably have 40 year old tech in your ship (ala the 707 flying tankers that are still being used by active duty forces today). But they aren't front-line aircraft. Some things do actually get upgraded where it makes sense to, in other cases the stuff from way back still works today.

I served in the US army as an artilleryman for the MLRS system. I joined in 85 and that launchers were only a few years old (but developed earlier). They didn't change the plasma-based fire-control systems until 2000 when they did a system upgrade on the fire control and launcher systems. It didn't get GPS until later. Instead it used an onboard intertial guidance system. All you had to do was pull up next to a survey marker or stake every so often and align your system to ensure accuracy.

When they were built we didn't use 1940s tech in them. Because players don't deal with things like spare parts or trying to integrate different shit together in reality it makes sense on a spreadsheet to use TL9 equipment in a TL15 ship because you get cost and/or space savings. But hey, it's just a game so it works.

 

[Infojunky]

Ok, 1st off thanks for banging this Idea around.

A couple of things I have gathered, the small old tech Free Trader is going to be filling the same roles as the trading Dhows of the Indian Ocean fill today, I can't see a game changing problem with that.

If this helps any of y'all, a lot of the thinking about the average ship in my head is somewhere between TL11 to 13 meeting the imperium's average Tech Levels. In part it was as an extension of the Little vs. Big Ship economic model as originally defined by the Trade routes rules in CT. In which the Big ships fill the long distance trade links while smaller slower ships fill the local trade links. As such I was looking on how to adapt the classic 100 to 5000 dton ranges as the core range, this will/might make more sense when I get the campaign setting weeded out and posted.

Finally back to the topic the biggest changes i see are in Naval operations as small fast reconnaissance craft can flit around a fleets area of operations and provide more effective intelligence....

 

[dmccoy1693]

The Imperium has always enjoyed a technological advantage over the Zhodani. That's how they've been able to beat them in every war.

*blink, blink* this must be one of the things that changed from edition to edition. Because I don't remember that at all.

The Spinward Marches, page 43: in the first frontier war, the imperium gets beaten back until reinforcements arrive, at which point, a stalemate is reached. End result: imperium losses settled worlds and picks up unsettled worlds that zhos passed over. Sounds like a loss to me.

The Spinward Marches, page 44: 2nd frontier war, the grand admiral negotiated an armistice that ceded more territory to the zhos. Loss 2 for 2.

I don't have info on 3 in front of me ATM, but 4 ended before before any significant reinforcements could reach the border. No word on how the border was changed other than, there was a border change. IIRC (and I admit, I may not), more territory was lost.

To me, it sounds like the imperium has numbers while the zhos have technology. But that's just how I read it.

 

[Infojunky]

The Imperium has always enjoyed a technological advantage over the Zhodani. That's how they've been able to beat them in every war.

*blink, blink* this must be one of the things that changed from edition to edition. Because I don't remember that at all.

The difference between TL14 and TL15 is minuscule. But the Zhodani have the bulk of their empire right behind the front while the Imperium has a Lobe extending out and touching them, so it is generally a matter of supply lines and inertia. in that it takes a somewhat more advanced in some ways Imperium to get started and come up to parity with the Zhodani, so when they get there they have to dig out entrenched forces instead of fleet duels in the dark. And the Zho have Psi on their side.....

--With that last sentence why do I get the picture of the near dead husk of Strephen in a golden throne eating the psychic energy of capture "illegal" Psi's for breakfast?

 

[BillDowns]

If you are going 1 parsec in a Jump 1 ship it takes 1 week. If you are going 1 p.c. in a J2 ship it takes 1/2 week.

Sure, that's different. But I don't see it as earth-shattering. Well, it would be if this was real life, but this is a game. You blink out, you blink in somewhere else and time passes. Does it matter to most of the players if today is the 23rd of the month or the 25th? Not really. Heck, some of the gamers I've played with can't even tell what year it is.

I would have to disagree with this statement. There are 2 points to consider:
1. With this rule, stars that a J1 ship could not reach are now reachable.
2. With this rule, a J2 Far Trader will become obsolete, since a J1 Free Trader can now reach the same stars, carry the same cargo, for a purchase price 31% less than the Far Trader.

 

[sideranautae]

2. With this rule, a J2 Far Trader will become obsolete, since a J1 Free Trader can now reach the same stars, carry the same cargo, for a purchase price 31% less than the Far Trader.

I thought the same until I realized that in the OTU you couldn't pick up freight in a J1 ship that was bound for a system 2 p.c. away even if the ship could do it in 2 jumps (I'm assuming on a J1 main). For some reason that isn't an option in the ORU trade rules. Probably because it would take a J1 ship twice as long and thus break the loan payment cycle paradigm as far as econ feasibility?

I don't know which way it would go.

 

[Reynard]

The rules rightly assume and are based on regular jump mechanics. Need to rewrite the rules to reflect this insignificant change. Ripples.

 

[sideranautae]

The rules rightly assume and are based on regular jump mechanics. Need to rewrite the rules to reflect this insignificant change. Ripples.

It is based on finance not mechanics. A J1 ship using standard Jump Mechanics could always haul freight more than one p.c. Even if the gap was 2 p.c. by using collapsible fuel tankage In both models it takes about the same amount of time. 2 weeks.

 

[BillDowns]

2. With this rule, a J2 Far Trader will become obsolete, since a J1 Free Trader can now reach the same stars, carry the same cargo, for a purchase price 31% less than the Far Trader.

I thought the same until I realized that in the OTU you couldn't pick up freight in a J1 ship that was bound for a system 2 p.c. away even if the ship could do it in 2 jumps (I'm assuming on a J1 main). For some reason that isn't an option in the ORU trade rules. Probably because it would take a J1 ship twice as long and thus break the loan payment cycle paradigm as far as econ feasibility?

I don't know which way it would go.

Where is this rule?

 

[BillDowns]

The rules rightly assume and are based on regular jump mechanics. Need to rewrite the rules to reflect this insignificant change. Ripples.

It is based on finance not mechanics. A J1 ship using standard Jump Mechanics could always haul freight more than one p.c. Even if the gap was 2 p.c. by using collapsible fuel tankage In both models it takes about the same amount of time. 2 weeks.

I did not see that jumps to empty hexes was allowed in any version of Traveller. References?

 

[sideranautae]

Where is this rule?

You're right. The one jump rules is for passengers rates not freight in MGT.

 

[sideranautae]

I did not see that jumps to empty hexes was allowed in any version of Traveller. References?

Jump rules don't prohibit jumping anywhere but inside 100D limit. The rules only state where you CANNOT jump. Having a planetary body near isn't a requirement for jump or jump calcs. Not in CT, MGT & MGT at least It isn't an issue. Also see Spinward Marches supp's and jumping across voids using collapsible fuel bladders, et al.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Sure, that's different. But I don't see it as earth-shattering. Well, it would be if this was real life, but this is a game. You blink out, you blink in somewhere else and time passes. Does it matter to most of the players if today is the 23rd of the month or the 25th? Not really. Heck, some of the gamers I've played with can't even tell what year it is.

2. With this rule, a J2 Far Trader will become obsolete, since a J1 Free Trader can now reach the same stars, carry the same cargo, for a purchase price 31% less than the Far Trader.

I don't think you are getting what I was saying. I was responding to a comment about how all J1's would go out of business because J2's can jump 1 parsec in 1/2 a week. If I am reading your statement correctly, you're saying that I am saying that J1's will put all J2's out of business because they are cheaper. That is not what I am saying either.

Here's what I am saying (illustrated):
Fedex Ground and Fedex Express both exist. Fedex Express ships by air. Fedex Ground takes a truck. Fedex Express ships faster. Fedex Ground costs less. Some people need their product delivered in a day. Other people need their product shipped and are trying to control costs and ships it the method that costs less and can wait a week for it to get where it is going. Neither stands to put the other out of business because the other exists.
The same would be true if a J6 ship could deliver the same cargo to a system 1 parsec away in a day-ish and a J1 takes a week.

 

[sideranautae]

Here's what I am saying (illustrated):
Fedex Ground and Fedex Express both exist. Fedex Express ships by air. Fedex Ground takes a truck. Fedex Express ships faster. Fedex Ground costs less. Some people need their product delivered in a day. Other people need their product shipped and are trying to control costs and ships it the method that costs less and can wait a week for it to get where it is going. Neither stands to put the other out of business because the other exists.
The same would be true if a J6 ship could deliver the same cargo to a system 1 parsec away in a day-ish and a J1 takes a week.

Yes, I think you nailed it. I was incorrect about J2's displacing J1's. Yours is the more reasoned explanation.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Empty hex jumps - A3 Twilight's Peak, The Traveller Adventure, A5 Trillion credit squadron all mention them.

 

[sideranautae]

Empty hex jumps - A3 Twilight's Peak, The Traveller Adventure, A5 Trillion credit squadron all mention them.

Various places Rift jumping is described with aux tanks too.

 

[Reynard]

No problem jumping to empty space and, I assume, you only use fuel for the actual Jump distance so a jump 3 drive has fuel for a J3, three J1s or a J1 and a J2. A J2 drive ship can jump into then out of an empty hex. J3 ship making a J2 jump into an empty hex is bad if there are no J1 systems nearby! The question is why would you go to empty space?

"Jump rules don't prohibit jumping anywhere but inside 100D limit."

You can jump within 100D! You can jump while sitting on the ground. HOWEVER, it is a very bad idea. (-8 to Misjump roll)

Makes for a helluva story. Surrounded by the enemy while fighters above wait to blast you if you take off. As your foes begin to break down the airlock and do horrible things to you, the ship lifts off but now hovers not far off the ground. An unknown yet disturbing noise grows and there's a glow. Enemy gets far back and prepares the big guns. A few minutes later the glow becomes a tangible bubble and some on the ground shriek and run knowing and disbelieving what's happening! The ship seems to fold on itself three dimensionally and vanishes.... (Ref makes a Misjump roll in secret. One player sighs in relief because the ref IS making a Misjump roll and didn't say game over.)

 

[sideranautae]

The question is why would you go to empty space?

Because you have the fuel but not the jump drive rating to reach the star system you want to go to. That's how Free Traders leave the Jump 1 Mains to go elsewhere...

 

[Reynard]

Ah. Very true. A very rare example of possible TL 9-10 limit on the local star faring industry and a poor jump terrain linking trade opportunities but you are right. Good trick for trader vessels that can sacrifice some cargo space.