Those pesky Minbari

[homerun]

Thats an interesting point and I think that would be preferable yeah morshins are nasty but its an incentive for both the minbari player and opponent ot change and use different tactics there is only so much mileage you get out of a long range beam killing fleet if the enemy closes within 10 resonably intact then the minbari are in for a long day.

So it really can help adjust tactics. It hurts minbari a little because a lot of people already know what tactics they will use. The fast tactics described earlier in raid very likely surprises and befuddles them because its not the normal minbari tactic not to mention the fact his ships are well suited to his strategy.

It just occurred to me that 3-4 fighters on CAP can completely block a Pod attack, even with escorting fighters. Escorts move in to "attack and draw the CAP to dogfight, but then (with standard fighter bases) there's probably no physical way for Pod markers to move "past" them into peg contact.

Also (no rules handy Q), what happens if an enemy fighter touches both a Fighter and a Pod in dogfight? Do I get to use the Fighter's better Dogfight with a +1 for the Pod?

So, at least Pod tactics might encourage a Minbari player to bring a Morshin instead of a Tinashi - good trade to me...[
/quote]

 

[Karlopopoli]

right after the poll running for ages the results show me.

most people think the minbari are too hard some of these would be made content if the vorlons were decently hard too.

A large number of people play minbari and think they're the perfect race for them.

6 people are idiots

 

[Pauly_D]

I dont think it really matters about how good the Vorlons are in comparison, this discussion is about whether the minbari are too powerful full stop, its nothing to do with the Vorlons being underpowered and theres a serarate thread for that, just leave it how it is for a few months and let the law of averages work itself out

 

[philogara]

6 people are idiots

"Ask a stupid question....."

 

[Mecha]

6 people are idiots

Whats it you moron!

That stealth is not just beneath protection becouse of too low damage and crew points in most Minbari ships. only MF ship that has good number of damage and crew points is Sharlin Warcruiser but its war level ship so also lower level ships need more damage and crew.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Well I fought a minbari fleet last night and tried out some of the advice from S&P

My scouts were both destroyed in the opening turn by the Minbari player opening jump points behind the wafer thin hulled ships.
Quite how Vree or Centauri scouts can survive that little trick is beyond me. Even Narn and EA scouts will most likely be crippled

Then as I got my big ships in range and position to start pounding the minbari who were in three arcs, I failed EVERY stealth roll

I got one volley of fire into a teshlan and rolled poorly meaning the damn thing survived.

either the +1 stealth at range should go or there should be a corresponding -1 up close. Every time I face the minbari it's a nightmare locking on only for your fire once it does hit to not do enough damage.
If they're protected by stealth their ships should have less damage.

the veshatan is a battle level ship with 56 points of damage more than the non stealth protected EA and centauri equivalents

 

[B_Steele]

Sounds like your dice were against you. I hate when that happens...like when my buddies twenty-two dice, re-rolling misses, needing 5s...couldn't get a single one to come up for him.

It was sad really, those poor, poor Narn at the helm must have been crying...

8)

-Bry

 

[Rorschach]

We did what started as a 3-way fight this past Saturday, but it turned into a complete gang-up on the Minbari, and they STILL only just lost. No time for a full report, but I'll summarize.

Each fleet had 4 battle points. EA, Drazi, and Minbari.

EA: Warlock and 4 Chronos

Drazi: 4 Sunhawks(?), 3 Warbirds, 2 SolarHawks, 1 Stormfalcon

Minbari: 4 Teshlan, 2 Tinashi

EA started with Warlock and a Chronos in hyper. The Minbari with both Tinashi in Hyper. Drazi lined up aimed straight at the 4 Teshlan.

Turn 1 was mostly closing in, though the Teshlan destroyed one Sunhawk and crippled the other 3, with nothing in return.

By Turn 2, the Drazi were in a scrum with the Teshlan while the Chronos closed in on the stronger Minbari flank. Even though the Drazi made every Stealth roll but 1 (and for a Solarhawk's fire wasted no less), they only dragged down 1 Teshlan. Between opening Jump Points and return fire, about half the Drazi ships were dead or crippled.

Turn 3, the Tinashi arrive just after the Warlock does. The Warlock misses its Stealth roll for the main target, and can only use its secondary weapons to any effect. Between EA fire, and the Drazi making tons of come about rolls and Stealth rolls, one more Teshlan buys it. The Tinashi Pair finish off all but one Sunhawk, a Solarhawk, a Warbird, cripple another Warbird, and two Chronos.

Turn 4, with good board position and undamaged, the Tinashi look like they'll easily dominate the rest of the game, so the EA-Drazi alliance holds. The one crippled Sunhawk (with 1 dp left!), who happens to be right in front of a Tinashi facing the right way, makes his Ramming roll! And wins the Contested Roll (I roll a 2, he rolls a 1!). Thus, the beginning of the end for the Minbari, and the battle turns as the ram completely destroys the Tinashi.
The remaining Teshlan and Tinashi destroy some Chronos, a Warbird, and the last Solarhawk.

Turn 5
A scare happens a minute later as the Tinashi takes all the Warlock's weapons offline. But despite continued attrition, the Drazi's firepower is still felt as they make every remaining Stealth roll, and the Stormfalcon manages to get on the Tinashi's tail. The Teshlan dies this turn.

Last Turn
The Drazi Stormfalcon makes the stealth roll - Dead Tinashi.


The remaining ships were the weaponless Warlock, a Chronos, a Warbird, and the half-dead Stormfalcon.
The insane Drazi Luck (GREEN!) carried the day. Without that Ram and constant Stealth rolls, its almost certain the Drazi would've been wiped out, and both Tinashi safely BEHIND the Warlock.
Even at 2-1 odds, the Minbari were a bear to deal with.

-D

 

[emperorpenguin]

Sounds like your dice were against you. I hate when that happens...like when my buddies twenty-two dice, re-rolling misses, needing 5s...couldn't get a single one to come up for him.

It was sad really, those poor, poor Narn at the helm must have been crying...

8)

-Bry

oh it was one of those dice days but even so, if you're playing as Centauri or Vree with very weak low damage score scouts trying to reduce minbari stealth, all they need to do is open jump points on your scouts and remove that threat
It wouldn't be so bad if jump points couldn't be opened until the second turn but my scouts were destroyed before they could even move, let alone reduce anyone's stealth
there was no counter to this minbari tactic and I still cannot think of one

 

[Lagavulin]

Except of course that in many scenarios you cannot leave ships in hyperspace (unless I am missing something). Also a jump point does 6ad triple damage (no book to hand but I am fairly sure thats right) - to a hull 4 ship thats 9 damage and maybe 50/50 on the critical. Might cripple it might not depending on the ship and luck.

The ships that do this are dropping into close range with your fleet, and beacause of the Minbaris lack of ships, they should be outnumbered if you have selected the right fleet. You should still have ships able to move to bring fire to bear and the enemies stealth will be minimised. If the scout is alive, or you have another, you have a good chance of locking on against stealth 3+

The jump point attack in nasty but has limitations and exposes the attacker to closer range fire. I have used it myself vs centauri and league and it hurts but it usually ends up with a dead tigara or torotha.

 

[Dywnarc]

I am more interested about the game where two fleets struggled to beat the Minbari ganging up on them, and it sounds like the drazni where lucky with there stealth roles.

I have not had time to do anymore playtesting, but I think its becoming clear that Point for point Minbari ae not on equal footing.

*******

And in my gaming group I STILL remain undeafeated with Minbari....

AT least I am not called a powergamer cause I play Dark Elves in Warhamer Fantasy

 

[Chernobyl]

did you use the warlock's AJP to trash any enemy ships?
if not, a missed opportunity!
Chernobyl

 

[emperorpenguin]

Except of course that in many scenarios you cannot leave ships in hyperspace (unless I am missing something). Also a jump point does 6ad triple damage (no book to hand but I am fairly sure thats right) - to a hull 4 ship thats 9 damage and maybe 50/50 on the critical. Might cripple it might not depending on the ship and luck.

Well in tournament scenarios you can keep 2 pts of ships in hyperspace. How many players take more than 2 scouts? the minbari open jump points behind them and bang they're crippled (and thus useless, unable to use scout) or destroyed. Don't forget any critical damage they might get is trebled too.. :x

If the scout is alive, or you have another, you have a good chance of locking on against stealth 3+

I took two, a reasonable number you'd think, take any more and you won't actually have any warships to fire at the de-stealthed minbari!

 

[Lagavulin]

I have never played in a tournament, ACTA anyway - although I have wargamed for years tournament play has never appealled. Although we should consider tournament play when discussing a races strengthts it is not the most important factor. If tournament play always allows use of advanced jump point for 2 ships then certainly Minbari will use it to their advantage - so will ISA and Vorlon. Certainly as has already been pointed out the Warlock in your scenario could have done the same to a minbari popping out somewhere out of neutron laser arc.

In general play adavanced jump point is a nice bonus but one you cannot use all that often. My regular centauri opponent, blessed with patrol level scout has taken to using 4 at battle level vs my Minbari, has as the our league/ISA player, I would use at least 3 with the Narn, (my other fleet). Earth is cursed with a raid level scout but that is not a problem with the Minbari.

Yes the Minbari are strong but they are not unbeatable.

 

[Matt]

Yes the Minbari are strong but they are not unbeatable.

true do they are a bit harder then they shud be to be balanced

 

[emperorpenguin]

Certainly as has already been pointed out the Warlock in your scenario could have done the same to a minbari popping out somewhere out of neutron laser arc.

:shock: :? :roll: erm what Warlock? I was playing as centauri! I never mentioned a warlock! if i am allowed warlocks in a centauri fleet that's certainly news to me! :lol:

there are no advanced jump points in my fleet to return the favour on the minbari

 

[Lagavulin]

Aplogies - I got 2 posts mixed up in my head while writing mine. An earlier post had referred to a game with with a Warlock which could have pulled off the AJP trick.

 

[B5freak]

emperorpenguin wrote:

there are no advanced jump points in my fleet to return the favour on the minbari

No, but you can field more (almost double) Double Damage, Super AP, Beam AD, at about the same range, per ship of equivalent priority level.

War -
Sharlin 6AD Fore, 4AD AFt @ 30"
Octurion 6AD Fore, 2AD Aft @ 35"

Battle -
Tinashi 4AD @ 25"
Primus 6AD @ 25"

Raid -
Teshlan 2AD @ 20"
Sulust 4AD @ 25"
Prefect 3AD @ 25"

 

[emperorpenguin]

emperorpenguin wrote:

there are no advanced jump points in my fleet to return the favour on the minbari

No, but you can field more (almost double) Double Damage, Super AP, Beam AD, at about the same range, per ship of equivalent priority level.

War -
Sharlin 6AD Fore, 4AD AFt @ 30"
Octurion 6AD Fore, 2AD Aft @ 35"

Battle -
Tinashi 4AD @ 25"
Primus 6AD @ 25"

Raid -
Teshlan 2AD @ 20"
Sulust 4AD @ 25"
Prefect 3AD @ 25"

none of which is any good if it can't lock on because your scouts were destroyed before firing even commenced....

 

[Lagavulin]

So don't use just 2 scouts and keep them fair enough apart that 1 AJP can't get more than 1. Also keep other ships and fighters where they can move to engage whatever comes out of the the AJP while it is at short range range.

Centauri with patrol level scouts can take 4 without too much pain if they are that worried about Minbari. Ok that are less useful againt other races but not completely useless - almost guarentees reroll for initiative first turn or deployment should you lose either, and effectively a couple of free CAF for per turn for the battle lasers.

A Minbari who leaves 2 of his ships off table turn one will leave very few ships on table for you to have to scout. If you use 4 scouts at least 2 will be uncrippled following the AJP. One of those should reduce stealth on a Minbai ship which you then engage with every battle laser you have - don't pick a Sharlin if you can avoid it, select a 4+ stealth one. If your scout has been successful that leaves you an average 2 battle points of lasers to fire at one ship - from 2 Primus this is 12AD, with average luck 13 hits meaning a very sick Tinashi. More if you managed a few CAF orders which you should be able to do as you likely badly outnumber the Minbari who while not have included any patrol choices and have 2 ships off table.

Turn 2 you have 2 scouts left, the Minbari ships that come thro the jump point will have fighters clustered in a single arc to try and reduce their stealth even further and be within 10 of at least some of your ships. So unless you are unlucky you have a target at 3+ or even 2+ stealth within range of many of your weapons.

Yes AJP is a neat trick, especially in tournament play but it is not impossible to counter. In the world outside tournament play it is an occassional bonus factor.