Waylander.
Mongoose
I'm in the process of reading it. It seems to me that it is said that Narns have some reptiles aspects but are mammals.Dastari said:
Things We Do Not Love About B5 RPG (please get involved!)
- Thread starter TheAuldGrump
- Start date
Ok, here's my list of desires.
1.) I'd like to echo the request for a GM screen.
2.) Keep with D20 but update to 3.5. Since its been about 8 years since I RPed I am stuck with the material that is out there right now. Since the B5 books make me buy the D&D Player's Handbook to get all of the rules I think that B5 should update itself when D&D does. After all, Ambidextrous no longer exists as a D&D feat but B5 allows it. Well what does it do? I don't know because I have the 3.5 book. Read Lips is no longer a skill in 3.5, it's been merged with Spot, so there's no need to keep it. Besides that I'll echo the need for more skills that are specific to B5. You're taking out D&D skills so put some new ones in.
3.) From looking through this thread I seem to be the only one, but please change the Hit Point and Constitution rules. Right now, if someone roles an 18 and puts it in Constituion they're nigh immortal (slight exageration) although still just as prone to be knocked unconscious but someone with a 10 in CON is a walking dead man. Unfortunately, players never understand the benefit of CON since all it does is help you stabilize so they never put their points there. CON needs to be more important somehow and I'd really love to give my players more HP since I like to run more combat oriented campaigns. One of my players actually walked out after the first game and when questioned later he said that it was the low hit points that bothered him.
4.) Let me echo the desire for proofreading of some type.
5.) Remove the rules from the episode guides and integrate them with the source book or with more category specific expanders. For instance, I've made an index in one of my notebooks of all the feats, skills, new races, prestige classes, telepathic abilities and other stuff that are spread across each expander. Please just add the new feats, skills, and telepathic abilities in with the old. The Prestige Classes are the one thing that need not necessarily be all together although that would be nice too. It'd also be nice to integrate the new base classes (ranger, technomage, and raider in with the basic package and I'd advocate a new Mutari base class).
So there is already a book just on ships on the way. It'd be nice to also publish a book just on the races of the galaxy and include things that were mentioned in the show and never shown as well as things mentioned in the Galactic Guide. This way you could integrate the rules for the playable races in one spot as well as adding some new ones maybe for the Yolu and Llort, but also create rules for unintelligent races and creatures that you might find while exploring. Right now, I am limited to creatures that I can pull out of the D&D monsters guide that I try and convert but this isn't working so well since those things are almost always way to deadly and to many of them rely on magic.
Telepathic rules need to be tweaked and I think that P-rating needs to be more random. Players shouldn't be allowed to decide their P-rating just like a child can't choose his traits before being born. For my players I just roll a D12 and it falls where it will. Still, I had to forbid the telepath class since I had three people all who wanted to be a telepath. The telepaths as they stand are way to powerful and can probably only be balanced with Rangers or Technomages, which I don't want to include. We either need more epic style base classes (hence my desire for a mutari) or we need to balance all of their abilities.
6.) We need better indexes in these books so that we can look up information.
7.) Fix the worker class. They need level enhancements just like everyone else even if it's a free Hobby feat every so many levels. Otherwise you really should just make it an NPC only class. It might also be nice to add more worker style base classes as playable classes and make the generic worker an NPC.
8.) Give us expansions on other eras. I really really want a book about the time of Valen. Throw in a few new races and some new rules about ships and weapons in that time as well as some progress on the war (oh and clan rules for the Blood Song clan). Another nice expansion would be on the Dilgar which could detail their history, racial rules (along with subraces for the Tall and Dark Dilgar), ships, weapons, and other stuff as well as specifics on the war.
9.) The galactic guide and anywhere else has failed to give us rotation/revolution conversions from any of the alien worlds to Earth. That information is sort of important and your planetary generation system doesn't even include that as one of the things that needs generating(!!!). How long is a Minbari year? How many hours in the day? When players are on Minbar, this would be good to know.
That's all that I can think of for now although I'm sure I'll think of more later. My players all grumble about the low HP so I think that is the main one. My one friend who GMs Star Wars says that even if we have low HP we ought to have something like Star War's Vitality system so that we don't die so easily.
1.) I'd like to echo the request for a GM screen.
2.) Keep with D20 but update to 3.5. Since its been about 8 years since I RPed I am stuck with the material that is out there right now. Since the B5 books make me buy the D&D Player's Handbook to get all of the rules I think that B5 should update itself when D&D does. After all, Ambidextrous no longer exists as a D&D feat but B5 allows it. Well what does it do? I don't know because I have the 3.5 book. Read Lips is no longer a skill in 3.5, it's been merged with Spot, so there's no need to keep it. Besides that I'll echo the need for more skills that are specific to B5. You're taking out D&D skills so put some new ones in.
3.) From looking through this thread I seem to be the only one, but please change the Hit Point and Constitution rules. Right now, if someone roles an 18 and puts it in Constituion they're nigh immortal (slight exageration) although still just as prone to be knocked unconscious but someone with a 10 in CON is a walking dead man. Unfortunately, players never understand the benefit of CON since all it does is help you stabilize so they never put their points there. CON needs to be more important somehow and I'd really love to give my players more HP since I like to run more combat oriented campaigns. One of my players actually walked out after the first game and when questioned later he said that it was the low hit points that bothered him.
4.) Let me echo the desire for proofreading of some type.
5.) Remove the rules from the episode guides and integrate them with the source book or with more category specific expanders. For instance, I've made an index in one of my notebooks of all the feats, skills, new races, prestige classes, telepathic abilities and other stuff that are spread across each expander. Please just add the new feats, skills, and telepathic abilities in with the old. The Prestige Classes are the one thing that need not necessarily be all together although that would be nice too. It'd also be nice to integrate the new base classes (ranger, technomage, and raider in with the basic package and I'd advocate a new Mutari base class).
So there is already a book just on ships on the way. It'd be nice to also publish a book just on the races of the galaxy and include things that were mentioned in the show and never shown as well as things mentioned in the Galactic Guide. This way you could integrate the rules for the playable races in one spot as well as adding some new ones maybe for the Yolu and Llort, but also create rules for unintelligent races and creatures that you might find while exploring. Right now, I am limited to creatures that I can pull out of the D&D monsters guide that I try and convert but this isn't working so well since those things are almost always way to deadly and to many of them rely on magic.
Telepathic rules need to be tweaked and I think that P-rating needs to be more random. Players shouldn't be allowed to decide their P-rating just like a child can't choose his traits before being born. For my players I just roll a D12 and it falls where it will. Still, I had to forbid the telepath class since I had three people all who wanted to be a telepath. The telepaths as they stand are way to powerful and can probably only be balanced with Rangers or Technomages, which I don't want to include. We either need more epic style base classes (hence my desire for a mutari) or we need to balance all of their abilities.
6.) We need better indexes in these books so that we can look up information.
7.) Fix the worker class. They need level enhancements just like everyone else even if it's a free Hobby feat every so many levels. Otherwise you really should just make it an NPC only class. It might also be nice to add more worker style base classes as playable classes and make the generic worker an NPC.
8.) Give us expansions on other eras. I really really want a book about the time of Valen. Throw in a few new races and some new rules about ships and weapons in that time as well as some progress on the war (oh and clan rules for the Blood Song clan). Another nice expansion would be on the Dilgar which could detail their history, racial rules (along with subraces for the Tall and Dark Dilgar), ships, weapons, and other stuff as well as specifics on the war.
9.) The galactic guide and anywhere else has failed to give us rotation/revolution conversions from any of the alien worlds to Earth. That information is sort of important and your planetary generation system doesn't even include that as one of the things that needs generating(!!!). How long is a Minbari year? How many hours in the day? When players are on Minbar, this would be good to know.
That's all that I can think of for now although I'm sure I'll think of more later. My players all grumble about the low HP so I think that is the main one. My one friend who GMs Star Wars says that even if we have low HP we ought to have something like Star War's Vitality system so that we don't die so easily.
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Dastari said:
Well to be fair, the DeathWalker episode is the only episode we ever see a Dilgar in, and DeathWalker is the only Dilgar we have ever seen. BAsically Mongoose had gew options for Dilgar piccies.
Dastari said:
Seconded
Dastari said:
Well to be fair, when B5 came out D&D was only at 3rd edition, you can still find the 3.0 SRD on the web for reference for the skills
http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html
As for new skills they have Computer Use, Medical, Drive, Pilot, Survival, Telepathy
Dastari said:
HP is supposed ot be low in B5, combat is deadly in B5, there are other ways to solve your problems.
Dastari said:
Agreed
Dastari said:
So if we don't get incremental rules packets in the source books, you want them to redo the main book everytime? Or is this just a note for the 2nd edition.
Dastari said:
But not everyone wants all the information for all the races, as it is the big 4 have a book each, and the 5 league races another book, so a book containing everything would be huge and cost well over £100
Dastari said:
Dastari said:
Agrred
Dastari said:
There is a worker class download, have you pcked it up yet?
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/worker.pdf
Also some new lifestyle rules:
http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/lifestyle.pdf
Dastari said:
They can't do everything all at once, and going into 'new' areas like this means the WB/JMS approval process will be longer, or they may even be denied outright.
Dastari said:
If it's that important to your game, make it up. There are no hard or fast rules for rotation rates that I know of, although I do admit my space science classeswere a few years ago now.
Dastari said:
Like I said above, you're supposed to die more easily than other RPGs. But in general, if you don't like the rules, tweak, change or add to your GM heart desire.
LBH
True enough; hard to get too many pictures of a race virtually extinct, and given only a relative handful of Dilgar still live, would there really be much point in Mongoose coming up with new pictures? How much effort should be devoted to describing a near-extinct race? Personally, the extant stats and picture are good enough for me. Can't blame you, though; the Dilgar ARE cool. Am more interested in seeing more of the alien races described, like the Ch'lonas or Koulani, who have bothered the Earth Alliance border several times, or the Sh'lassen from GROPOS, none of who have ANY pictures I have been able to find. Certainly no B5 RPG stats.lastbesthope said:
lastbesthope said:
Yes, but look at the D&D book. Are there any photos there? No. They actually drew pictures. This is one of the things that they are slowly rectifying with B5 with the pics of ships and things but they really really ought to just generate their own pictures instead of just relying on screenshots from the show. Yes, those are cool but especially when they're getting up to like 20 books now they are running out of pictures to use that they haven't used already. Hire an artist and just draw some stuff. Plus, I think that they could have gotten a better picture of Deathwalker. I told someone that the Dilgar are basically bipedal cats but she doesn't look all that catlike in that pic at all.
lastbesthope said:
Thank you about that last bit. I don't know where my mind was. Of course there are new skills. As for the other part, I wasn't chastizing them for using 3rd Edition rules. I am just giving them a wish list for the 2nd Edition. I will however chastize them for making us require to pick up the D&D Player's Handbook to even play the game. I picked up the B5 booking thinking that it would be completely self contained with all of the rules that I would need to play a B5 game and I was pretty miffed that not only did I have to buy the D&D book but also the DM's Guide since the B5 book took up half its space with an episode guide instead of with game rules. I really wish that the second edition would just ignore the episode guide stuff and just give us all the rules and sundry that would be necessary to play a B5 game. [/quote]
lastbesthope said:
Oh I realize that and I think that I've scaled the threat level so that nothing will kill my characters outright. However, I think that the creators of this game took the fact that B5 is a show about diplomacy way to far because really only the first season is about diplomacy. The middle three are all about a Tolkienesque war to rid the galaxy of an evil threat from the dawn of time. B5 is a fantasy with some sci-fi trappings. It really ought to be more combat oriented especially if you want to play during wartime or anything that isn't season 1 or 5.
lastbesthope said:
That's just a note for the 2nd Edition. We might as well integrate all the new feats and telepathic abilities together so that we don't have to look all over the place for this stuff. It shouldn't really add more than a few pages to the respective chapters and if they're taking the episode guide out then we should have plenty of room.
lastbesthope said:
Er...no. Have you ever seen the D&D Monster's manual? It gives about a half-page to a full page for each race. For a 128 page book that means we could probably cram 200 races in there. Keep in mind that I don't want a complete history of every lifeform in the galaxy. I'm just asking for the basic rules (like ability modifiers) for all the intelligent races as well as some rules for some nonsentient lifeforms which is where we're really lacking in B5. Give us some rules for animals and creatures. The Galaxy Guide sometimes mentioned things like that but they didn't give the rules for the creatures in question. Certainly if you're running a game that is just about diplomacy on B5, you won't need this but if you're using B5 as a whole universe to explore the length and breadth of as well as all of its various time periods then this is the sort of thing that adds some real depth to it.
lastbesthope said:
Yes, but those rules don't really help much. They give different pay rates and maybe a bonus to a certain skill but it really doesn't balance the worker class with any of the other classes. We need rules to give the workers some sort of benefit that will make players want to play them. Giving them regular bonuses at every few levels would help a lot since as workers stand now they only get a bonus at level 6 and then nothing. I think that the "thug" Worker subset is the only one that actually gets a bonus every few levels.
lastbesthope said:
Is there an approval process on this stuff? I just figured that they had license to do whatever they wanted with B5 as long as it didn't contradict the show. Certainly all of these books can't be approved personally by JMS or they wouldn't contain the errors that they do. Either way, I'm currently running a campaign during the beginning of the Shadown War 1000 years ago and it is very difficult since the information provided in the Minbari Book, Ranger book, and Technomage book are very sparse about that time period. For intance, none of those books ever state how many years CV (canath'Valen) there were. It would be nice to have more to go on, especially with Dilgar subraces. Why else introduce the concept that there were three races of Dilgar in the first place? The show certainly didn't mention that, so the people who made the games must have been thinking about that.
lastbesthope said:
Nor are there hard and fast rules about asteroid fields and where gas giants occur and everything else. That's why you roll for it during planet generation. You just weight the rolls based on what we know from science. Similarly, rotation/revolution are two planetary traits that should have a rolling factor since they should influence the possibility of inhabitable life on a planet. These rules are also important for giving the dates given in the Minbari, Centauri, and Narn expansion books in context since without a conversion to Earth years I have no idea when 12,000d'V was in Earth terms.
lastbesthope said:
I realize that I can tweak it but I'm always afraid of unbalancing the system because although HP and DV are weak in this game, they've increased your stabilization chance with CON and given Damage Reduction (which is very rare in D&D). If I give my characters a D&D hit die I'm afraid that they'll be too difficult to kill, nor do I want to just switch to D&D rules becasue then I have to create AC rules for all the various armor, which I'd hate to do. That would also take away any unique flair from this game. I just think that it's ludicrous that in a sci-fantasy setting (the only other one that I can think of is Star Wars) that your HP is so low. It's not like the command staff on the show was dropping like flies.
Anyway, it's just my opinion to make the second edition better. I would really love for the 2nd ed. to be a self contained book so that I don't have to thumb through D&D every time that I want to find something.
cjhaacke said:
Yes, but if you're setting a campaign pre 2235 then there are still plenty of Dilgar on Omelos and thus it would be nice to get descriptions of the three races of Dilgar. I can't imagine that I'm the only guy that's more interested in playing the time before the show or after the show than during the show. While it would be neat to weave one's stories around specific episodes I think that it's a lot neater to explain what happened in the past and what happened next. Anyhow, I have a Dilgar character in my campaign set ust before Valen arrives on the scene and I just would have liked to have provided him with some decent pics.
Dastari said:
As for pre-Dilgar war campaigns, good point. But, pre-Valen? Were the Dilgar even off of Omelos at that time? Not that one could NOT be; after all, the Vorlons and the Vree picked up human hitchikers well before humans left earth's gravity well. When you talk about explaining what happend in the past, are you talking about describing how the Dilgar ended up becoming a genocidal/imperialistc race? that would be interesting.
lastbesthope
Mongoose
@ Dastari,
Dude, if I quoted you quoting me this'd be a mile long
Dilgar pics: Well since as far as we knonw DeathWalker is the last Dilgar, then apart from using a bad pic of her they did OK.
On D20 and needing a PHB : Back them Mongoose were still going down the D20 path, as were a lot of publishers, so you can hardly blame Mongoose for that. I think B5 is the last d20 game they will ever do, as all new games since have been OGL AFAIK. As for thinking the d20 book would be self contained, it says on the back you need the 3.0 PHB, and it has the d20 logo on the spine and front cover which is pretty synonomous with needing the PHB or some other core book.
On combat, fine if you want more combat do that, but give your players enough levels to have a chance of surviing. All the main characters are reaonably high in levels, and even they get pretty beat up in combat.
On race info: The Monsters Manual is a bad comparison as it holds info on things to kill, not to be roleplayed (well in the main). The Race books give you vast amounts of background info, hence the size. A better (but not perfect) comparison would be the Races books from D&D (Wild, Stone, etc)
I'll skip to the end now as I am getting tired and need sleep, but I think the intent is that 2nd Edition B5 RPG will be OGL, so that at least will be an improvement as far as your concerned.
LBH
Dude, if I quoted you quoting me this'd be a mile long
Dilgar pics: Well since as far as we knonw DeathWalker is the last Dilgar, then apart from using a bad pic of her they did OK.
On D20 and needing a PHB : Back them Mongoose were still going down the D20 path, as were a lot of publishers, so you can hardly blame Mongoose for that. I think B5 is the last d20 game they will ever do, as all new games since have been OGL AFAIK. As for thinking the d20 book would be self contained, it says on the back you need the 3.0 PHB, and it has the d20 logo on the spine and front cover which is pretty synonomous with needing the PHB or some other core book.
On combat, fine if you want more combat do that, but give your players enough levels to have a chance of surviing. All the main characters are reaonably high in levels, and even they get pretty beat up in combat.
On race info: The Monsters Manual is a bad comparison as it holds info on things to kill, not to be roleplayed (well in the main). The Race books give you vast amounts of background info, hence the size. A better (but not perfect) comparison would be the Races books from D&D (Wild, Stone, etc)
I'll skip to the end now as I am getting tired and need sleep, but I think the intent is that 2nd Edition B5 RPG will be OGL, so that at least will be an improvement as far as your concerned.
LBH
Dastari said:
That was an AOG invention from the B5Wars Dilgar War supplement. Basically it was a device to show how nasty the Dilgar were having exterminated the other two sub races. Basically a race driven entirely by evolutionary pressures... Hmm, I wonder who was pulling their strings eh..?
Dastari said:
The main characters got pretty mauled in the series, and that in and of itself would be enough to justify the low hit points - personally I still think it's too generous, but then I've come mostly from games where you don't become more resiliant to damage the older/more experienced you become...
LoneStranger
Mongoose
The one thing I will comment on with recent observations is the fact people want to see drawings, sure they did that in the main D&D book but they also did that in the previous B5 RPG and they sucked. Hopefully Mongoose wouldn't get the same people that the other guys did but I do worry about drawn images in B5 books.
However for the 2nd ed of B5 making it OGL would work a lot better. I think everyone got sick of having to refer players and GMs to the D&D main book for each setting produced.
However for the 2nd ed of B5 making it OGL would work a lot better. I think everyone got sick of having to refer players and GMs to the D&D main book for each setting produced.
cjhaacke said:
My campaign definitely involves abduction of members of many races by alien powers, so it's actually chalk full of primitive members of several races. I have a Brakiri, Narn, Dur'Nara, Dilgar, Human, and Minbari. So only the Minbari understands about space flight and all of the technological aspects of things. The others are all as my Minbari player, Shawn, refers to them "primitive screwheads". It's a lot of fun especially since my human decided that he wanted to be a member of the Anasazi Indian tribe and has done a lot of research so that he can act and speak like they would (he's even obtained a dictionary of their words for authenticity's sake).
It's a very very fun and interesting campaign especially since it means that all but the Minbari have to act like true fish out of water. Anyhow, I was just wishing that we knew more about the Dilgar because my Dilgar player and I have had to make it up as we went along. We figured that they'd use clawed gloves for melee combat and had to make up rules for that and I'm assuming that they are at the medevil level of technology right now but I just wish that there were some notes on their history and weaponry for use in this time period.
Also, I still don't buy the argument that they're a dead race post 2235. They went so far in the galaxy that some member of their race other than Deathwalker must have been elsewhere when their sun went nova, so the Dilgar still offer some fairly interesting role playing possibilities even during the Babylon 5 TV series.
lastbesthope said:
LBH, your comments are noted. I do feel like I need to clarify two points though. My problem is not with the fact that it's D20. My problem is with the fact that you need the D&D book to go along with it. A friend of mine runs Star Wars campaigns and that is also a D20 system, but he tells me that for those books you don't need the D&D Player's Handbook to go along with it. The Star Wars books themselves contain all of the information that you need to roleplay. All that I'm saying is that Babylon 5 should be the same way.
The other comment is about what I've quoted above. For some reason you keep on thinking that I"m asking for something that I'm not. Obviously I don't want a book on all of the intelligent races of the galaxy and their histories. That information has been published elsewhere for most of those races and while I think that there is room for a Vol 2 of the League of Non-Aligned Worlds to talk about the other members of the League I don't think that we need a book that binds together all of the information from the Earth Alliance, Narn, Centauri, Minbari, and League books. That would be silly.
What I am asking for is something akin to the monsters manual. We know from the show that there are many scary creatures out there. There are Nakaleen Feeders, Zargs, and whatever that creature was that Sheridan saw when he was possessed in season 2 and was seeing things constantly. The Galactic Guide talks about dangerous predators on many of the worlds that it comments on and the Dur'Nara entry in the Narn book talks about the creatures deep within Nar'Shal that the Dur'Nara protect the other Narn from. Ok, so what are all of the creatures on the main planets in the B5 universe. For instance, if your ship crash lands on one of the Kor-Lyan kingdoms, what would you expect to find once you left the ship? What dangerous beasts lurk out there?
The D&D monsters manual also gives the basic racial information on elves, dwarves, gnomes, halflings and all of the playable races, so all that I'm saying is that the B5 version of the book could also give that much information on all of the races so that if we encounter a Kor-Lyan we know what its average stats are, but at the same time we could have a book covering hundreds of various lifeforms that exist throughout the galaxy most of which would be unintelligent.
Does my point make sense now?
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Dastari said:
The main reason the SW book didn't need the PHB is because Wizards did it, so they could put in the bits from the PHB that you would need for other games. mongoose do not have that option. Some other books mention that you need one of the d20 compmatible core books (not necessarily PHB) to play their d20 products. But you can't really be a d20 system and not need the PHB, if you don't need the PHB than you're an OGL game, not d20. The d20 logo is more specific than the OGL license IIRC.
LBH
Babylon 5 Aide
Mongoose
A good example of a game with the OGL is AEG's Spycraft - it is self contained, something I would love to see in a 2.0 of B5.
Eryx said:
Did you even watch the TV show? B5 was a Tolkienesque fantasy set in space complete with evil beings from the dawn of time, wizards, and heroes.
If the B5 game matched the show, it ought to be a whole lot more like D&D. As things stand, the game seems geared only towards season 1 of the show and while I like some of those eps, I think that the true greatness of the show comes from Seasons 2-4 when it is very much an epic D&D style fantasy only with scientific explanations and spaceships.
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Dastari,
If you see it like that, that's fine. but combat in the B5 show is nothing like combat in D&D. People get hurt and killed way more easily.
LBH
If you see it like that, that's fine. but combat in the B5 show is nothing like combat in D&D. People get hurt and killed way more easily.
LBH
