Throwing weapons and combat style confusion

[marit]

If someone had a combat style of daggers does that apply to throwing the dagger as well or does it require a seperate skill? I see a note on it in the list that it takes no penalties when thrown but I don't see where anything suffers any penalties when thrown. I feel like I'm missing something.

Also I'm a bit confused on using ranged weapons in melee, lets just use a very likely scenario of a recurve bow. What skill would I use to attack/parry with it? It's size is H which just seems terribly wrong to me, a sword should be able to block all of the damage from getting smacked by a bow.

Hopefully someone can enlighten me.

 

[Dan True]

If someone had a combat style of daggers does that apply to throwing the dagger as well or does it require a seperate skill? I see a note on it in the list that it takes no penalties when thrown but I don't see where anything suffers any penalties when thrown. I feel like I'm missing something.

Use your dagger combat skill to throw it. For other stuff, use the Athletics skill. or whichever is higher.

Also I'm a bit confused on using ranged weapons in melee, lets just use a very likely scenario of a recurve bow. What skill would I use to attack/parry with it? It's size is H which just seems terribly wrong to me, a sword should be able to block all of the damage from getting smacked by a bow.

The H is for its ranged attacks - i.e. it hits so hard that it will ignore small parries, from bucklers for instance.

 

[strega]

Using Ranged Weapons in Close Combat see p110 of Legend.
Weapons that have no line in the Ranged Weapons table probably count as Improvised Weapons and, by implication, take a -2 to the damage roll, using the Athletics skill (Legend p 47) for the attack. You could of course use the Athletics skill for all thrown weapons, reserving the Combat Styles for bows, slings, javelins etc.

The size of a ranged weapon refers to the effect of the missile when being parried see p105 of Legend.

So heater shields can completely parry missiles of size Large or less (light crossbows etc.), halve damage from missiles of size Huge (e.g. long bow and heavy crossbow), and allow the wielder to take full damage from missiles of size Enormous (e.g. arbalests).

Bucklers parry missiles of size M or less, halve damage from missiles that are Large, etc.

 

[marit]

Thanks for the clarifications. I figured I had missed a few things.

So if someone wanted to throw a sword or something thats not meant to be thrown, they would roll athletics to attack with it and it would also suffer a -2 damage for being an improvised weapon?

 

[strega]

Or a chair, beer mug, anything like that.

Most situations commonly encountered have a way to handle them, but without a comprehensive index they can be hard to find. A pdf is ideal for this as the search feature is usually able to pin down the reference and then you can add a bookmark to the pdf so you'll find it again.

As Legend is very similar in it's mechanisms to many other D100 games you can often just port across a rule from say Call of Cthulhu or BRP or other games and it fits right in.

Some rules may not be in a section where you think they might be i.e. the use of a ranged weapon in melee isn't in the Close Combat or the Ranged Combat section but in the Equipment section alongside the descriptions of the weapons.

 

[jesussan]

If someone had a combat style of daggers does that apply to throwing the dagger as well or does it require a seperate skill? I see a note on it in the list that it takes no penalties when thrown but I don't see where anything suffers any penalties when thrown. I feel like I'm missing something.

Use your dagger combat skill to throw it. For other stuff, use the Athletics skill. or whichever is higher.

I am not sure... Dagger as throwing weapon can be found in Ranged Combat Table (page 109), right? Ranged Combat Style got 2xDEX as Basic Percentage (page 14). So, it would be strange to use Close Combat Style with its STR+DEX Basic Percantage for ranged weapons...

Its getting stranger with for example Rapier and Pistol Style... What Basic Percantage we should use for that kind of style? 2xDEX (sounds good for pistol) or STR+DEX (reasonable only for rapier)?

In my opinion this kind of mixed styles negates sense to distinguish Basic Percentage for Close Combat Styles and Ranged Combat Styles.

 

[DamonJynx]

Its getting stranger with for example Rapier and Pistol Style... What Basic Percantage we should use for that kind of style? 2xDEX (sounds good for pistol) or STR+DEX (reasonable only for rapier)?

In my opinion this kind of mixed styles negates sense to distinguish Basic Percentage for Close Combat Styles and Ranged Combat Styles.

The idea with mixed styles, IMO, is to use the primary weapon to determine the base %. So, if you were creating a Solomon Kane type character (Rapier & Pistol) it would make more sense to use the melee weapon for the base % as this is the primary weapon (pistols take to long to reload once fired, so at best if you have 2 pistols you could get 2 shots off). It is also important to remember that Combat Styles are not the be all and end all, they are a tool to allow GM's and players to create styles that suit a particular NPC or PC focusing more on culture & profession than mechanical benefit.

 

[jesussan]

So, if you were creating a Solomon Kane type character (Rapier & Pistol) it would make more sense to use the melee weapon for the base % as this is the primary weapon (pistols take to long to reload once fired, so at best if you have 2 pistols you could get 2 shots off).

This explanation is acceptable, but still that point of view allow You to shoot with pistol on STR-based skill (You need it for pulling trigger or what?), what is negation of rule that Ranged Combat Skills are based on 2xDEX. I just cant agree with unlogical exceptions for own rules, when they arent necessary for better gameplay. In simply words - i think benefits from this exception are smaller then confusion that they couse.

Afterall, there arent many unlogical, conflicting rules in Legend system, applied only for facilitate the focusing on roleplaying... So maybe its just needless invention arising from the omission?

In my opinion styles should never mix Close Combat and Ranged Combat. And i think sentence from page 13 ('Close Combat styles and Ranged Combat styles are special skills for using weapones.') and little table with Basic Percentage from page 14 indirectly suggest that these are separate skills. In addition, if Im right in the core rulebook, there is no example fort such a strange mix...

PS. Sorry for my poor english.

 

[DamonJynx]

So, if you were creating a Solomon Kane type character (Rapier & Pistol) it would make more sense to use the melee weapon for the base % as this is the primary weapon (pistols take to long to reload once fired, so at best if you have 2 pistols you could get 2 shots off).

This explanation is acceptable, but still that point of view allow You to shoot with pistol on STR-based skill (You need it for pulling trigger or what?), what is negation of rule that Ranged Combat Skills are based on 2xDEX. I just cant agree with unlogical exceptions for own rules, when they arent necessary for better gameplay. In simply words - i think benefits from this exception are smaller then confusion that they couse.

Afterall, there arent many unlogical, conflicting rules in Legend system, applied only for facilitate the focusing on roleplaying... So maybe its just needless invention arising from the omission?

In my opinion styles should never mix Close Combat and Ranged Combat. And i think sentence from page 13 ('Close Combat styles and Ranged Combat styles are special skills for using weapones.') and little table with Basic Percentage from page 14 indirectly suggest that these are separate skills. In addition, if Im right in the core rulebook, there is no example fort such a strange mix...

PS. Sorry for my poor english.

I agree with you and very nearly put that in my post. It is much easier and makes more sense to separate the ranged components. In my example above, the Rapier & Pistol style should reflect using the pistol to club or parry and have a separate skill for pistol shooting. Every GM and player will have different views, however, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

As another example; I created some NPC's and gave them the combat style Backstabber (Sword & Dagger, Bow) - it was for some hired thugs/thieves - but then removed the bow component and put that as its own skill, which works a lot better.

 

[jesussan]

In my example above, the Rapier & Pistol style should reflect using the pistol to club or parry and have a separate skill for pistol shooting.

Oh! Thank You for clarifying - this makes a lot of sense.

 

[Harshlax]

Or you adopt the rules alteration in RQ6 and simply make all combat styles have a skill base of STR + DEX.

That would also solve the entire issue.

 

[jesussan]

Or you adopt the rules alteration in RQ6 and simply make all combat styles have a skill base of STR + DEX.

That would also solve the entire issue.

But in my opinion using STR characteristic to 'pulling trigger of pistol' is ridiculous... DamonJynx's solution sounds better for me.

 

[Harshlax]

Or you adopt the rules alteration in RQ6 and simply make all combat styles have a skill base of STR + DEX.

That would also solve the entire issue.

But in my opinion using STR characteristic to 'pulling trigger of pistol' is ridiculous... DamonJynx's solution sounds better for me.

Ultimately is up to you, but you could argue that Strength has a role in controlling the recoil of the firearm from disrupting the accuracy. But essentially it is a rules system to enable players to put improvement rolls in skills other than just combat and still remain at par in combat as well.

 

[DamonJynx]

But essentially it is a rules system to enable players to put improvement rolls in skills other than just combat and still remain at par in combat as well.

This is the intent of Combat Styles. As I said in my earlier post, it's about more than just the mechanics. Ultimately it will make little difference what characteristics are used. While DEX*2 is appropriate for bows and to a certain extent, thrown weapons, one doesn't have to be overly dextrous to point a gun and pull a trigger, neither do you have to be very strong. It's up to GM's and the players to agree what makes sense and is appropriate culturally and professionally in their campaign world regarding Combat Styles. Which is really the beauty of this gaming system regardless of version. It's a very robust system and unless you do something really silly, hard to 'break'.

 

[Cyporiean]

While DEX*2 is appropriate for bows and to a certain extent, thrown weapons, one doesn't have to be overly dextrous to point a gun and pull a trigger, neither do you have to be very strong.

Which is why Historia Rodentia uses DEX+INT for Firearms, but that doesn't help much with mixed combat styles.

 

[Loz]

Firearms do require a degree of strength. Black powder weapons are heavy, and difficult to keep true for any period of time without exertion (especially if taking deliberate aim over a period of time) - which is why muskets were often supported on a monopod. Compensating for recoil is also partially STR based too, so there are good arguments for maintaining a STR+DEX base for such combat styles, and why we've done so in RQ6.

Its also perfectly acceptable to have melee and ranged weapons in the same style. A James Coburn From the Magnificent 7 style knife fighter would be trained in lobbing and stabbing with his switchblades as part of the same style. Samurai were trained in katana and bow to equal levels of skill. Roman legionnaires trained with shortsword, scutum and pilum (and note Maximus hurling his sword during the execution scene in Gladiator)...

The general confusion comes from STR+DEX and DEX x2 for the respective bases. We did that to maintain compatibility with MRQ1, but in reality, STR+DEX is a far better modelling and gets around the general complexities.

 

[DamonJynx]

The general confusion comes from STR+DEX and DEX x2 for the respective bases. We did that to maintain compatibility with MRQ1, but in reality, STR+DEX is a far better modelling and gets around the general complexities.

Thanks for you input Loz, that makes a great deal of sense.

 

[jesussan]

I agree - this all sound reasonable. But according to...

And i think sentence from page 13 ('Close Combat styles and Ranged Combat styles are special skills for using weapones.') and little table with Basic Percentage from page 14 indirectly suggest that these are separate skills.

...all those mixed styles sounds a little bit like houserule. Or maybe i am missing something in rulebook?

I got one more (maybe ending) question:
What do You think, ACCORDING TO LEGENDs CORE RULEBOOK, when i got any Combat Style with Dagger inside, do i am well skilled for throwing this Dagger (which is in Ranged Combat Weapons table) too?

 

[strega]

Mixed combat styles aren't a special house rule. Combat styles aren't well explained in the basic Legend rule book but are in a Signs and Portents article (free to download from Mongoose).

A Combat style is basically the weapons that a character can be expected to know based on his background.
An early Roman legionary would have say Pilum, short sword, dagger, shield all at his Combat style percentage.
A later legionary might have darts, long sword, short spear, shield all at his combat style percentage.

It is down to the campaign designer to say;
Combat Styles for this campaign are:
Barbarian combat style - Long sword, 2 handed axe, dagger, shield and spear.
Town Militia combat style - Short sword, long spear, dagger
Early Greek Hoplite combat style - Large Round shield, short spear, short sword
Rogue - Rapier, main gauche, dagger
Anyone with a dagger can throw it at base DEX x2 or at Athletics skill depending on which is higher.

There you have it. As campaign designer you can say that everyone can throw a dagger at Athletics skill percentage or at Combat style percentage - it's your campaign.

Don't get hung up on combat styles being melee or ranged styles. If YOU want to make them separate then YOU make them separate.

 

[jesussan]

Huh... Maybe my english is so bad or You just dont understood my last confusion.

I know that as a game master i can vary basic rules as i wish - i am not asking 'if i can make own version of Legends rule'. Now I just wanna know how would Legends rulebook (not additional, even realistic and logical, rules) explain this simply situation: character got Close Combat Style named 'Short Sword and Dagger' and wanna throw Dagger. Can he use this Close Combat style or should he use Athletic or other, proper Ranged Combat Style? Is there any answer in rules for this or this is just hole in main rules?

You said...

Mixed combat styles aren't a special house rule.

...but i really cant find any sentence in rulebook supporting this. On the contrary there are sentences, suggesting that the mixing skills would be inappropriate (previously mentioned pages 13 and 14).