Those pesky Minbari

[MongooseMatt]

True, but under the PL system, three Hyperions should have a fighting chance against a Sharlin, and I'm not convinced that they do.

No, no, no - or, at least, not necessarily.

The PL system does not (cannot? sometimes) work on direct comparisons of ship classes. Ships in the same PL band are not as good as each other in all areas - and this is a very important distinction to note as compared to a 'straight' points system.

I'll give an extreme example to highlight what I mean.

Take (most) scout vessels. Generally speaking, they are one PL higher than they should be if you consider their combat potential alone. However, the PL lists assume two things for these ships;

1. They will not be used to go toe-to-toe with warships and wil instead be used in missions where their abilities come to the fore. Think blockade running combined with their Stealth.

2. They will be used as a _component_ in a fleet, where they act as a force multiplier.

One on one, scout ships get smashed every time. Used as above and they suddenly become worth their PL.

CTA is primarily a fleet game. It _can_ work as a ship duelling system but you have to be very careful about the ship you take. A Hyperion can be a good ship in a Raid level duel. A Lesthath probably isn't.

Now, to go back to your Hyperions, this ship is a good 'all-rounder'. What you might need agaionst a Sharlin is something a bit more specialised. In fact, to take it further, one of the Sharlin's abilities is to driectly target one of the Hyperion's weaknesses (its low damage score).

There are always things, as a games designer, that you want to tweak further with the systems you write. However, the PL system and, more importantly, where the ships lie in that system, is not one of them - for me, at least. Players have to sit down and figure out what their fleet gives them and what the enemy fleet has to counter that. And I _like_ that. You can't just pick up three Raid ships (or whatever) and go for it. You have to think.

As for other recent posts, good call on boarding Minbari - generally, they only have average Troop scores and Stealth don't help against a bunch of angry marines. . .

 

[Target]

I still think the Chronos needs a missle rack to complete it.
Hyperion and Omega Laser weapons need to be the same front on the aft.
Omega needs a few damage points and the same with the Oracle.
Delphi needs some more weapons as a Corvan almost has more which 2 PL below.
What is the point of Omega PD?
The increase in dice is a laugh compared to what it has lost.
It needs more range or something.
If this happens maybe us Centauri might have challenge :lol:.

 

[Lagavulin]

Part of me is coming to the conclusion that at least some of the problems that people have identified with overpowered Minabari is in reality linked to under powered EA ships. Minbari seem reasonable vs Centauri, not tried them vs other yet, next will probably be against ISA, Narn, or very mixed league fleet given my regular opponents ships. I have played and seen all these played and would imagine the ISA and Narn will give the Minbari a decent game, league might struggle but who knows what sort of fleet composition the players can come up with.

 

[Xorrandor]

Sorry, but I just don't buy your interpretation of the PL system. The EA never fought in a war before 2255? Because they don't have any War-level choices with in service dates before then. (And boy, don't tell the Dilgar or Minbari.) The Drazi have never fought a war, ever? Not even against the Dilgar? Guess they sat that one out with the Vree...

jeez, its pretty simple. things do change. ships lists change, and hte ability to field a fleet changes. If your using the current fleet lists and doing something from before the minbari war, then your going to have novas and the like in the EA fleet. and a war level game will see that you can get aot of them. Or the Drazi as a race would be assumed to have alot of ships and prefer to field large fleets of many ships when necesssary instead of building a huge ship.

Instead of the rather riduclous effect of every race having ships of every class all balanced against one another. Bland boredom is what htis creates. Hey we need a new module with light fast dreadnoughts this time instead of fast light dreadnoughts we did last time.

Hey, I'm not arguing that every race has to have ships at every priority level, or that all ships at each priority level have to look the same across all races. I just want a 5pt War level game to be about even, whether its between EA and Drazi or Minbari and Narn. (And to be honest, if Minbari are unbalanced against EA or Abbai, I'm not as worried: Minbari basically ignore Interceptors, which are a major component of both EA and Abbai fleets.)

the Sharlin should be a bear. the show makes it very clear that most of hte EA ships dont have a great chance against them. the shadow destroyers, or the warlocks hey feel free to give these a better chance. but an Omega, get real its babylon 5 and that means you going to need alot of luck to even come out alive.

And, lo and behold, an Omega doesn't really stand a chance against a Sharlin in this game. But that's because a Sharlin is of a higher priority level, and would therefore be expected to womp on the Omega; you don't need to add cheese-weaselness to enforce the results we see on-screen.

again i repeat the best way to provide balance for tournament players is to create tournament fleets. This also keeps the minmaxing fleet designers from breaking the tournament scene. it allows people to have an idea of what they will face, and brings far more balance than can ever be achieved by allowing the tournament players to design and bring thier own fleets.

If you don't understand tournaments, just say so. Fleet design is half the point. Now, playing scenarios is fun, and would probably satisfy non-tournament tournament players like me (who use fleet design as a cheap scenario setup system rather than intending to play in tournaments) for a while. But I like to design my own fleets too, and would like to be able to play against (or as) Minbari at some point without having to make up my own balancing system.

 

[Tal Hawkins]

the Sharlin should be a bear. the show makes it very clear that most of hte EA ships dont have a great chance against them. the shadow destroyers, or the warlocks hey feel free to give these a better chance. but an Omega, get real its babylon 5 and that means you going to need alot of luck to even come out alive.

And, lo and behold, an Omega doesn't really stand a chance against a Sharlin in this game. But that's because a Sharlin is of a higher priority level, and would therefore be expected to womp on the Omega; you don't need to add cheese-weaselness to enforce the results we see on-screen.

At no point in the show are we ever given any evidence that a Sharlin would defeat an Omega Destroyer. The two ships only encounter each other once and in that instance the Omega had a dozen good reasons (including nto starting an intergalactic war with the Minbari) to retreat that had NOTHING to do with the captains of the Omega's fearing that they would lose.

So we cannot use the show as a basis for determining how Sharlins and Omegas should compare.

 

[Locutus9956]

You dont need to actually see the ships fight to get an impression of how they would compare to each other. No you cant tell EXACTLY, but:

A) The Minbari are still about 800 years ahead of the EA technologically, I dont care how much effort the EA put into research since the war its been about 10 years and you cannot make up an 800 year tech gap just like that.

B) Earth are easily the youngest of the major powers. They have made up some ground by buying weaposn from the Narns (the laser cannons mainly) but this still leaves them with at best equal ships to the Narns, which are signifigantly less advanced than the Centauri and MILES behind the Minbari.

C) WHITESTARS go up against Omegas later and win. Hell they go up against SHADOW Omegas and win. And the whitestar despite its advanced Vorlon tech is a MUCH smaller and less heavily armed ship than a Sharlin.

D) The Minbari (with help from the other first ones but mostly on their own) WON THE LAST SHADOW WAR. They have since had 1000 years to advance even further. Along comes the best ship mankind has to offer. Oooh scary. (I should point out that alot of Minbari technology (and their society for that matter) was basically engineered by the Vorlons to create an 'anti shadow' weapon for the previous war so they did admittedly 'cheat' to get so advanced but that doesnt change the fact that they ARE that advanced )

Its called extrapolation. You can estimate how things compare from general information without being handed a concrete example. Im pretty sure noone has ever tested what would happen if you put say the HMS Victory (Nelsons flagship from the battle of Trafalgar) vs the Bismark (the colossal Nazi battleship from WW2) but it doesnt take a genius to work out what would happen there..... and thats only about 200 year tech gap incidentally.....

 

[Lagavulin]

As far as I can tell tell general feel of the series is that a Sharlin would beat any single EA ship - we never see a Sharlin/Omega fight but the impression I got was that such a fight would only go one way.

The game reflects this well. Earth Minbari War era EA capital ships are Novas and Hyperions which Sharlins on screen eat for breakfast. In game terms these need a miracle to beat a Sharlin one on one, a flukey crtical or three being their only hope. The Omega is designed to be better than either of these and it is. One still needs a huge amount of luck to beat a Sharlin but it has a much better chance than a Hyperion.

However in game terms you get 2 Omegas for a Sharlin and although I have never played it that seems closer to afair fight. Even if the Sharlin won that one it should not get away unhurt unless the EA player rolled really bad lock on dice Even better for EA take a battle group built around an Omega, an oracle and a couple of Skirmish ships.

Either way I think the game approximates the feel of the EA/Minbari ships about right. Sharlins should be something the EA cannot take one on one before the Warlock.

 

[Tal Hawkins]

You dont need to actually see the ships fight to get an impression of how they would compare to each other. No you cant tell EXACTLY, but:

A) The Minbari are still about 800 years ahead of the EA technologically, I dont care how much effort the EA put into research since the war its been about 10 years and you cannot make up an 800 year tech gap just like that.

B) Earth are easily the youngest of the major powers. They have made up some ground by buying weaposn from the Narns (the laser cannons mainly) but this still leaves them with at best equal ships to the Narns, which are signifigantly less advanced than the Centauri and MILES behind the Minbari.

C) WHITESTARS go up against Omegas later and win. Hell they go up against SHADOW Omegas and win. And the whitestar despite its advanced Vorlon tech is a MUCH smaller and less heavily armed ship than a Sharlin.

D) The Minbari (with help from the other first ones but mostly on their own) WON THE LAST SHADOW WAR. They have since had 1000 years to advance even further. Along comes the best ship mankind has to offer. Oooh scary. (I should point out that alot of Minbari technology (and their society for that matter) was basically engineered by the Vorlons to create an 'anti shadow' weapon for the previous war so they did admittedly 'cheat' to get so advanced but that doesnt change the fact that they ARE that advanced )

Its called extrapolation. You can estimate how things compare from general information without being handed a concrete example. Im pretty sure noone has ever tested what would happen if you put say the HMS Victory (Nelsons flagship from the battle of Trafalgar) vs the Bismark (the colossal Nazi battleship from WW2) but it doesnt take a genius to work out what would happen there..... and thats only about 200 year tech gap incidentally.....

A. 800 years with a static culture really means nothing. You see nothing that suggests and real attempts at technological progress by the Minbari. They are too tied up in tradition.

B. Earth also explores the galaxy searching out technology much more aggressively than any other race so age tells you nothing about tech level.

C. Whitestars also get destroyed by Omegas and the WS vs Shadow Omega was a 20 on 6 fight according to several people on this forum. By the rules of ACTA that fight is tilted towards the WS fleet which is crewed by elites and know how to use their ships. On the other hand the Shadow Omegas are crewed by people chosen for their loyalty and brand new so the crew can barely know how to use them.

D. There is NOTHING you can point to to support this claim. All we know for certain is that the Shadows would have most likely won that war 1000 years ago then returned home job well done if Sheridan and company had not stolen Babylon 4.

 

[Karhedron]

A. 800 years with a static culture really means nothing. You see nothing that suggests and real attempts at technological progress by the Minbari. They are too tied up in tradition.

A. Whilst they are culturally somewhat static there is nothing to suggest they are technologically static. The ships seen in WWE are clearly distinctly different from Sharlins so there has been some technological progress in the last 1000 years. They developed the White Stars (admittedly with help from the Vorlons) during the run of the show so they are clearly capable and willing to innovate.

 

[Tal Hawkins]

A. 800 years with a static culture really means nothing. You see nothing that suggests and real attempts at technological progress by the Minbari. They are too tied up in tradition.

A. Whilst they are culturally somewhat static there is nothing to suggest they are technologically static. The ships seen in WWE are clearly distinctly different from Sharlins so there has been some technological progress in the last 1000 years. They developed the White Stars (admittedly with help from the Vorlons) during the run of the show so they are clearly capable and willing to innovate.

But the WS wasnt anything special except for the adaptive armor, small jump drive, and the weapons.

The weapons dont visually appear to match Minbari weapons so it appears that the best parts of the ship are Vorlon.

 

[frobisher]

But the WS wasnt anything special except for the adaptive armor, small jump drive, and the weapons.

And the sensors and the self repair and the enhanced manoeuvre systems and the automation systems... The only thing that is run of the mill about it is the shuttle bay really.

The weapons dont visually appear to match Minbari weapons so it appears that the best parts of the ship are Vorlon.

Actually no. The ship was deliberatly designed to not appear Minbari, so some of the tell tales would have been altered, notably the colour of the beams. It is an Improved Neutron Laser after all (yes, some of the improvements are Vorlon, but the underlying technology is Minbari), and the Molecular Pulsars are stated to be a Minbari invention, just that the White Star is the first ship to use them.

 

[frobisher]

The ships seen in WWE are clearly distinctly different from Sharlins so there has been some technological progress in the last 1000 years.

They do however look exactly like modern era Tinashi Frigates

That said, the Minbari technologies have evolved quite dramatically in the last couple of hundred years.

They've moved from a anti-matter weapons base to high grade molecular weaponary in that time.

 

[Nomad]

Do we know how long the Minbari were in space before the 13th century Shadow War?

In any event, either you assume some degree of technological 'plateauing' on the Minbari's part in the intervening millennium, or pitting the EA against them would be as pointless as using war canoes against a guided missile destroyer*.

On the other hand, that would neatly explain the problem that has spawned this thread (but not fix it).

And the Ancients should be an order of magnitude or three beyond the Minbari.

*One with a couple of 5" guns firing airburst HE and a helo or two with door mounted machine guns (added to try to head off the smart arses...probably unsuccessfully...).

 

[B5freak]

It's amazing to see how this thread weaves and changes as time goes on.

Is it generally accpeted that the Minbari were a strong enough spacefaring race in the 1300's to give the Shadows a run for their money? Sure, that's one of the foundations of the B5 universe. We could argue til we're blue in the face over how much the Minbari fought against actual Shadows vs the shadow thralls, but from all indications the Minbari did go up against the Shadows directly. Otherwise, how could Delenn make the statement, "they missed, Shadows never miss".

Also, if we go off of the AoG fluff concerning the Vree, we know that the Minbari had anti-grav and anti-matter technology at least as far back as the previous shadow war since the Vree got that technology from a derelict Minbari ship "left over from the previous shadow war".

All of that is fine and dandy, but as a justification for why the Minbari should be able to crush EA in ACtA, it's pretty meaningless. After all, if the fleets were built to reflect the relative power one would expect from watching the show, the Vorlons and Shadows in ACtA are WAY behind the power curve.

The Shadows "never miss". No ship sent into Vorlon space has EVER returned. Do these sound like the same fleets we see in ACtA? If your honest answer to that is "no", then you have to ask yourself, why are the Minbari so powerful?

 

[Matt]

yes and if the mimbos were abel to give the shadows a run 1000 years ago. then i think it is strange that they are not better at it 1000 years later.

do i really have one question to mongoose

is it a a goal for mongoose to make a balanced fleet list for all races ?

so that i and a buddy can decide that we want to play a 5 point war lvl game in a week were he play minbos and i play EA

were we can use that week to plan what fleet we want to use and then meet up and play a heads on game with no fancy stuff and we will both have a fair chance ? based mostly on how we piced ouer fleets and what tactiks we use?

and yeah i know ther wil be some lucke involved ther allways is

or on the oter hand is it a goal to make the power lvl off each fleet close to what they are in the series ? (or at least close to the impression we get off the power lvls in the series)

or do you have a totaly diffrent idea for this game ?

guess that was sligthly more then one question do i woude really like to know what is mongoose plan, it woude make it easyer to know what to expekt and to know how muche i want to use on this game

 

[MongooseMatt]

Basically, yes - the fleet lists are balanced with one another.

However, not all fleet choices may match what your opponent brings. . .

 

[Matt]

well thanks for the answer

and i totaly support that what we bring to the tabel migth be diffrent thats what makes diffrent fleets fun one can choose to play one that one thisk are cool and has a style that one enjoys

 

[lastbesthope]

S&P 27 is now up with the anti Minbari tactics article by msprange in it.

LBH

 

[Parsifal]

...then The relative abilities /power levels of the Shadows and Vorlon should logixcally have alternative "Historical" values not bowing to Game Balance, (perhaps in a stand-alone supplement for purists?).

Personally: I certainly have no problem with a single Shadow or Vorlon ship being equivalent to a much larger ship, and a very few S/V ships being equal to a whole fleet of the Younger Races...

As a "house rule" : Perhaps Proxying the next smaller Model to use with the next larger data sheets/stats (eg S/V Fighters for Scouts, Scouts for Destroyers, Destroyers as Lt Cruisers, and Lt Cruisers as Hvy Cruisers) would "kick it up a notch" to the right "Feel"???

Does that make sense?
:roll:

 

[homerun]

Mathew is expressing what I have always thought that really this is all about fleets. WHile I believe there are things that will be worked out here and in future products, I believe the problems are linked to various game dynamics not just my raid level ship doesn't have has as much guns as a Prefect.

I think a lot of people will agree its about fleets and while there are problems each ship has their use. You can't just take a Nova and a Halkorta and say they are the same and should provide an even match. Ships at different priority won't match. Its their use in the fleet that matches their priority level or at least thats my opinion.

Does this mean that all of this works out from day one, no any game will need tweaking and their are concerns being pointed out constantly whenever a revision is made. I think that some of the comments being made to address this issue and they continue to contribute even though they believe there is a serious problem with the game.

My point is that because the way the game is designed scout ships certainly won't stack to many other ships of the same priority and vice versa. Its the role in the fleet. I just don't agree how it can read that any ship or any priority level is equal since its also how that player uses it.

I see that there are problems being experienced by gamers, but I rather concentrate on suggesting solutions to making the matches challenging and tactically interesting rather than make it so every well made priority fleet has a 50/50 shot. Thats awfully difficult in my opinion. I think its far better to make it challenging and interesting which many here have said it may not be. Thats where the concern should be and I certainly know that while mongoose may not totally agree with some of our opinions, they are aware of it and will respond in their own way when the time comes. I have found numerous occasions where this is the case back to the old ACTA game. Few other companies have responded to their users in such a quick manner. This will be worked I think, things will change maybe EA will be made better, maybe things will clarified, may be things will be adjusted in regarded to certain traits. I am not saying wait and see but I would rather have more input on suggestions about stealth and beam weapons rather than who is better EA or Minbari.

True, but under the PL system, three Hyperions should have a fighting chance against a Sharlin, and I'm not convinced that they do.

No, no, no - or, at least, not necessarily.

The PL system does not (cannot? sometimes) work on direct comparisons of ship classes. Ships in the same PL band are not as good as each other in all areas - and this is a very important distinction to note as compared to a 'straight' points system.

I'll give an extreme example to highlight what I mean.

Take (most) scout vessels. Generally speaking, they are one PL higher than they should be if you consider their combat potential alone. However, the PL lists assume two things for these ships;

1. They will not be used to go toe-to-toe with warships and wil instead be used in missions where their abilities come to the fore. Think blockade running combined with their Stealth.

2. They will be used as a _component_ in a fleet, where they act as a force multiplier.

One on one, scout ships get smashed every time. Used as above and they suddenly become worth their PL.

CTA is primarily a fleet game. It _can_ work as a ship duelling system but you have to be very careful about the ship you take. A Hyperion can be a good ship in a Raid level duel. A Lesthath probably isn't.

Now, to go back to your Hyperions, this ship is a good 'all-rounder'. What you might need agaionst a Sharlin is something a bit more specialised. In fact, to take it further, one of the Sharlin's abilities is to driectly target one of the Hyperion's weaknesses (its low damage score).

There are always things, as a games designer, that you want to tweak further with the systems you write. However, the PL system and, more importantly, where the ships lie in that system, is not one of them - for me, at least. Players have to sit down and figure out what their fleet gives them and what the enemy fleet has to counter that. And I _like_ that. You can't just pick up three Raid ships (or whatever) and go for it. You have to think.

As for other recent posts, good call on boarding Minbari - generally, they only have average Troop scores and Stealth don't help against a bunch of angry marines. . .