Thoughts on the Dark Imperium

[WHULorigan]

Another interesting observation is that with 5 Frontier Wars, all of them have been a "Coalition" against the Imperium, and the Coalition members have been the Zhodani Consulate allied with several otherwise independence-loving and/or individualistic polities or groups, namely the Vargr and the Sword Worlds Confederation. The Swordies and the Vargr seem to have always seen they have a greater common cause with the "mind-controlling/totalitarian" Zhodani than with the Imperium.

Now maybe they get psionically manipulated by the Zhodani to form a Coalition with them, but the natural culture of both of those groups seems to otherwise be at odds with the purported Consular worldview.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Adventure 1 Kinunir, also 1979, gives us the Regina subsector from S:3,
"Location: This adventure takes place in the Regina subsector, located on the far spinward edge of the Imperium, about 44 weeks by express boat from the ruling core, and more than three years out by ordinary transport. The lmperium itself is a far-flung empire of 281 subsectors and over 11000 worlds.
Dates: All dates herein conform to the Imperial calendar. The initial date of this booklet is 001-1105; 001 is the current day (in fact, New Year's Day) in the standard 365-day year, while 1105 is the current year of the Imperium. Once the adventure begins, time should proceed normally"
we even have the calendar...

Later we get library data on:
Ancients, battle cruisers, Battle of two suns, black globes, express boat network, festival on Rethe, Forbolden project, General Shipyards, Imperial edict 97, Imperial warrant, Imperial stationery, interdiction, Iolanthe, lanthanum, oberlindes lines, prison hulk, psionics, psionic institutions, Strephon, travel zones, tree kraken, and verbal override

I would say they have the Imperium pretty much fleshed out by now.

Add the library data from A:2 and A:3 and the original Imperium is all there.

Then they changed it. How do I know they changed it? Because in A:3 it was stated:

"Capital (CapitallCore 0508-A586A98-F): Central world of the lrnperiurn and seat of government since its founding. Situated in the center of the Imperium, Capital's astrographical location has proven of prime importance, as it controls the only gap in the Rifts for thousands of parsecs. Besides being a communications hub, Capital is a cultural and educational center."

So as they revised the rules in 81 they also began revising the setting.

Not that the revision matters, even the so called good Imperium isn't if it operates the way it is described even up to today. If nobles directly directed worlds to improve the living standards of the citizens (which they don't), if nobles allowed for tariffs to trade so that lower TL wolds could develop their own industries (which they ban outright), if citizens were allowed to elect their subsector government (suggest it and your world get glassed)...

 

[Sigtrygg]

We disagree. Supplement 3 is at best a vague sketch.
It's also very different in tone from products produced only a year later.

Yes we disagree,
A vague sketch , that is clutching at straws. It is a fully fleshed out setting especially when you consider that Supplement 3 is only one of several setting sources produced in that year, and the same Imperium was being used right through to the advent of the Library Data Supplements, which is where you get the noticeable changes.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Another interesting observation is that with 5 Frontier Wars, all of them have been a "Coalition" against the Imperium, and the Coalition members have been the Zhodani Consulate allied with several otherwise independence-loving and/or individualistic polities or groups, namely the Vargr and the Sword Worlds Confederation. The Swordies and the Vargr seem to have always seen they have a greater common cause with the "mind-controlling/totalitarian" Zhodani than with the Imperium.

Now maybe they get psionically manipulated by the Zhodani to form a Coalition with them, but the natural culture of both of those groups seems to otherwise be at odds with the purported Consular worldview.

Prior to the retcon of the retcon of the retcon, the reason for Zhodani frontier wars is always the same. To restrict and push back on Imperial expansion into the Spinward Marches. The Vargr and the Sword Worlds are not in favout of Imperial Expansion, and nor are many nominally Imperial citizens it seems...

 

[Vormaerin]

Ask yourself where Omicron Division is mentioned in MgT Third Imperium lore. Are they mentioned in The Third Imperium setting book that would surely contain such details?
No, they are made up by an author to suit their version of the Third Imperium. Why not use Agents? Or at least consider the ramifications of this group and why they have never been mentioned ever before.

They are IRIS all over again.

I am aware that they are a terrible idea. My point was that Imperial Warrants and their extreme authority are a thing in MgT print, not just AotI.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Yep.
The Fifth Frontier War completed the reversal of that initial depiction, showing the Ine Givar were terrorists fully willing to inflict civilian casualties and ultimately under Zhodani control.

And that is when the great switcheroo happened, the propaganda gets pumped up, and the FFW suddenly presents the Imperium as the good guys.
Forget Norris locking up political prisoners, he's a war hero.
Ine Givar - first they deny they exist, then they class them as rebels (some would say freedom fighters) then terrorists and fifth columnists.
As to their portrayal of the Zhodani, they are psychic ISIS...

 

[Bense]

Another interesting observation is that with 5 Frontier Wars, all of them have been a "Coalition" against the Imperium, and the Coalition members have been the Zhodani Consulate allied with several otherwise independence-loving and/or individualistic polities or groups, namely the Vargr and the Sword Worlds Confederation. The Swordies and the Vargr seem to have always seen they have a greater common cause with the "mind-controlling/totalitarian" Zhodani than with the Imperium.

Now maybe they get psionically manipulated by the Zhodani to form a Coalition with them, but the natural culture of both of those groups seems to otherwise be at odds with the purported Consular worldview.

It's an alliance of convenience, "enemy of my enemy"-type situation. The Imperium are more obviously expansionist than the Zhodani and therefore viewed as a greater threat for the Sword Worlds, and the Imperium are allies of their enemies the Darrians.

From the Zhodani perspective Sword World society appears just as mentally unhealthy to them as the Imperium does, if not more so. They are merely much less powerful, and therefore not as much of a threat to them.

 

[Bense]

There are other explanations for this...

Like?

Bland learns in the afterlife the name of his grandson (Jonathan), that his vengeance on the funeral monument director Fen Imiirga was successful, and most significantly, that the Krand palace on the scrubbed world of Deyis II had physical records of the Niikiik Luur (forbidden lore) and that there were embryos stored in the same vault. When Bland next has a chance to look at Deyis, hundreds of years after he had scrubbed the planet, he finds the vault under the Krand palace, retrieves the embryos, and has them provided for. In the afterlife he sees that he was successful.
He is less successful at retrieving the Niikiik Luur, but the novel never reveals why.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Ever stop to think that as an electronic personality a nefarious actor could manipulate the code and add stuff that Bland then experiences as dreams or memories.
Every time his wafers sync the sum total of all the events he has taken part in are added to the collective personality memory. His wafer memories are the sum total of everything he has experienced and then synced.

So what if someone were to edit his wafer and introduce new memories, we know that wafers can be edited and manipulated, in order to point him in the direction.

My conclusion is that there is someone manipulating Bland...

Or...

electronic personalities more easily access the collective consciousness of the quantum foam of the universe...

or...

the whole thing is a simulation

or...

the holographic universe principle applies to the Third Imperium reality, and electronic personalities can step outside the holgram the same way psionicists do

or

a demon from the dark dimensions is manipulating Bland...

 

[Vormaerin]

Or Bland himself on another chip incarnation learns this information and this is part of the sync process.

 

[Sigtrygg]

We know that upon occasion the Bland personality takes over the host permanently...

 

[Terry Mixon]

We know that upon occasion the Bland personality takes over the host permanently...

Who is to say that one of the Bland incarnations never started cloning those unfortunates and hasn't continued expanding his contiguous life? Or, perhaps, he has afflicted select people with the condition that allowed it to happen? Bland the immortal.

 

[actionman]

they were intended to be the "good guys".

Then the Imperium the writers wrote was a very poor "good guy", to the point where it failed to be a "good guy" at all. This is according to statements from Traveller canon referred to in this thread, not according to headcanon I made up.

They flat out depicted the Imperium as the bad guys in the early adventures, there is no gray area here. The intent was Imperial = baddies. Over time the intent was modified.

What else came out in 1977: Star Wars, with it's quintessential Evil Empire(tm). (as mentioned previously by @WHULorigan)

Once the Third Imperium setting was codified in 1980 they were intended as the good guys.

Then let's look at canon sources from 1980 and later.

LBB 3, 1981

The typical methods used in lifeby 20th century Terrans (thrift, dedication, and hard work) do not work inTraveller. pg 48
Still, this might not be the Imperium's fault.

From the The Traveller Adventure, 1983

"This dependence of communication on transportation forces institutions of interstellar scope to be decentralized. Officials and military officers must have considerable freedom of action... Entire worlds within the lmperium conduct their affairs with little or no interaction with the higher levels of Imperial government." pg 10

"Honor and trust take on new significance when members of a chain of command must depend on subordinates to carry out instructions without direct personal supervision." pg. 10
Ok, so far so good, but this means that subordinates can be relied on to do what they're told.

"Greed, ambition, and chaos have great potential when there is such a long delay in communication." pg. 10
This is not the Imperium's fault.

"It is more accurate to say that the lmperium rules the oceans of space between the islands that are the star systems and worlds than to say that it rules the worlds themselves. (This does not say the Imperium does not or cannot rule its worlds itself). The Imperial Navy guards the borders against foreign attack, keeps the trade routes free of piracy, and protects member worlds from aggression by other member worlds. The Scout Service encourages trade by publishing accurate planetary and interstellar charts, contacting new markets beyond the borders, and administering the express boat service for swift transfer of information. Other services of the Imperial government include the enforcement of a basic framework of laws governing interstellar commerce, funding of basic research in all branches of science, economic and military aid to member worlds whose internal stability is threatened, and many others. In return for and in support of all the Imperium provides, its member worlds pay taxes" pg 10.
So, Imperial worlds do too pay taxes. This necessitates interacting with the Imperial authorities on planet. Piracy exists. Member worlds commit aggression against other member worlds to the point the Imperial Navy has to guard against it. The Imperium renders military and economic aid to member worlds, so it does too interfere. Still, so far so good. This is all ordinary governmental stuff, not dark.

"It has lasted, grown, and thrived for a thousand years. Its citizens, both personal and corporate, enjoy reasonable lives and reasonable expectations of improvement. Its trillions depend on the lmperium for life, stability, and economic well-being." pg 10.
Ok, we're still doing well, this is pretty "good guy"... except it directly contradicts the statement in LBB 1 1981 pg. "The typical methods used in life by 20th century Terrans (thrift, dedication, and hard work) do not work in Traveller."

Admiral hault-Plankwell claimed victory for the Imperium, while simultaneously castigating the central lmperial authority for its lack of support during the war. Admiral hault-Plankwell's subsequent expedition to the capital and assassination of the Empress Jacqueline began the Civil War (604 to 622). pg. 14
So much for honor and trust, but these are the actions of one man. The founding and expansion of the Third Imperium is discussed in the most neutral and vague terms, like "incorporated", "absorbed", and "expanded", rather than "conquered" and "blew the sh*t out of". The failure of the Imperial government to function effectively in a time of war suggests that all is not well.

"Notes: The column headed Name gives the world's name." pg. 16
Ok, got it.

"Aran Ashkashkur is a high-level employee of the megacorporation Tukera Lines; he is the Aramis subsector head of the Vemene, Tukera's covert security agency. As such, he has tremendous authority and plans to use it to make himself rich." pg. 20
"Ashkashkur has contracted to sell the meson guns to a Vargr corsair band, the Kforuzeng, for MCr500 in cash" pg. 20
This is corrupt as all get-out. A megacorporate security head steals meson guns from the Imperial Navy and sells them to Vargr corsairs, who will probably use them against the Imperial Navy and Imperial merchant ships. This is treason. So much for honor and trust. In the social pyramid model discussed in the first post, this person would probably be at least level 3. +1 Dark.

"Sternmetal Horizons... are surreptitiously hiring third parties to transport ore from Patinir and deliver it to Junidy, under false papers... There the ore sells to the Navy at a much higher price than Sternmetal can receive through legal channels." pg. 21
An Imperial megacorporation cheating the Imperial Navy. Also Sternmetal Horizons is 49% owned by Imperial noble families. More corruption. Honor and trust go out the window. +1 Dark.

"Marquis Leonard Bolden Tukera of Aramis, nineteenth of the line, is hereditary head of the government of Aramis (the world). This translates primarily into the ability to grant favors, concessions, or jobs, usually in return for a monetary consideration. ...the Marquis is a useless profligate... He has... meddled in Tukera's local business dealings, generally in an attempt to enforce his sense of fair play; Bulolo resents these incidents, which force him to spend valuable time convincing the Marquis that what Bulolo already wants to do is morally right (difficult because it usually isn't; easy because the Marquis is gullible)." pg. 22
The city is the personal fief of the Marquis of Aramis, and all important posts and contracts are let on the Marquis' sufferance and can be cancelled a this whim." pg. 31
"The Marquis of Ararnis: As an Imperial noble, the Marquis Leonard Bolden-Tukera of Aramis holds his patent directly from the Emperor, although the channels of allegiance provide (and require) fealty to intervening nobles between him and the Emperor. The Marquisate is a hereditary position which, on Aramis, has made him ruler of the planet." pg. 35
An Imperial noble is the heredity head of a planetary government, owns the planet's only city as his personal fief, meddles in planetary business affairs, and he's corrupt as all get-out. Imperial nobles can rule worlds. And another immoral corporate official. +1 Dark.

"Eneri Giilaan is a lieutenant commander in the Imperial Navy, assigned to Naval Intelligence. He suspects that Sternmetal is engaged in something illegal, but has been told by superiors to drop the investigation. (Sternmetal has influence in the government.)" pg. 22
Senior officers in Imperial Naval Intelligence are corrupt. +1 Dark.

"Marc hault-Oberlindes, Baron Feri... delights in frustrating authority... by fancy paperwork and by playing various groups of bureaucrats against each other, he was able to obtain the ship with its high-powered armaments intact, an action which is against lmperial "policy but not strictly illegal as long as the ship doesn't enter the Imperium." pg 22
An Imperial noble frustrating his own government (and by extension, his Emperor *cough* treason *cough*) to gain a military asset illegal in the Imperium. Honor and trust out the window, +1 Dark.

"...she is kept a virtual prisoner at Tukera's facility..." pg. 23
Imperial megacorporation falsely imprisoning someone, +1 Dark.

"Gvoudzon proposes to burglarize the museum to recover" his property", and the adventurers, intrigued, join him" pg. 23
If your friends broke into a museum to steal something they stole from someone else, would you do it too? Idiots. I suppose adventures have to start somehow.

"...the crew help out in a barroom brawl..." pg. 24
And the man in the back said, "Everyone attack!" and it turned in a Barroom Blitz.

"The megacorporation Sternmetal Horizons has been meddling in local politics, and has given military aid to several nations. Many countries are on the verge of war, including Senled (supported by Sternmetal) and its neighbor Lanax." pg. 24
A megacorporation at least 49% owned by Imperial nobility is fomenting wars on Imperial member worlds. Honor and trust my *ss. +1 Dark.

"Tukera makes one more attempt at salvaging their monopoly: Vemene agents kidnap Lisa Fireau. demanding a ransom which would bankrupt Fireau et Fille." pg. 24
So, a megacorporation 32% owned by an Imperial noble family that has the family's name on it kidnaps an Imperial noble to keep a petty trade monopoly. This is the same megacorporation whose regional security chief is selling meson guns to Vargr corsairs. Honor and trust, ya ok. But seriously, this fits the social pyramid described in the initial video perfectly. +1 Dark.

"...reports begin coming in of attacks against Oberlindes shipping. Oberlindes asks the adventurers for help. He believes that Tukera has begun a tradewar, and that his only recourse is to strike back." pg. 24
Corporations owned by Imperial nobles attacking each other's ships, +1 Dark.

"The March Harrier is fitted with a transponder capable of falsifying Tukera ship identifications..." pg. 24
Illegal as hell, but what does that matter, and Imperial noble is doing it. +1 Dark.

During this adventure, the player characters are not acting against the Imperium. The Imperium is not the villain, so the argument that the Imperium was depicted in a bad light because players wanted criminal adventures doesn't hold up. Instead the adventurers are acting against corrupt megacorporate officials and corrupt Imperial nobles who were opposing Imperial law (decrees, really). This indicates that this kind of corruption exists within the higher echelons of the Imperial feudal pyramid. The Imperial nobility is corrupt, and not particularly competent.


I'd love to continue, but I have some things to do. More to follow.

 

[Condottiere]

Dominic Flandry is a fictional character and the protagonist of the second half of American writer Poul Anderson's Technic History science fiction series. He first appeared in 1951.

The space opera series is set in the 31st century, during the waning days of the Terran Empire. Flandry is a dashing field agent of the Imperial Intelligence Corps who travels the stars to fight off imminent threats to the empire from both external enemies and internal treachery. His long-time archenemy is Aycharaych, a cultured but ruthless telepathic spymaster who weaves plots for the expansionist rival empire of the alien Merseians.

The illegitimate son of a minor nobleman, Flandry rises to considerable power within the decadent Empire by his own wits, and enjoys all the pleasures his position in society gives him. Still he is painfully conscious of the impending fall of the Terran Empire and the subsequent "Long Night" of a galactic dark age. His career is dedicated to holding it off for as long as possible. In time, he passes the mantle to his daughter Diana, who is also illegitimate.

Flandry is willing to disregard conventional morality and use his foes' tactics against them. He can cheerfully deceive, seduce, and blackmail; in A Knight of Ghosts and Shadows, he orders the mind-probing of his traitorous illegitimate son, reducing him to a vegetative state, and bombards Aycharaych's uninhabited homeworld into radioactive ruin in part for vengeance, as Aycharaych's latest plot had resulted in the death of the woman he loved and planned to marry.

 

[Bense]

Or Bland himself on another chip incarnation learns this information and this is part of the sync process.

Bland synchs alternate copies of himself several times during the novel while active in one or more hosts and it's nothing like his afterlife experiences. He simply suddenly (after a moment of pain and a lingering headache) has two sets of memories for the same time period from the perspective of different hosts.
Some of the later narration is from copies that haven't been fully synched, either. For instance late in the novel he wonders whether he was the one responsible for ennobling Stikky. We the readers know he definitely was.

I suppose someone could be manipulating Bland, but who? Who would want to retrieve the embryos of the extinct population of Deyis II?

Bland does not permanently take over hosts on purpose, and usually can't. His personality resurfaced in Rens LaGash In a permanent form because Rens had some form of terminal cerebral degeneration. Basically his original personality was destroyed and the remnants of Bland from years earlier was what was left to take over.

 

[Bense]

Then the Imperium the writers wrote was a very poor "good guy", to the point where it failed to be a "good guy" at all. This is according to statements from Traveller canon referred to in this thread, not according to headcanon I made up.

As I said earlier, that is an argument that can be reasonably made. I think GDW's intent is pretty clear, though.


(*Spoiler Alert*)

Aran Ashkashkur, Tukera Lines, and their allied Vargr corsair groups are the villains of The Traveller Adventure. The Imperium itself is not. Over the course of the adventure the players are intended to defeat the villains.
Aramis subsector is described as a backwater, and the corruption and underhanded dealings going on there can't be expected to be representative of the Imperium as a whole. In fact the expected way for the players to stop Ashkashkur is to present evidence of his treachery to the Imperial government (and Oberlindes).

 

[Sigtrygg]

Bland synchs alternate copies of himself several times during the novel while active in one or more hosts and it's nothing like his afterlife experiences. He simply suddenly (after a moment of pain and a lingering headache) has two sets of memories for the same time period from the perspective of different hosts.
Some of the later narration is from copies that haven't been fully synched, either. For instance late in the novel he wonders whether he was the one responsible for ennobling Stikky. We the readers know he definitely was.

Note that it could take decades or even longer for every chip to be brought up to date. The examples you cite are all while he is occupying a host, we don't know what happens when he is a wafer in a storage cassette or in the synch-ing computers. Someone could be editing in stuff while the chip is in the computer.

I suppose someone could be manipulating Bland, but who? Who would want to retrieve the embryos of the extinct population of Deyis II?

I have wild speculations but would like to wait and see what Marc does if and when there is a sequel.

Bland does not permanently take over hosts on purpose, and usually can't. His personality resurfaced in Rens LaGash In a permanent form because Rens had some form of terminal cerebral degeneration. Basically his original personality was destroyed and the remnants of Bland from years earlier was what was left to take over.

T5 mentions it too...

I need to re-read the book, how did future Bland find out what had happened to Rens, wasn't it archives or some such added later to his knowledge store? The reports sent by Enna, did they include a wafer record from Bland/Rens?

 

[Vormaerin]

I'm not really sure what the point here is. The Imperium is a massive decentralized government. It is going to have good and bad spots. It is clearly NOT the evil Empire of Star Wars much less the grimdark parody nonsense of 40k. However, it is an autocratic government with little or no legal limits to the exercise of its power. It is going to be good or bad entirely in proportion to the character of the nearest Imperial official.

Do you have a conniving schemer like Norris in charge, with his political prison ships, secret telepath advisors, and general disregard for the legal proceedings? Not gonna be pretty.

Do you have a self-absorbed aristocrat like the Duke of Tobia in charge? A different sort of problem.

Do you have a nice, hardworking do gooder like Strephon thinks he is as your local duke? Maybe it's pretty nice in your neck of the woods, as long as he lasts.

But we *know* the Imperium is riven with ruthless trade factionalism, cyberpunk-esque megacorp corruption, and all the usual corruption that such unrestrained power encourages. We know it tolerates raving theocratic tyranny in planetary governments, prison planets, politically inspired interdicts, outright genocide, and all manner of other nastiness. If you take AotI literally, it has (or used to have) genocidaire as a career field.

It's an aristocracy with a gini coefficient of insane levels. There are Nobles with 75,000 dton former cruisers as a private yacht. Others have their own private armies. And a high paying job as a skilled starship pilot is like Cr75k a year? It's pension scheme is risible. Assuming you even get one, which the IISS doesn't. Healthcare is great if you have money. Even the freaking military doesn't necessarily pay for all your medical bills during service.

It is a great place for adventure and, like most great places for adventure, is generally not a great place to actually live unless you are one of the privileged.

 

[actionman]

Aran Ashkashkur, Tukera Lines, and their allied Vargr corsair groups are the villains of The Traveller Adventure. The Imperium itself is not. Over the course of the adventure the players are intended to defeat the villains.
Aramis subsector is described as a backwater, and the corruption and underhanded dealings going on there can't be expected to be representative of the Imperium as a whole. In fact the expected way for the players to stop Ashkashkur is to present evidence of his treachery to the Imperial government (and Oberlindes).

During this adventure, the player characters are not acting against the Imperium. The Imperium is not the villain, so the argument that the Imperium was depicted in a bad light because players wanted criminal adventures doesn't hold up. Instead the adventurers are acting against corrupt megacorporate officials and corrupt Imperial nobles who were opposing Imperial law (decrees, really). This indicates that this kind of corruption exists within the higher echelons of the Imperial feudal pyramid. The Imperial nobility is corrupt, and not particularly competent.

 

[Bense]

I'm not really sure what the point here is. The Imperium is a massive decentralized government. It is going to have good and bad spots. It is clearly NOT the evil Empire of Star Wars much less the grimdark parody nonsense of 40k. However, it is an autocratic government with little or no legal limits to the exercise of its power. It is going to be good or bad entirely in proportion to the character of the nearest Imperial official.

Pretty much, yeah. It's big enough to be whatever the Referee wants in a particular corner of it.

It is a great place for adventure and, like most great places for adventure, is generally not a great place to actually live unless you are one of the privileged.

Also true, though I think the view of players of the game is a bit skewed towards how life is on the frontier areas, since they have been the most developed over the years.

The vast majority of the Imperium's population lives on the High Population worlds in the inner sectors and never goes very far, if they venture off world at all. For them the quality of life is dependent much more on their world's government than it is on the Imperium.