Those pesky Minbari

[homerun]

Good question. :lol: its nice to have Mr. Sprange(this is to different you from him) confirm it. Thanks.

yes and if the mimbos were abel to give the shadows a run 1000 years ago. then i think it is strange that they are not better at it 1000 years later.

do i really have one question to mongoose

is it a a goal for mongoose to make a balanced fleet list for all races ?

so that i and a buddy can decide that we want to play a 5 point war lvl game in a week were he play minbos and i play EA

were we can use that week to plan what fleet we want to use and then meet up and play a heads on game with no fancy stuff and we will both have a fair chance ? based mostly on how we piced ouer fleets and what tactiks we use?

and yeah i know ther wil be some lucke involved ther allways is

or on the oter hand is it a goal to make the power lvl off each fleet close to what they are in the series ? (or at least close to the impression we get off the power lvls in the series)

or do you have a totaly diffrent idea for this game ?

guess that was sligthly more then one question do i woude really like to know what is mongoose plan, it woude make it easyer to know what to expekt and to know how muche i want to use on this game

 

[B5freak]

Just read the article and nothing too surprising. Pretty much everthing we've talked about here. I'm going to continue playing and posting game reports, but I've decided to sit out this arguement for a while and see what others come up with as they play.

As a test, I've given our local store's most broken power gamer my copy of the rules and asked him to defeat Minbari with EA. Who knows, maybe I just suck as an EA admiral....... :roll:

 

[Garibaldi]

Now, now...don't be too hard on yourself. I've seen you play (and been beaten by you lots!). You are a very good admiral. EA just has some limitations against Stealth. No fault of yours!

 

[Dywnarc]

I agree. I will sit this argument out and playtest a ton the next few weeks.

I read the S & P article. I feel it was a well written piece of work. An excellent refference guide for newer players dealing with the Minbari. This is important cause its the new players facing Minbarit hat are the ones that think the game sucks cause they can;t beat them.

Having said that, I didn;t really see anything new that "solves" any issues.

The oen comment I would like to make though is the comment that Minbari players tend to keep they ships close together.

I wonder how that irrational play culture developed.

I find I SPREAD out my Minbari ships on deployment, like WAY out from each other. I guess this can be considered a contuination on my thread that event hough good tactics can over come Minbari, Minbari players can also use good tatics to limit the effectivness of them.

I don't feel like writting too much now, so i will just explain why it hink the Minbari players that deploy cloe together are high.

1) Ships being close together makes them more vunrable from damage from randomly shifting jump gates forming.

2) Ships being close togtehr have a greatter struggle RESPONDING to ships coming out of hyperspace.

3) Enemy scouts have less choise on who to lower stleath on. If the Minbari ships are close together then the Scout can choice which one is the focus. If the ships are sapced apart the scouts must commit to which ones to keep in range

4) It has been stated that Minbari ships sapced apart cam be ganged up on peice meal. I could see this being a problem if the Minbari insists on a few big ships, but as i take lots of medium ships, I find have have lots of responce options as the enemy trys to swarm a ship. The swamred ship is the scrafical lamb as the other Minbari ships sweep into the less heavy arcs of the enemy. True this creates fire splitting oputrunities.. but on a normal sized board its hard to limit that anyways, and you can often use the longer range of the Minbari weapons so that most medium and short range weapons are no in range.

Anyways, I am not firmly in the "Minbari broken" camp.. I am still a tester and observer.. but I still stand undeafted in my gaming group with the Minbari. Had some close calls, very close calls, but still have not been beaten.

I must further commend Moongoose for payign attention to the players on this issue and being involved, its keeping my hopes up for balanced solutions.

 

[Dywnarc]

and another reaon for spreading ut your Minbari fleet.

If you fleet is close together a swarm of fighters can get among your ships and start scanning.. and they get to pick which ship is best to bring into line. But when you fleet is spaced apart, the enemy has to commit where the fighters are going, and you can often see how that is going and decide how to respond.

A Minbari fleet spread out gives less options to oppents for targeting and the Minabri ships have enough speed and long range weapons to rapidly respond to oppenents actions.

Please note these applies to my tatics which are not sharlin happy. I load up on the raid level ships.

I would also like to pont out that the strongest point mentioned in the aricle is that of priority level. I have all along being saying the Minbari are balanced for chamapings cause of there struggles at confilts lowewr then raid.

 

[homerun]

I would like to hear more of your tactics on the raid level. I am guessing you take a combination of things like the Ashinta, tigara, teshlan and torotha. I always thought the mixture of these weapons and speed could be used to good effect.

Of course there are weaknesses but definitely it has strengths. If your opponents are reasonably spread in reasonable chunks rather than groups then it would have some trouble since they would hunt in packs. I see what you mean. However some typical advantages are not there like outranging. At 20 inches you could work out getting a range advantage with certain ships.

However I commend you that fleet takes skill and is hard to beat when used right. It has weaknesses which are different than some of what the article is citing but are sitll out there. Looking forward to hear more of what you use.

I also think that interceptors hurt because things like missiles or rail gusn can really hurt you should they get the chance.

I'll continue play testing as well and try mainly raid level encounters as well. thanks.

 

[Matt]

Good question. its nice to have Mr. Sprange(this is to different you from him) confirm it. Thanks.

yeah i somtimes think maybe i shud have taken anoter name, cant do that know do case then i woude lose my post count

 

[Obsidian]

As for other recent posts, good call on boarding Minbari - generally, they only have average Troop scores and Stealth don't help against a bunch of angry marines. . .

Well what do you know. My "crazy" idea of using boarding parties turns out to be a good idea after all. Now I wonder, besides Mr. Sprange has anyone tried this tactic? I keep failing to get a game going where I can try this out.

Just read the article and nothing too surprising. Pretty much everthing we've talked about here.

In a way, I'm glad to hear that. Back when this thread was started and most everyone was moaning that the Minbari were impossible to beat I aked people to stop complaining and start thinking. After all these pages we've managed to compile a list of tactics that are very close to what the designer himself would use. It just shows that with the right focus, this community can produce some spectacular work.

 

[homerun]

Naah, if he wanted to have his forum name Matt he could have done it. I just find it strange calling him msprange. I suppose I could have said Mathew but I wanted to be clear about who I meant. No need to change screen names, screen names can be anything thats what fun about it. My name isn't really homerun you know. :lol:

Good question. its nice to have Mr. Sprange(this is to different you from him) confirm it. Thanks.

yeah i somtimes think maybe i shud have taken anoter name, cant do that know do case then i woude lose my post count

 

[Matt]

My name isn't really homerun you know.

:shock: :shock: :shock:


what you say ?

 

[Silvereye]

Played an EA Vs Minabri game last Friday, over a 6'x4' table. It was also my first Battle level game of SFOS. And I have not read the new S&P yet.

Fleets (all crew quality 4 for ease of play)
Minbari: 1x Sharlin, 2x Tinashi, 2x Teshlan.
EA: 3x Omega [1x'Fury, 3x t-bolt], 2x Nova [4x'fury], 1x Delphi, 2x Artemis.
The Scout re-roll allowed the EA to force the Minbari to set up first and the EA won the initiative on two occasions. I will post the full battle report shortly (once I have typed it up) on that thread.

What I drew from the game was Beams are scary. The Sharlin and 1 of the Omega's score 13 hits each in one firing, but it is the Precise and Double damage traits that hit home the hardest. The Delphi is very good. The unlimited Scout range makes it a nice pick n' choose your target for the turn, rather then having to position it carefully. The larger EA ships are good at soaking up damage for a time, it took the Sharlin and a Teshlan a couple of turns to destroy an Omega, but one volley from the Sharlin to annihilate a Nova (6-6 crit helped) (to be fair with the same hit roll from an Omega or Primus the Nova would have been pretty much toast). The damage does slowly come back and haunt the Minbari, especially with the odd critical in the mix. Scanners to full can be very usefull and it is not always a death sentence for the flights involved as there is usually not enough AD to split around to guarantee killing everything. A fleet carrier for replenish and repair would help the use of this tactic (would it also help with breeching pods survival to the target?) - though you would potentially be sacrificing a lot of heavy weapons to do so. Stealth rolls were about average, and the Scout lock and Scanners to Full worked about 50% of the time.

The game ended with an engine criticalled (speed 0) Delphi [I forgot that a Nial's weaponry can be intercepted...], an undamaged Omega and a few T-Bolts and a Starfury against two half-damaged Teshlans and 2 Nial's. The game was probably heading for a draw when it ended, though the EA was probably ahead at the time due to the undamaged Omega still on the table.

 

[B5freak]

Andy,

Did the Minbari player use Concentrate Firepower! much? I'm also finding that the Hull 6 is a big factor.

 

[homerun]

I am going to give boarding a try especially the raid class ships with low troop counts. Combined with the support auxillary craft ideas it can provide a lot of dilemma. If Raid class minbari players really split up their forces then that makes it much harder to repel an assault. Also is fighter counts will tend to be low without a morshin, 1 nial flight per raid point. WIth EA you could outnumber them 2 to 1 or more.

One thing is that if you look Minbari and Centauri are very similar and both have to use similar tactics to maximize advantage. it may seem like the centauri player is just sitting there shooting but he is usually doing other things with other ships. While 3 primuses are fine and dandy those experienced with centauri know a combination approach is best.

I see the minbari as similar they are for one thing pretty close in fragility except in stealth (as bad as the original centauri was in ACTA). I believe the small ship idea is basically partnering ashintas with some teshlan for long range power and tigaras for short range punch was always a good idea. Thats what i would do, although if i could I would throw in tinashis.

However there are problems especially against EA. Their ships tend to be prickly and if spaced right will have fields of fire and ranges that can dominate his own end of space. He'll just wait for you and move judiciously straight minimize range advantages. Teshlan's have a NL but its shorter ranged, they have to come to you not really the other way around. Teshlans can really hurt things with hull 4 but against Novas its survivable for awhile, even Olympuses will survive (this I have tried). Its different and you need to rework things but if you look at it basically forces you to take what i have always thought was good, a balanced missile boat fleet which have good arcs long range and can support each other. Against Teshlans you don't really need a Delphi (although its still viable since you have good stealth as well).

In short we all know the raid fleet is scary but as described it takes a lot of skill and seems like a challenging fleet to play and play against. however I stand by the minbari's major weakness lack of interceptors and lack of Hull6 to keep that in check. Stealth is tough but I've seen what an APollo can do on a good spread and even with Olympuses. Missile boat fleets will on good rolls tear minbari ships a new one on any level and it actually gets worst as said before when you get to lower levels. The longer you survive the worst off the Minbari are, maybe thats why they use so much fast strike tactics in the show and games. Minbari from I see it are all about finesse and moving and utilizing their powerful weapons. If it descends into a war of attrition it usually favors the other side unless you are lucky.

Splitting up will help in boarding tactics, bunching up has its disadvantages . Move counter move thats what its all about. (I am not commenting ont he overall experience of players just commenting on the raid level ships).

When i play centauri I spread them wide but also keep loose groups to minimize E-mines and other similar attacks (jump gates, ship explosions). Creating a good small hunting pack loosely grouped pays dividends. this what I see happening when a minbari player does not go in hunting packs. Minbari are very much like centauri with stealth except they are even more fragile and have deadlier beam weapons.

As for other recent posts, good call on boarding Minbari - generally, they only have average Troop scores and Stealth don't help against a bunch of angry marines. . .

Well what do you know. My "crazy" idea of using boarding parties turns out to be a good idea after all. Now I wonder, besides Mr. Sprange has anyone tried this tactic? I keep failing to get a game going where I can try this out.

Just read the article and nothing too surprising. Pretty much everthing we've talked about here.

In a way, I'm glad to hear that. Back when this thread was started and most everyone was moaning that the Minbari were impossible to beat I aked people to stop complaining and start thinking. After all these pages we've managed to compile a list of tactics that are very close to what the designer himself would use. It just shows that with the right focus, this community can produce some spectacular work.

 

[homerun]

Agreed I am finding that too. Hull6 makes a tremendous difference on Nls. You really don't want them getting on a roll. I've seen 2 AD do 6 hits or more off hull 4. With hull6 and hull5 the difference is quite large, the more hits you let them have the more criticals (I've gotten 4 crits out of 6 hits against me before ouch). Concentrate all fire intensifies this a lot. Finding opportune ways ot use concentrate all fire like Reduced stealth tinashis with an Apollo at long range is part of the strategy. normally because you are trying to beat stealth and can't concentrate all fire but there are times that you can. If you are using missiles from long range you might as well do it.

I acutally think Nova is a good ship versus minbari. It won't last long versus a lot of concentrated fire but it will last longer than a Hyperion and although slow can be helped by distracting you enemy with bigger ships. The 6,6 critical mus thave played a factor since my Novas can survive a great pounding. A Warlock once crippled a Shadow Omega on Turn 3 with a 6,6 critcal (not a big one either just 8 points) on a triple damage weapon ouch. So its make a big difference the same hit would have probably atomized an Nova in one turn. ( all the other direct hits plus less hull.)
I'll post more on the shadow omega versus warlock by the way.

I am wondering how well chronos would do against raid level minbari ships I think against 10 NL lasers its not quite enough but against smaller firepower it could become a very tough opponent.

Andy,

Did the Minbari player use Concentrate Firepower! much? I'm also finding that the Hull 6 is a big factor.

 

[B5freak]

homerun,

I'll be interested to see what the survival rate on your breaching pods is like. Given their slow speed and relatively weak dodge, I'd imagine any kind of concentrated fusion cannon fire will pretty much wipe them out before they can get anywhere close. The Minbari player wouldn't need to intercept with his fighters in that case, so putting EA fighters in a support role for the pods wouldn't really do you any good.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I am wondering how well chronos would do against raid level minbari ships I think against 10 NL lasers its not quite enough but against smaller firepower it could become a very tough opponent.

For what it is worth, I have had fair luck with the Chronos against Minbari. . .

 

[Obsidian]

Given their slow speed and relatively weak dodge, I'd imagine any kind of concentrated fusion cannon fire will pretty much wipe them out before they can get anywhere close.

But that's the whole point of having them charge in with the fighters. The Minbari player has to make a tactical decision. Shoot down the breaching pods or the fighters performing Scanners to Full.

 

[B5freak]

Unless you buy extra breaching pods (i.e. don't just replace fighters with bp's) I don't see it as that big of a choice. Either way I have the same amount of Aux Craft coming at me, only with bp's in the mix they're coming in a lot slower and some are easier to kill.

 

[homerun]

Its something I'd at least like to try. I think for centauri it makes sense since they are unless purposeful built that way not a fighter heavy race. They don't have a lot of troops. it might be something more for Narn or Drazi than earthforce.

I think the only way it will work really well is to take breachingpods now some people already do this to take fighters and the optional pairing allow you to grab a patrol point so who knows. The only ships it would kind of work is with the Nova.

I also think if you do it it normally would be against a raid class set. Sharlins are too tough to take down like this. You might get lucky but its also likely you will need at last even number of troops to really do anything and you will need probably 2 more pods in addition to make up for a lost pod to fire. So on a teshlan thats like 5 pods for their 3 troops. Its definitely a risk. I'll let you know how it goes, it will probably work against centauri especially with Narn, it looks like something the NArn should do however.

Still want to try it. The trouble is proving its viable. I think most minbari players will try to blow them away but won't be distracted too much if one or two get in he will be pretty sure that it won't maul his ship unless real unlucky. It does seem like it maybe worth while if you can get 2 or more troops on their you could wipe out a lot of crew quickly. and possibly get a critical hit

If I was a breaching pod I rather just board with what I can and then just push a crate of bombs into the ship and fly off. but thats just me

However if it can be proven that 3 can be consistently placed on say a teshlan and do some damage then it could sufficiently distract things so that the minbari can't shoot at a ship. As for being minor annoyances I ussually run my fighters back until my big ships move in to keep minbari from wailing away with fusion cannons. I lump them in big clusters usually in support. And play cat and mouse with Nials often trying to get them close (I can't shoot at your flag ship but hey look there are nials might as well try) Love the 5 in and 3 in antifighter. you can basically do this with breaching pods alhtough you will lose some. The point is it worth it to have a set of fusion cannons in a forward arc occupied for the price of a fighter.

Not super easy to kill though, EA pods are reasonably tough being hull6 even fusion cannons will hit them 1/3rd of the time and they will dodge it 1/3 of the time so they do have a chance of getting in there. The probablem is it will take 3 rounds to get there without help, thats where the question ar they worth it comes from. Ranges has a lot to do with your opponent if your enemy moves forward then I would commit them then in essentally two runs you could be in range. If he does something like all stop he may play into your hands we'll have to see. But first i think I'll have to be proven it can be done on minbari because their ships aren't exactly easy to board but at least it beats stealth. But really this is more for raid ships.

One other thing the most obvious fleet in a 5 point raid battle is to use some Novas at least 3 that way in a normal 5 point raid battle the opponent would have only 5 nials, to 12 auxillary craft. You could take 5 pods and 7 fighters. I'll see if somehting like this could work. Maybe sagitariuses or other similar ships in support. I still like the Olympus.

homerun,

I'll be interested to see what the survival rate on your breaching pods is like. Given their slow speed and relatively weak dodge, I'd imagine any kind of concentrated fusion cannon fire will pretty much wipe them out before they can get anywhere close. The Minbari player wouldn't need to intercept with his fighters in that case, so putting EA fighters in a support role for the pods wouldn't really do you any good.

 

[Dywnarc]

SO some have been asking what I like for 5 pt raid Minbari. I am posting this for those that asked. I am well aware that Minbari fleet and tactic ideals are not nessary here! Ont he other hand for those (like me) still looking for ways to even the odds it may help to see whats out there.

Well for starters I woudl NOT in a 5 pt raid take a sharlin, in fact I would not take any battle level ship even. (Though I have played arround with Morshins with soem success)

So for starters I take a Ashinta for one point.

Then 2 Teshlans
1 Tigara

Then the last point becomes a question. So far I have been filling out with 2 Torothas. Even though I am still ussaly outneumbered by my oppenets I find the 2 for one here does help in the Initvie a bit. I ussaly expect these to die but they draw a resonable amount of fire as I rush them towards somthing of managable size.

I have not tired it but I think I am likley better served with the last pint being a Leshath. Handy agaist other Minbari and scouts and helping out the firepower of other ships. With stealth 5 its pretty survivable.

K why i like this fleet.

As I said before I like to have a spread deployment and react.

The Ashinta's role is to take the center, he is like a point man on the power play. (Hockey talk, I am Canadian) He starts out using his long range guns to pick on ships, manilt focusing on small stuff. I like to even up the intivie sink ASAP, plus players like to put there small ships that are damaged close to you so if they blow they damage you. So This giuy tries to take out a scrhich ship or two at long range.

During the mid game stays in a central postion where his well rouned fire power can help out in many directtion.

I so tend to lose this guy often as he draws a lot of attention and is ussally the first in close range, but he does is job in the process.

Also worth noting is that being twin linked allows you to risk a thin spread for taking out fighters if they are present in numbers.

The Two Teslans opperate in loose formation on one of the flanks, they try to skirt the edges of the battle maintaining range picking on whoever tryes to close with them. I keep them spaced apart as much as possibel well maintaining there arcs and distance to share targets.

I find these guys survive most games and also get the most kills. If I had to serve in my own fleet, I woudl want to be one on of these wingers.

The Tigara is both my "powerforward" and" enforcer" I like him over a extra Teshlan cause of the insane number of double damage goodness at short range.

I have this guy serve a few different roles. While the first three ships do the same job every game, I have a few options for the Tigara. I will either hold him back for a turn, see who is moving up on my beloved ashninta and rush up to punish them (Enforcer role)

On the other hand, If the enemy has a ship that I see being a major problem, this guy guns right for him to bring him down, no matter how much bigger it is! I make a point of 2nd turn kills on Dag'Kar's ! If the hoser oppent has a battle level ship arround, I will rush the Tigara at it while softenign up from long range with the Ashanti. I have uet to face a war ship in a raid game, but not many battle level ships can take a softening by Ashinta followed by a Tigara rush. SOmetimes the Tigara dies in this rush, but he always seams to get his shots off first and then blows up close tot he enemy! Not to mention if the ship was a battle level heavy like a narn heavy cruiser, I am generally setting up for a turn three hit from the brothers on the flank!


Now for that last point. As I said I have been running Torgoths for little effect. They ussly die early and I forgot what they even did by the end of the game. If I can just trade them one for one with other scrimish ships I am happy. I have run them the opposite flank of there big brothers as a distraction.. perhaps the ealr yfire they draw is what has keep the Teslans alive so many games. I have rushed them up with the Tigara, but they risk blowing up early and hurting him... thats why I am leanign towards the scout. He has as much well rounded fire as the ashinta and with even more dice int he forward arc! But not being twon linked means he is no replacement for the ashinta's role.

If we presume this is a toruney list and should be able to take all comers, I would have to say that the scout is liley the better well rounded choice.

Bear in mind that the last point could easly be taken by an extra Ashinta/Tigara or Teslan, but I like a little variety and the roles of the other ships are already very clear.