Thoughts on 2e... Game favors fleets of smaller ships. Why?

[Hannibal]

I can tell you they don't - on an entertainment level, crits are a large part of the game. Put another way, if the game is changed as you suggest, it would no longer be CTA.

It would seem this thread has run head-first into the Matt Sprange Brick Wall. (tm)

(Really trying to like this game, but everytime I check into the forums, I find at least one situation like this that turns me off to supporting a small business that considers "listening to your customers" to be "dismissing their comments out of hand on the forums.")

 

[H]

I can tell you they don't - on an entertainment level, crits are a large part of the game. Put another way, if the game is changed as you suggest, it would no longer be CTA.

It would seem this thread has run head-first into the Matt Sprange Brick Wall. (tm)

(Really trying to like this game, but everytime I check into the forums, I find at least one situation like this that turns me off to supporting a small business that considers "listening to your customers" to be "dismissing their comments out of hand on the forums.")

ok then, I will agree that Matt can be pig headed and Stubborn (see, now i'll never get my mothership) but conversely, their have been insidences where player concern has seen ships changed and revised, examples are Armageddon saggi, re-written for an S+P article, S+P Trolligan, banned from mongoose tourneys, which i reckon is as good as admitting they cheesed it!
However, this issue has been raised time after time after time after time. . . in fact, burger and co showed that a big ship could beat a swarm (I think it was a bin'tack versus drazi). Now then, don't think I am being a fanboy, I've had more than my share of run in's with matt and the establishment, but i felt that maybe a bit of support for them was needed. . . I will say that he's wrong on the shadow fighter though ;-)

 

[Da Boss]

Hanibal - its really not that bad - its usually interesting on here and the only real problem is most people (inclduing myself) like the game so much they want to perfect it - but that our views of perfection don't always gel.........

Hiffano sums it up well - esp the Shadow fighter..... :lol:

 

[MongooseMatt]

ok then, I will agree that Matt can be pig headed and Stubborn (see, now i'll never get my mothership)

See how I stroke your Mothership. . .

 

[Da Boss]

given what it looks like - do you really want to say that on an open forum :shock:

 

[Burger]

(Really trying to like this game, but everytime I check into the forums, I find at least one situation like this that turns me off to supporting a small business that considers "listening to your customers" to be "dismissing their comments out of hand on the forums.")

Tip: don't visit the forums, or don't take what you read as gospel People like to whinge and whine on forums, about the tiniest detail. I do honestly believe everything I've said about swarms being way overpowered, but it wouldn't stop me playing... just if someone with a cheesy swarm wanted to play against my big ship, I'd say no thanks, or "OK you win next game".

See how I stroke your Mothership. . .

OMG need

 

[H]

ok then, I will agree that Matt can be pig headed and Stubborn (see, now i'll never get my mothership)

See how I stroke your Mothership. . .

I'm having bad bad thoughts, I NEED MIND BLEECH!!!

 

[noobdelux]

as im over here and not getting into the tournament deal, my problem is not that mutch of a 10 sagg thing against my few ships.. (still with me?) hmm well annyhow.. i still loose lol even if the fleets are so and so even in numbers and if somone takes that to an on off game.. tell them to get lost : P

 

[MongooseMatt]

(Really trying to like this game, but everytime I check into the forums, I find at least one situation like this that turns me off to supporting a small business that considers "listening to your customers" to be "dismissing their comments out of hand on the forums.")

Then I am very sorry, but you are missing the point of my posts.

All I am telling you is _why_ the game is as it is. _Why_ we made certain decisions.

Whether or not you agree with that is your business, and if you want to change the rules when you play in your own house or your own club then I won't be busting down the door to place everyone under arrest!

You also have to accept that I have a very different perspective from many people who post on these forums, in that I have listened to many, many players, each of whom have their own ideas on how a game 'should' be.

Take Stealth, for example. Every time that chestnut gets trotted out, the same set of proposals get raised and, if I explain why we haven't used them, it might seem like the door is just being closed and they are being dismissed out of hand.

The trouble is, they are _weren't_ dismissed. They were discussed and considered here in the office (and, likely, among the playtesters) a long time ago - perhaps as long as two or three years ago! There are solid reasons why we do not do X, Y or Z that, while may seem baffling to a single group (or several groups), are actually a core of the game. The point about critical hits raised in this thread is a good example, as it has become a strong staple of what CTA is - you see, when you guys all pile over to Swindon for a tournament, it is not to get you spending money, and it is not to induct you into the Mongoose doctrine.

It is because I want to see different people play and, more importantly, _how_ they play. It was very early on that I spotted the effect criticals have on players, and it is also why we have ported similar systems over to other games. Reactions in SST are another mechanic that struck a chord in people (and you can see them, in a very small way, in CTA with AF fire).

Now, however, I have completely digressed from the point.

Must be Friday.

 

[MongooseMatt]

just if someone with a cheesy swarm wanted to play against my big ship, I'd say no thanks, or "OK you win next game".

Should also be pointed out that there are non-cheesy swarms. . .

 

[No. 1 Bear]

The thing i find with everyone here is this:

Yes you can take a swarm based cheese fleet, a 9 saggi and a scout fleet or the other numerous cheesy fleet ideas.

Who here would actually do that? i know god damn sure that i wouldn't i think games are more fun when you win and loose but have to develop your tactical mind.

Furthermore crits are great when you score them, aren't they! And they really suck when you get them. However i think that its only fair that a fighter can kill a big ship. Anyone seen star wars? But it shouldn't be as easy as rolling a 6 then 2 more.

 

[Target]

althought there are crits like "ship totally destroyed" , what is a shame,

It is also more realistic for WWII (and, I think, for CTA, but I got overuled on that one ).

We still use this one as we always liked it but then we use the redundancy idea as well.

 

[Davesaint]

Ok, time for my .02 US Cents.(which equates to less than .01 english cents)

The problem with the swarm fleets is twofold, and there is an easy correction.

The first problem is that it is too cost effective not to by down on the PL chart.

The second problem is that when you buy down, you are gaining too much in the AD advantage, not to mention the redundency factor.

The fix I would suggest is to make it cheaper to buy up that to buy down on the PL Chart.

For example -

Same Level - 1 per ship/Wing
1 PL Higer - 2 per ship/Wing
2 PL Higher - 3 per ship/wing
3 PL Higher - 4 per ship/wing
4 PL Higher - 6 per ship/wing
5 PL Higherr - 8 per ship/wing
1 PL lower - 1 point buys - 2 ships/wing
2 PL lower - 1 point buys - 2 ships/wing
3 PL lower - 1 point buys - 4 ships/wing
4 PL lower - 1 point buys - 6 ships/wing
5 PL lower - 1 point buys - 8 ships/wing



Dave

 

[nekomata fuyu]

just if someone with a cheesy swarm wanted to play against my big ship, I'd say no thanks, or "OK you win next game".

Should also be pointed out that there are non-cheesy swarms. . .

Like... a swarm of Shadow fighters?

...

Sorry, just had to be said :lol:

 

[greenboy]

Ok, time for my .02 US Cents.(which equates to less than .01 english cents)

Dave

the english use pence not cents

 

[Davesaint]

Ok, time for my .02 US Cents.(which equates to less than .01 english cents)

Dave

the english use pence not cents

{Sarcasm on} Thanks for the correction. Oviously you found the important part of my post{/Sarcasm off}


Dave

 

[MustEatBrains]

Some things I´d like so say about all the discussions lately is this: The discussed topics and alleged problems are pretty minor when you think about it - the g´Quan could be better? Yeah, well, it´s still not bad. The Demos is tough as hell? The Vorchan is still freakingly good, the Demos is just that little bit better. Shadowfighters suck at most things? Admitted, but they are good at one thing, at which they excel.

Ok, not everything is perfect, especially how Shadows interact with enemy fighters could possibly be improved (low level Annihilation scenarios that can´t be won by Shadows if the enemy brings along fighters is the one example which came up recently).

But overall, the game as such is pretty awesome as it is; the improvements over the last edition are considerable (even though it involved a lot of change for some fleets), and the license rocks as well, of course. I said it before in another thread, the fact that the biggest discussion on the board atm is about one single fighter out of 20 fleets speaks books about how good the game really is.

Another thing is that everyone is entiteled his oppinion in the forum, even the guys from Mongoose themselves. Matt´s oppinion has admittedly a more direct influence on the game than that of most others, but that doesn´t change the fact that it is still an oppinion. Same goes for Bry, who every now and then let´s us know how he sees things "behind the lines", which is a cool thing. And I wouldn´t want to loose those insights from within Mongoose just because, whenever one of them shows his head around here, he get´s jumped at immediately...

Guess I´m sounding like a fanboy right now - am I happy with everything that´s going on? No. Shadows should be better at handling fighters IMO; the G´Quan really should rock; and the fact that I can´t seem to get B5 products for my online store over my distributor in germany at the moment is seriously starting to piss me off.

But there have been so many "ship X is broken/ not worth taking for this and that reason, fleet Y is 17% less effective at Raid level than it was in the last edition, we have to have feature Z in the game or it will forever be a terrible game" comments since the edition was released that I´m seriously thinking "come on guys, it´s the best edition this game has ever seen, so try to enjoy it for a change".

Oh, btw: the problem of cheesy swarms is a problem with the players, not the game. Just because the game theoretically allows such a thing doesn´t mean you have to play it that way. On the other hand, no matter how good the rules are, there will always be some Jerks who try to find the most effective, most un-fun army/fleet/whatever which the rules allow. It is just impossible to close all gaps in a game, but with a little thought players can make sure that these risks are being reduced as much as possible within their given group (likle the simple but effective idea of playing games at 1 Armageddon point instead of the usual 5 Raid).

And while I´m at it: My son is toothing at the moment, and I haven´t really slept in a while - that´s of no consequence to anyone out there, but I sure fell better now that I´ve told it. :wink:

 

[Davesaint]

Oh, btw: the problem of cheesy swarms is a problem with the players, not the game. Just because the game theoretically allows such a thing doesn´t mean you have to play it that way. On the other hand, no matter how good the rules are, there will always be some Jerks who try to find the most effective, most un-fun army/fleet/whatever which the rules allow. It is just impossible to close all gaps in a game, but with a little thought players can make sure that these risks are being reduced as much as possible within their given group (likle the simple but effective idea of playing games at 1 Armageddon point instead of the usual 5 Raid).

I get really frustrated with this statement. Calling people who choose the swarm fleet tactic over the big ship tactic a Jerk and stating that you just shouldn't play with them is a horrible attitude to have and would likely go about eliminating B5 ACTA as a game. To be honest, having people field swarm fleets actually helps Mongoose's profitability as long as the person fielding it uses miniatures instead of counters. Thus angering these people directly effects the bottom line of the company you praise for the game.

The other thing that you brought up is people who play un-fun armies. Should we ban anyone who plays Minbari? How about banning people who only play ships with stealth. How about Dodge. Should we ban people who play the whitestar fleet? I know that people didn't have fun playing against the WS fleet in the SFOS version.

Do you kick out someone from playing in a 1 Armageddon level fight that brings 4 Whitestars and 4 Whitestar 2's to the table? It's a legal fleet by the rules.

The problem with the swarm fleet is due to the PL breakdown chart. Heck, go back to the goofy chart from SFOS and most of the swarm fleets will go away. Get rid of the 2 for 1 patrol hulls(make them count as 1 for 1 patrol hulls) and the swarm fleets will go away. These are pretty basic changes that can be done fairly easily and will make ACTA a better game.


Dave

 

[zulu01]

First off, thanks for all the replies. I didn't really expect to touch-off such a passionate response!

I think some of you - Matt included - missed the point of my original post. I wasn't arguing that taking swarm fleets was a cheesy tactic. Frankly, I think the idea of a mass of PT boats taking on the Imperial Japanese Navy is really cool - sometimes, crazy matchups will happen and it is interesting to have a game system with such a wide variety of options.

The question I was asking was,” Why did the designers build the game to DISCOURAGE taking larger ships?”

A battleship should be a BATTLESHIP, not half-again a cruiser. Matt, designing the game so that two smaller ships are slightly better than one larger one is the essence of the question. Why would you do this?

A big ship’s gun should be REALLY scary. Longer range, more punch. A Battleship should not be that afraid of four destroyers - one hit from its salvoes should be enough to sink a DD (blow it up) before the escort’s guns ever come into range.

But in CTA, I'd take four demos versus any battle level ship in the game (and against even some race's war level ships!).

The previous posters are correct - four skirmish ships have built-in redundancy against critical hits. They also have more firepower, more total crew and hits, and in many cases they will end up coming with more fighters!

Against Minbari, you'd be stupid to take one big ship - four skirmish ships give you four stealth rolls!

And now, with the beam changes, big ships are MORE vulnerable than before, while smaller ships are less.

Matt, I love your game. I love it that you participate in these forums. And I love the variety, and excitement that all the huge range of miniatures provides.

Love it... yes. Understand the big ship nerfing... No.

 

[MustEatBrains]

Oh, btw: the problem of cheesy swarms is a problem with the players, not the game. Just because the game theoretically allows such a thing doesn´t mean you have to play it that way. On the other hand, no matter how good the rules are, there will always be some Jerks who try to find the most effective, most un-fun army/fleet/whatever which the rules allow. It is just impossible to close all gaps in a game, but with a little thought players can make sure that these risks are being reduced as much as possible within their given group (likle the simple but effective idea of playing games at 1 Armageddon point instead of the usual 5 Raid).

I get really frustrated with this statement. Calling people who choose the swarm fleet tactic over the big ship tactic a Jerk and stating that you just shouldn't play with them is a horrible attitude to have and would likely go about eliminating B5 ACTA as a game. To be honest, having people field swarm fleets actually helps Mongoose's profitability as long as the person fielding it uses miniatures instead of counters. Thus angering these people directly effects the bottom line of the company you praise for the game.

The other thing that you brought up is people who play un-fun armies. Should we ban anyone who plays Minbari? How about banning people who only play ships with stealth. How about Dodge. Should we ban people who play the whitestar fleet? I know that people didn't have fun playing against the WS fleet in the SFOS version.

Do you kick out someone from playing in a 1 Armageddon level fight that brings 4 Whitestars and 4 Whitestar 2's to the table? It's a legal fleet by the rules.

The problem with the swarm fleet is due to the PL breakdown chart. Heck, go back to the goofy chart from SFOS and most of the swarm fleets will go away. Get rid of the 2 for 1 patrol hulls(make them count as 1 for 1 patrol hulls) and the swarm fleets will go away. These are pretty basic changes that can be done fairly easily and will make ACTA a better game.


Dave

Ok, I should have explained some things in more detail:

First, I´m not talking about all swarm fleets - I´m talking about players who try to create the most unbeatable swarm fleet the rules allow, just for the sake of beating their opponents no matter the cost. The same goes for "un-fun" fleets - not any specific fleet (I love the Minbari, and White Star fleets are cool - but again, when put together to place winning over having fun, any fleet can suck. Maybe it also has a lot to do with the attitude of the respective player, facing a given fleet might be fun against one player, while the same fleet might be annoying when played by another. All very subjective, I guess...).

Like I said, things can still be improved, and yes I´d prefer the SFOS split up as well. But I´m also saying that you can´t make Mongoose responsible for the fact that there will always be some "insertfittingdescriptionforguysiwouldntwanttoplayagainstbecauseoftheirattitude" exploiting the rules. A lot of the complains with the swarm fleets were about that kind of cheesy selection.


So, I was neither attacking nor (hopefully) angering anyone directly. To be honest, those players who should really take a few moments and think about what I said wouldn´t think they´re meant anyway. Swarm fleets can be fun (and I never actually said anything about swarms at all, I was specifically talking about cheese). So, no need to get yourself frustrated really, the mere fact that you showed this kind of passionate reaction shows that it´s unlikely that you are one of those people I was talking about!