Thoughts on the Dark Imperium

[Vormaerin]

Just what you said - he can't do anything that will lose him the support of the nobility. If he goes too far they may remove him through the Right of Assassination. The Moot also has the powers both to confirm the emperor and to dissolve the Imperium. As I said, the system works well if most of the nobles are honorable and genuinely concerned with the welfare of their subjects.

All the examples you're mentioning there occur during crises where immediate action is required or literally billions of people will die. Emergency situations, in other words, where having an autocratic government can be a virtue. Norris won the Fifth Frontier War Jonathan Bland saved billions of lives each time he ordered a world scrubbed.

I don't see how that changes anything? The Emperor is an autocrat. The degree of his power is primarily his personal competence, as is the case with all autocrats. But what it is not is the rule of law. The fact that the Emperor doesn't want a civil war is not a legal limit on his power. There is no legal limit to his power. That one Empress was going to scrub an entire planet because they were annoying her with their politicking. She was stopped, but not by force of law. Rather, by being clubbed over the head and her orders countermanded by Imperial Edict.

And this trickles down, because the sectors operate by the same authority. So when the Duke says "Make that guy go away", he vanishes into a gaol without trial. When Omicron Division says "We want to do this thing for reasons", the only reason they need is their Imperial Warrant.

I'm just not convinced that there was ever a government in our history where "most of the nobles are honorable and genuinely concerned with the welfare of their subjects.". At least, not beyond their ability to fulfill some useful societal function. Does Strephon seeming to be a nice guy make the Imperium not a dystopia? No. Because the person that matters is the local subsector Duke. Or the Imperial Naval Lieutenant. Or whomever is wielding their fiat in your face at the moment, which is rarely the Emperor himself.

 

[Vormaerin]

But it says the current Marquis is the 19th of the line, and also the titular head of the planetary government. It was his ancestor who got the title from Arbellatra in 631. The current Marquis inherited his noble title, yet he is still the titular ruler of the planet.

Yes, because Aramis is an oligarchy of wealthy industrialists/technocrats and the Marquis of Aramis is, independent of being an Imperial noble, the wealthiest oligarch on the planet. Aramis is a feudal technocracy. The government is organized around hereditary control of different sectors of the economy. The Bolden family already controlled the shipbuilding 'fief' of the planetary government.

They are titular head of the planetary government, because they are the wealthiest and most powerful of the technocratic oligarchs. If Strephon made someone other than Leonard Bolden-Tukera the Marquis of Aramis, Leonard would still be the first among equals amongst the planetary oligarchs.

Does it help that he's an Imperial Noble and married to a Tukera? Certainly. It's unlikely anyone limited to planetary resources is going to gain enough power to be the top oligarch. But being a leading oligarch is something the Boldens are in their own right. That isn't what the Empress granted them.

 

[Condottiere]

There does seem to be limits.

He hasn't become divine yet, and live forever.

Or even, unusually long.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Additional comment: The oppression of non-Solomani by the Solomani Confederation authorities has a lot to do with its bitter war of secession, in which the main non-Solomani populations, Vilani and Vegans, were loyal to the Imperium and thus enemies. The Solomani authorities want non-Solomani, their enemies, to leave.

A point of distinction. The Solomani autonamous zone was ruled by Sylean/Solomani nobles who got jobs within the Solomani sphere when Terra rejoined the Imperium.
Terran space never had a long night. Terran traders, explorers and colonisers continued to go about their business while the old Imperium had ceased to be. The bulk of the Terran Sphere the Third Imperium made recontact with had never been part of the Ziru Sirka or Rule of Man.
The Solomani authorities you mention trace their roots to SolomaniSyleans at the Third Imperium court, not anyone from the Terran sphere.

It is another example of only getting the Imperial version.

I'll have to read over the MgT 2e and other material to draw conclusions as to whether or not the Solomani Confederation is a Dark Confederation. Dark Solomani, that sounds a bit frightening.

Most non Solomani solomani would ignore Sol Sec and its idiocy, the confederation contains polities that openly trade with the Imperium still and take not notice of "Soloman" authority. GT hs the Solomani heading to civil war, and I think such is very likely as individual confederation lpolities tell the Solomani supremacists wher to get off.

Then again, the Solomani Confederation has never been considered benign. It is what it is, it works how it works, and it does what it does.

That's what the Imperium, those awfully nice nobles, tell you.

All of the CT Alien Modules were written by an unreliable narrator from the Imperial perspective.

Compare this to the fate of psionic individuals in the Imperium. Psionic individuals, who were loyal Imperial subjects, were hunted down and rounded up. Again, the Imperial authorities intervened drastically in planetary affairs to deal with psionic individuals.

And the persecution continues to this day, likely to get worse as the FFW kicks off.

 

[Sigtrygg]

More likely the classic Traveller had very little competition. No video games to speak of, nor any other real alternative sci-fi RPGs when it was published.

many classic Traveller fans didn't like MegaTraveller, then there were CT and MT fans who didn't like TNE. GT attracted the nice white hat Imperium crowd, but never in huge numbers.

By making them happy in their station in the Consulate, regardless of what that station is. Only psionic powers allow progression in their society, and psionics are an accident of genetics.

Proles have lots of career oportunities, especially if you go back to teh original Ct Alien Module rather than the fanon influenced late versions, proles can rise to any military rank, they can rise to any tank within a world government. They can't be members of the next tier I grant you that, but at least they get progression and status.

The Julian Protectorate of course is only half Vargr.

True, but there are aother Vargr states that have lasted centuries.

Because the war with the Hivers taught them that for the moment they are outmatched.

That was not why the K'kree halted their war.

The Hivers grant "Manipulator" as a publicly-held title.

They do indeed, but until we get the mgT Hiver sourcebook then CT, GT and TNE are the best sources for what manipulation actualy is and involves.

All mentions of the Solomani Movement and the Solomani mention the Solomani's racism, though some make it appear better than others.

Solomani is a Third Imperium term based on Vilani. The Third Imperium nobles all claimed legitimacy by Solomani descent, they invented the Solomani movement and Solomani racism which they took with them when they were granted the oversight of the Terran "confederation" and other states that joined the Third Imperium - I still don't know why they bothered to join to be honest.

I don't think any government is amoral, actually. The people running a given government may well be. In my opinion most of the world's governments are run by generally moral people, with some stand-outs.

I can not name a current government I would consider moral. The UK - nope, the French, nope - the EU, China, India, the US, Canada. Not one of them are moral.

Written laws are mentioned in the earliest sources about the Third Imperium. Adventure 1: The Kinunir mentions Imperial Edict 97 in its Library data section, "This executive order is the enabling act for the use of Imperial warrants. Unusually obscure for such a wide ranging and powerful edict, it is nonetheless on file at all Imperial installations. The edict text runs to 34 pages..."
In other words, it's a written law.

It is, and what does that law do... grants the bearer direct Imperial authority in the Emperor's name. A warrant to commit any crime or imoral act and have the authority that it must be complied with.

It is the only one mentioned and is not very nice.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The point at which the Imperium became definitely the good guys is probably JTAS 9, when the Fifth Frontier War began. That's long before GURPS Traveller.

I agree.
But no government would use the advent of a war to boost its own popularity... would it.

Yes the Emperor sets the laws and needs no input from the Moot, but they are laws by any reasonable definition. The fact that the Third Imperium is not a democracy doesn't mean the Emperor can do anything he wants.

Actually, he can. As previous emperors's have shown and Lucan will show.

If only the assassins had taken out Lucan...

 

[Sigtrygg]

I was being imprecise. I meant that psionic potential is inborn, not determined by any other known factors.
The Zhodani culture deciding that psionic potential means automatic elevation to the noble class means that people with no inherent leadership ability become leaders.

I could cite T5 but I'm not sure what MGT has to say on the matter as of yet.

Rocks are amoral, not immoral. Amoral means "lacking a moral sense". Immoral means "not conforming to standards of morality".
Governments nearly always try to appear to be conforming to the moral standards of their people, and usually the majority of the people working for the government do conform. Therefore governments are usually moral.

I have yet to see a government in this real world of ours that I consider to be anything but imoral.

Just what you said - he can't do anything that will lose him the support of the nobility.

The nobility can be removed at a whim. Hey, fleet admiral Alfonse how would you like to be sector duke of Corridor, all you have to do it take your fleet and kill all the existing sector dukes and their families.

If he goes too far they may remove him through the Right of Assassination.

The emperor has the resources to ensure this is highly unlikely, the assassination of Strephon is so contrived it is beyond belief.

The Moot also has the powers both to confirm the emperor and to dissolve the Imperium.

1. Funny how the moot is rarely mentioned prior to megaTraveller
2. Lucan shows exactly how much notice the emperor must take of the moot - he dissolved it

As I said, the system works well if most of the nobles are honorable and genuinely concerned with the welfare of their subjects.

It works if they respect the status quo and are loyal to those above them.

All the examples you're mentioning there occur during crises where immediate action is required or literally billions of people will die. Emergency situations, in other words, where having an autocratic government can be a virtue. Norris won the Fifth Frontier War Jonathan Bland saved billions of lives each time he ordered a world scrubbed.

Norris - that same Norris who locked up political prisoners and then put out a disinformation scam.
Bland - who may or may not be correct, bit late after everyone is dead.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Rocks are amoral, not immoral. Amoral means "lacking a moral sense". Immoral means "not conforming to standards of morality".
Governments nearly always try to appear to be conforming to the moral standards of their people, and usually the majority of the people working for the government do conform. Therefore governments are usually moral.

OMG! Thank you for correcting My immoral-amoral blunder. Well, that is just embarrassing.

 

[Condottiere]

I suppose, active versus passive.

 

[actionman]

Yes, because Aramis is an oligarchy of wealthy industrialists/technocrats and the Marquis of Aramis is, independent of being an Imperial noble, the wealthiest oligarch on the planet. Aramis is a feudal technocracy. The government is organized around hereditary control of different sectors of the economy. The Bolden family already controlled the shipbuilding 'fief' of the planetary government.

They are titular head of the planetary government, because they are the wealthiest and most powerful of the technocratic oligarchs. If Strephon made someone other than Leonard Bolden-Tukera the Marquis of Aramis, Leonard would still be the first among equals amongst the planetary oligarchs.

Does it help that he's an Imperial Noble and married to a Tukera? Certainly. It's unlikely anyone limited to planetary resources is going to gain enough power to be the top oligarch. But being a leading oligarch is something the Boldens are in their own right. That isn't what the Empress granted them.

Excellent clarification. I'll do more reading before deciding whether or not to respond. But, IMO, it does set the precedent that being an Imperial noble doesn't disqualify one from being the head of a planetary government, however that position is obtained. It seems plausible that a planetary fiefholder could get himself elected in a democracy of about 500,000 people by promising or even bringing greater prosperity to the world.

Most non Solomani solomani would ignore Sol Sec and its idiocy, the confederation contains polities that openly trade with the Imperium still and take not notice of "Soloman" authority. GT hs the Solomani heading to civil war, and I think such is very likely as individual confederation polities tell the Solomani supremacists where to get off.

IMO, most Solomani outside of the Sphere would've been all about "get along to go along". Interacting with Vilani would be completely normal, and I think that most Solomani would be interested in Vilani history and culture. The Solomani Movement was entirely a phenomenon of the Imperial nobility, as a reaction to the agitation of Vilani industrialists after the Civil War. The Solomani-Sylean nobles of the Solomani Rim, ruling over primarily Solomani populations, would've been a year away from the Imperial Court, and the whole kerfluffle. Sending the Solomani Movement nobles to the Rim was a disaster for everyone. Because, consider this: the Imperial nobles in the Solomani Movement never cared about the Solomani of Terra and the Rim. Probably not a one of them had ever been to Terra. They didn't care about Solomani populations of the Rim any more than they cared about any mob of poors. All they cared about was that the Vilani they looked down on were gaining access to power, privilege, and status that they alone held. When the Emperor at the time (I forget who) broke their power at court, it created a irreconcilable wedge between them and the Throne, because then they'd actually lost something. It was such a mistake to send these proud competent militaristic and angry people to a region where they could consolidate power and cause problems. They should have been split up, some sent to the Marches, some sent to Antares, and some to borders of the Extents. That and given some lucrative fiefs or prestigious commands so it wouldn't seem like a demotion.

I think that Traveller products using the word racist was a bad choice because it evokes such emotion in people, and it conflates everything about racism in rl history with the actions and attitudes of fictional Solomani, when they are not the same. The meaning of the words 'racist' and 'racism' have changed so much over time. But my biggest issue with it, as I've mentioned before on this forum, is that most races in Traveller are racist, but only the Solomani get condemned for it. The Vilani were deeply racist, and in the year 1110 they probably still are. And given how dark the Imperium and Traveller in general is, I think things like that are the least of planetary populations' worries.

Vilani guy: "People parsecs away don't like me because I'm Vilani."
Vargr guy: "I went over this one guy's house, and he had a Vargr skin rug that his dad got in the Fifth Frontier War. But I so feel for you, man."

The Solomani authorities you mention trace their roots to Solomani Syleans at the Third Imperium court, not anyone from the Terran sphere.

I would quibble. At first yes, but by 1110, I think those people connected with the Solomani Syleans would've long since retired or died natural deaths, and Solomani from the Sphere would've ascended to those positions. I think their attitudes toward the Solomani Cause and its attendant policies would be shaped much more by the devastation of the Rim War, the loss and occupation of Terra, and the tensions with the Imperium since the War. For the planetary populations of the SolCon, I think for them it's really more about hooray for our side and banish our wartime enemies.

I still don't know why they bothered to join to be honest.

I know, seriously. I don't think the Imperium could've used the military stick to incorporate the Rim. The Terran Confederation / Old Earth Union / other states would've all joined forces to resist, and the Imperium would've been fighting a major war at the very end of its supply lines, far from the Imperial Core.

It is, and what does that law do... grants the bearer direct Imperial authority in the Emperor's name. A warrant to commit any crime or imoral act and have the authority that it must be complied with.

It is the only one mentioned and is not very nice.

And that is another detail that supports the conclusion that the Imperium is dark. And then we have AotI, in which Bland shoots or has shot a loyal flag officer for wanting to be treated with respect on this own ship, and no one bats an eye. That is dark. Bland didn't say "You're relieved", have him thrown in the brig, or anything else, he had him shot. No benign government would ever tolerate that, yet in the Imperium, it's business as usual. No recourse, no nothing. Ask for respect, get shot, and like it. Life is cheap in the Imperium.

Something we're doing in this thread that is different from making another IMTU thread is that we're looking at statements from canon and drawing logical conclusions, not changing canon or adding things to make an IMTU.

Ok, Cleon the Mad and the Right of Assassination, from the traveller wiki:

Cleon III - Traveller

wiki.travellerrpg.com

"In the dynastic crisis caused by the death of Martin II without direct issue, Cleon Zhunastu, great-great-great-grandson of Cleon II by direct first issue, appeared to be the most legitimate claimant to the throne. Born in 201, proclaimed emperor by the Moot in 244, assassinated in 245.

Known also as Cleon the Mad, it appears that while his claim to the throne was flawless, he was not. His behavior in office (he resolved disagreements within his cabinet by shooting vocal opponents) soon convinced surviving members of the government that he was a homicidal maniac, and a decision to dispose of him was made and implemented in short order. The decision to depose a ruling emperor was not made lightly, but was agreed upon not only by those nobles closest to the emperor himself, but also by a secret meeting of the Moot, which ordered Cleon's assassination. Porfiria was chosen by lot as Cleon's heir. This act was later used by Constantus to justify his ascension to emperor by the so-called Right of Assassination."

Cleon the Mad resolved disagreements within his cabinet by shooting vocal opponents, and it still took a year to get rid of him. Again, dark Imperium. A benign government would've arrested him according to the law the first time he did it. But in the Imperium the Emperor's will is law, so it was completely legal for Cleon to shoot those cabinet members. Yes, the Emperor can do anything he wants. He could shoot someone at lunch everyday if he wanted. In the Imperium, there is no right and wrong, there is only "that which Pharaoh loves and that which Pharaoh hates".

I think the Dark Imperium we are discovering in this thread is far more interesting than a benign good guy Imperium, and overflowing with adventure possibilities.

 

[actionman]

That one Empress was going to scrub an entire planet because they were annoying her with their politicking.

Which Empress? This is another indicator of a dark Imperium.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I lose track of what I post where, it is quicker to repost and edit this.

I was always interested in why the chose to call it a moot rather than parliament, senate, house of representatives etc.

It first crops up in the CT Emperor's List.

Jerome: Ascended the throne by right of moot election. Born 525, proclaimed emperor in 555, assassinated in 582.
Jaqueline I: Ascended the throne by right of moot election. Born 561, proclaimed empress in 582, assassinated in 606
Ramon I: Born 560, proclaimed emperor by right of moot election in 609, assassinated in 609

And that is it. No other mention in CT Library Data of this Moot.

The original version of the Empire was influenced by the Roman Empire - emperor, senate, dux (dukes), but over time resembled the British Empire instead - Emperor, tiers of nobility, a moot...

So what is a moot - it is an Anglo-Saxon word meaning meeting

In MT it was described as a meeting of the nobility - this never made sense to me as the distances are too great. It's role in the Emperor's list is vastly expanded, it is mentioned in some way for nearly every Emperor. MT Library Data provides a definition.

Then I had the brainwave, Cleon Industries became the Third Imperium. Cleon Industries shareholders can call themselves by whatever noble rank they like but the fact remains that as shareholders they get the final say on who leads the company. Their shareholder meeting is the Moot.

When Cleon converted Cleon Industries into the renewed Grand Empire of Stars the Moot was like a shareholders meeting.
As Cleon Industries board members were granted noble titles then a semblance of a "gathering of the nobility" was overlayed on the Moot. The Moot remained a meeting of the vested interests, the nobility in and around Sylea Capital and representatives of the megacorporations.
The vast majority of the citizens of the Imperium were unaware of the nature, composition, role, and power of the Moot.
From time to time is was necessary for the Moot to solve issues of succession, but usually after the fact. Oddly those elected to the position of Emperor by the Moot would often die by assassination...

Following Strephon's assassination the rumour was that the Moot would recognise Dulinor's claim by right of assassination. Lucan dissolved the Moot, showing that the Emperor was always preeminent over the Moot.

What Lucan did, after 1116 years, was revert Cleon Industries to a family (his) ownership and strip the shareholders of their shares and rights. The temporary suspension of the Moot for a year is mentioned, what is not mentioned that I can find is that the Moot returned after the hiatus. We know that the "shadow Moot" was instrumental in supporting Margaret, and yet ignored the "real" Strephon.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Which Empress? This is another indicator of a dark Imperium.

Margaret I
Details in Agent of the Imperium.

 

[Bense]

I don't see how that changes anything? The Emperor is an autocrat. The degree of his power is primarily his personal competence, as is the case with all autocrats. But what it is not is the rule of law. The fact that the Emperor doesn't want a civil war is not a legal limit on his power. There is no legal limit to his power. That one Empress was going to scrub an entire planet because they were annoying her with their politicking. She was stopped, but not by force of law. Rather, by being clubbed over the head and her orders countermanded by Imperial Edict.

It was, of course, more complicated than that.
Margaret could not merely say "I'm the Empress and I'm ordering that world scrubbed."
It wasn't just "annoying politicking", the Geonee were about to attempt effective secession through the establishment of an autonomous region. The threat Margaret was afraid of was that the other minor races and cultural groups of the Imperium would follow suit and the Imperium would be effectively dissolved. But even then she didn't feel she could just go to the public with this threat - she had concocted a cover story, an outbreak of plague, that would require scrubbing the Geonee homeworld.
And of course, Bland stopped her, with the help of her own bureaucracy. He did so by intimidating the Geonee, then exploiting how proxy votes worked in the Moot - they dissolve with the death of the Empress. No proxy system, no vote, and then with the help of the Imperial Bureaucracy he changed permanently how the proxy system worked so that the Geonee plan wouldn't work any longer.
So yes, there were limits to her power.

I'm just not convinced that there was ever a government in our history where "most of the nobles are honorable and genuinely concerned with the welfare of their subjects.". At least, not beyond their ability to fulfill some useful societal function. Does Strephon seeming to be a nice guy make the Imperium not a dystopia? No. Because the person that matters is the local subsector Duke. Or the Imperial Naval Lieutenant. Or whomever is wielding their fiat in your face at the moment, which is rarely the Emperor himself.

There are plenty of governments in history which had lengthy periods where the majority of the aristocrats running the country really did their best for their people, and plenty of examples of the opposite. When people are honorable and do their duty monarchies work great.

 

[MasterGwydion]

There are plenty of governments in history which had lengthy periods where the majority of the aristocrats running the country really did their best for their people, and plenty of examples of the opposite. When people are honorable and do their duty monarchies work great.

I am not aware of any. Also, what do you consider a lengthy period? 10 years? 50 years? 100 years? 500 years?

Remember, the victors are the ones who write the history books.

 

[actionman]

Margaret I
Details in Agent of the Imperium.

Excellent, thanks.

 

[actionman]

It was, of course, more complicated than that.
Margaret could not merely say "I'm the Empress and I'm ordering that world scrubbed."
It wasn't just "annoying politicking", the Geonee were about to attempt effective secession through the establishment of an autonomous region. The threat Margaret was afraid of was that the other minor races and cultural groups of the Imperium would follow suit and the Imperium would be effectively dissolved. But even then she didn't feel she could just go to the public with this threat - she had concocted a cover story, an outbreak of plague, that would require scrubbing the Geonee homeworld.
And of course, Bland stopped her, with the help of her own bureaucracy. He did so by intimidating the Geonee, then exploiting how proxy votes worked in the Moot - they dissolve with the death of the Empress. No proxy system, no vote, and then with the help of the Imperial Bureaucracy he changed permanently how the proxy system worked so that the Geonee plan wouldn't work any longer.
So yes, there were limits to her power.


There are plenty of governments in history which had lengthy periods where the majority of the aristocrats running the country really did their best for their people, and plenty of examples of the opposite. When people are honorable and do their duty monarchies work great.

So, according the AotI, Margaret I was going to convict the homeworld of a species to the exterminatus because they were going to attempt to form an autonomous zone.

That is dark.

So, Bland stopped her by doing all kinds of improbable things. There were no limits to her power, there was only the treason of Bland and members of the Imperial Bureaucracy.

What happened to Margaret? Did she die? Did she just say "Well, okay I guess," after this incident?

Edit: It seems to me that an Empress willing to destroy all life on one of her worlds would purge the Imperial Bureaucracy and staff it with ambitious people loyal to her and the Iridium Throne.

 

[Arkathan]

There are plenty of governments in history which had lengthy periods where the majority of the aristocrats running the country really did their best for their people, and plenty of examples of the opposite. When people are honorable and do their duty monarchies work great.

If you ask Mao, Stalin or Lenin, they would swear that they were numbered among that group who did their best for their people.
The mass murders of their own citizens was a feature, not a flaw...

 

[steelbrok]

When I was pondering ATUs/MTUs I had two main factions in the Solomani Movement, the Supremacists and Nationalists.
The former wanted to regain pre-eminence in the Imperium and were based around the Core but the Nationalists in the Rim just wanted to be out.

 

[Condottiere]

Speaking of Forty Kay, there's a theory the percentage of planets actually dealing with alien incursions is minuscule, the vast majority aren't affected.

So, management by exception.