Today's question; Jump rating as a Speed?

[sideranautae]

Don't get me wrong an imperial fleet will be at a bigger disadvantage vs a zho fleet. Imp fleet will retreat to their base after a loss and find the base in flames.

Why? I haven't used the OTU is a couple of decades but, back then the Zho had a max TL of 14. So, slower ships/fleet than the Imp's.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Seriously, time means nothing? In the OTU better engines mean greater distance for the time expended.

I don't see this as a big difference. I mean if you have a jump 1 engine, and you're going 2 parsecs, it still takes 2 weeks to get there. If you have a jump 2 engine, it still takes a week. So far, no difference at all. It only comes when you hit a jump 3 engine.

Of all the ships in Traders and Gunboats (the book I use the most for ships in my games) that are 100 tons or larger (so no drones or small ships), there are 19 ships that are Jump 2 or less and 16 that are jump 3 or greater (10 of which are in the Warship section, and tend to get significantly less use in my games).

 

[dmccoy1693]

Why? I haven't used the OTU is a couple of decades but, back then the Zho had a max TL of 14. So, slower ships/fleet than the Imp's.

My Imp ships tends to be TL 12-13 and my zho ships tend to be TL 13-14.

 

[sideranautae]

Seriously, time means nothing? In the OTU better engines mean greater distance for the time expended.

I don't see this as a big difference. I mean if you have a jump 1 engine, and you're going 2 parsecs, it still takes 2 weeks to get there. If you have a jump 2 engine, it still takes a week. So far, no difference at all.

If you are going 1 parsec in a Jump 1 ship it takes 1 week. If you are going 1 p.c. in a J2 ship it takes 1/2 week. So, unless you are doing math in some alternate universe, 1/2 ≠ 1.

 

[sideranautae]

My Imp ships tends to be TL 12-13 and my zho ships tend to be TL 13-14.

Your house rules are relevant when it comes to statements about the OTU.

 

[dmccoy1693]

If you are going 1 parsec in a Jump 1 ship it takes 1 week. If you are going 1 p.c. in a J2 ship it takes 1/2 week.

Sure, that's different. But I don't see it as earth-shattering. Well, it would be if this was real life, but this is a game. You blink out, you blink in somewhere else and time passes. Does it matter to most of the players if today is the 23rd of the month or the 25th? Not really. Heck, some of the gamers I've played with can't even tell what year it is.

I mean, here's a few differences, I can see:

• Games where a message needs to be delivered in X days, meaning the players need to board/steal a ship with jump X drive (which can be done now as long as the destination is over a longer distance).
• Training time (I give my players the week in jump space so they can use that time to train up to get the next skill that much easier. They just count up the number of jumps they made to determine the time that passed. With jump time being variable, figuring out training time will not be as easy).
• Adventures where you attempting to outrun a foe that has a ship with a higher jump rating than you. Would require the players to be smarter in their actions. This again, can still be done as long as longer distance is used.

Of all of these, the one I consider to have the biggest impact is training time.

 

[sideranautae]

Sure, that's different. But I don't see it as earth-shattering.

It would mean, using spec trade system, J2 ships would dominate J1 routes as they would snap up any "deals". Thus, J1 Free traders would be almost nonexistent. If you think for a few minutes MANY more implications of broad nature become self evident...

 

[dmccoy1693]

Your house rules are relevant when it comes to statements about the OTU.

Well my zho warships come from Alien Book Zho (which are mostly TL 13-14). My Imperial ships come from the warships section of Traders and Gunboats which heavily favors TL 12-13. So I don't think that is house rules.

 

[sideranautae]

Well my zho warships come from Alien Book Zho (which are mostly TL 13-14). My Imperial ships come from the warships section of Traders and Gunboats which heavily favors TL 12-13. So I don't think that is house rules.

Irrelevant. Those are sample designs. NOT what Marc has spec'ed for Cannon Fleet composition mix in the OTU. See relevant canon material on TL of front line Main star ship battle units of Imp fleets.

 

[dmccoy1693]

It would mean, using spec trade system, J2 ships would dominate J1 routes as they would snap up any "deals". Thus, J1 Free traders would be almost nonexistent. If you think for a few minutes MANY more implications of broad nature become self evident...

I'm not saying there is NO difference. I'm saying that that is not earth-shatteringly important to a game. That is huge in real life. For a game, not so much, IMO. Again, to players that means you get there X days earlier. So what. It means the same roll of the dice, the same amount of time at the table when they say they are jumping out of the system. From the players' prospective, its all the same. So I don't see it as a huge difference.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Irrelevant. Those are sample designs.

Considering they are straight out of the book, I don't think they are irrelevant. I think they are the definition of relevant.

Infact, I consider that more relevant than conversion from previous editions. Things change from edition to edition. Some for the better. Some for the worse. Mostly, however, it is a matter of opinion.

But I'm sticking with the OTU as it is presented in MGT, where the Imperium ships are largely TL 12-13 (with some TL 14 and 15 ships thrown in there, but they are rare, and plenty of TL 10-11 ships still kicking around but mostly on worlds that are less up to speed with Imperial standards). And the Zho ships have TL 13-14 ships.

EDIT: I just checked Trillion Credit Squadron. All the ships in there are of the Imperial 5th fleet. They are TL 12-13. Again, I think I'm on solid footing with my choices as far as canon goes.

 

[GypsyComet]

EDIT: I just checked Trillion Credit Squadron. All the ships in there are of the Imperial 5th fleet. They are TL 12-13.

That is very odd. Looks like someone designated the TLs for only the drives (Imp typically wants J4 for line ships) and missed that they need TL14+ for the armor, screens, and spinal mounts. Those are the deciding factors for fleet superiority.

 

[dmccoy1693]

they need TL14+ for the armor, screens, and spinal mounts.

Crystaliron is TL 10, Spinal mounts can be as low as TL 8 with 5 of the 9 listed types in High Guard being TL 11-12, and screens are TL 12. Am I missing something?

 

[Reynard]

Setting material used to list the Imperium as TL 14 with some tech advances in TL 14But that was between the Fifth Frontier War and Rebellion Era. What is the time frame for Mongoose?

dmccoy, you're bouncing between story device and game mechanics to prove your point. Thing is it's both and both are affected by a significant change such as the jump physics. The jump physics were created specifically for the influence and flavor on the game system. It's about systems separated by time and distance in trade, communication and personal contact. Just because every adventure doesn't directly address the time it doesn't invalidate the significance of what is there.

Jump 1 in the Traveller universe is as limiting to interaction whether your ship is a TL 9 prototype or a state of the art TL 15 and there's the flavor of this universe just like ships of sail plying seas and oceans not necessarily faster but better able to go long distance.

If the time in jump is never being used then the referee ain't doing their job! That's Traveller Downtime and the ref should use it to say "What are you doing for a week?" Build, gadgets, repair equipment, HEAL, study, exercise, interrogate prisoners especially those Extended Action tasks as you will not be disturbed and can move down the Time Frame Table 2 rows no problem and your companions can Aid another without distraction.

Also remember the characters are aging... a lot.

Once again, the difference does affect the game.

 

[sideranautae]

Setting material used to list the Imperium as TL 14 with some tech advances in TL 14

Setting material had TL 15 black globes by the FFW. Imp TL at 15. Even the backwater of the Imperium has quite a few planets at TL F before FFW. (see published data on Spinward Marches Sector going back to CT pub dates.) The Imp wasn't at TL 14 back then. It i also TL 15 for the MGT setting.

 

[GypsyComet]

Most of the civilian Imperium ticks along at TL12-13. Naval superiority depends on the best available tech, and a TL15 spinal mount and meson screen is, or should be, better than those available at TL13 or 14.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Setting material used to list the Imperium as TL 14 with some tech advances in TL 14But that was between the Fifth Frontier War and Rebellion Era. What is the time frame for Mongoose?

That is just plain wrong.
The Imperium is TL15 throughout the CT golden age.

 

[sideranautae]

Most of the civilian Imperium ticks along at TL12-13. Naval superiority depends on the best available tech, and a TL15 spinal mount and meson screen is, or should be, better than those available at TL13 or 14.

Yep. Armor is also better at TL 15. Many components can be smaller than at TL's 13-14 too. More advantage because of increased tonnage for other mil items.

 

[dmccoy1693]

dmccoy, you're bouncing between story device and game mechanics to prove your point.

I thought I was answering the OP more than any others have thus far. The OP asked:

So the simple question is how much does the game change using a ship's jump rating as it's maximum speed instead of range?

Emphasis mine.

As a game, "little of any significance" is still my answer. All of my responses about what happens in game have been responses to other comments. I do agree, it would have huge ramifications if this was the real world. But the OP asked about the game and the net result is, from a game prospective, little.

If you want to go in game, lets go in world for a moment. Take Sideranautae's comment about how J2 ships would put J1 ships out of business. That is possible, until you realize that a J2 trader would charge more than a J1 trader for getting goods delivered in half the time. So I can't agree with his assertion that all J1's would go out of business. A J1 ship would still eep out a living because they can undercutting the competition. Or they can transport a larger volume. Ton for ton, a J1 ship can devote more room to cargo than a J2. If the volume is more important than the delivery date than the J1 wins. (real world analogy: large u-haul vs cargo van. Sure the cargo van is more nimble, accelerates faster and will be all around easier to drive for someone not use to a large behicle, but if you're moving an entire house worth of stuff, the cargo van will have to make multiple trips while the large u-haul does it all at once.) Again, I can't agree with the assessment that all J1's will be out of business.

I don't see the age of sail feel flavor being impacted at all. Communication is still delivered via ships going from system to system. Speculative trading is still speculative trading. Biggest difference I see with that is that perishable goods can have a wider distribution. So you can deliver fruit without it rotting in your hold. You can deliver steak and milk instead of cows. But unless the colony is tiny (Population 4-), or you are unique goods (angus beef as opposed to ... regular cow beef), or you're talking alot of really really big ships, local farms make more sense. Real world analogy again: sure, we import our bananas from South America where they arrive in the grocery store less than 2 days ago, but most of the food we eat is grown or bred in our country. The bananas would probably come from the US if they could be grown in the US. Same logic would apply in the future. So again, I don't see a huge impact other than, "You are delivering apples," vs "You are delivering apple juice."

I mean here are some things off the top of my head that I feel will change the game far more than jump distance vs jump speed.

• not blinking out of reality/travelling through real space (like warp engines or hyperdrives)
• missiles doing a respectable amount of damage

 

[Reynard]

I checked a few sources and I'm sure there are more, a lot more, I would need to check too. One source (MegaTraveller Referee Companion) show the Imperium has an average Tech Level of 13 which makes sense considering the random distribution of TL. Library data shows Capital is TL 15 representing the peak of the Imperium even though there are a sprinkling of TL 16+. The TL 15 worlds around the Imperium can be considered the elite of worlds though the influence of Starport and Population will determine if they are actually important. Not all TL 15s have the industrial base to produce ships and weapons at that tech while there are many world with the capacity to produce many more lower TL products in service to the Imperium. I saw one source (Spinward Marches Campaign) state that SELECTED ships have Jump 5 by the time of the Fifth Frontier War. That means Jump 6 is still fairly new and yet to become standard and not all ships have the best of the best systems. I'd have to check, or ask others here if they already did, what the Mongoose designs have for tech level for fleet components. From what I can speculate, there a very few high end fleets manufactured by rare high tech shipyards while the majority of Imperial fleets are closer to TL 13. Might also explain why Mongoose ship designs casually imply about TL 12-13.