Things We Do Not Love About B5 RPG (please get involved!)

[Dastari]

If you see it like that, that's fine. but combat in the B5 show is nothing like combat in D&D. People get hurt and killed way more easily.

See, I'm trying to figure out where that impression ever came from. We don't actually see it but we know Marcus took out at least 30 men in a bar during the episode where Delenn is kidnapped and he barely has a scratch on him. I also can't think of a single main character who dies in combat.

Stracynski has said many times that he used Lord of the Rings as one of major sources of inspiration for the series and I think that even some of the Mongoose Publishing writers would like to see more of that epic feel to B5. Certainly the people who mention that there are evil creatures lurking beneath Nar'Shal that the Dur'Nara help to keep at bay must be thinking of more of a D&D style campaign. I just wish that they'd give us more of a description of what is lurking down there or at least some examples so that GMs can still make up their own stuff but also have a base to work from.

So, out of curiosity, am I the only person who doesn't structure their Babylon 5 campaigns around League sessions and just have everyone voting on political stuff or just trying to run a business and watching fluctuations in the galactic market?

Are there no holy crusades against the forces of darkness? No combat against beings that legends are made of while telling them to "get the hell out of our galaxy"?

So am I the only one playing things that way. What sort of campaigns does everyone run?

 

[Dastari]

Dastari, if you think the HP is too low, just use the DnD rules. give all classes with 1 HP/lvl = 1d6 HP/lvl, 2 HP/lvl = 1d8 HP/lvl and 3 HP/lvl = 1d10 HP/lvl and then add CON-bonus to that, for each lvl.
Then you should be able to run a more combat oriented game.

It's funny because this is the one issue that everyone that I'm gaming with says that they don't like about B5, yet here it is lauded as a grand achievement or even derided by one guy for not being strict enough.

Either way, I have already thought about that and I could set the constitution rules back to the way that they are in D&D, but I'm still worried about unbalancing the game. Before games are released theoretically there are loads of tests on them and with B5 using DV and DR I'm not sure if it would still be fair if I gave people loads of hit points. If I change everything back to D&D it loses any unique flair that the game might have.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the DV and DR because I always felt that AC is D&D was dumb. Armor keeps you from feeling the full effect of a hit it doesn't mean how well you dodge. DV and DR are much more realistic.

Has anyone else ever increased the hit points or am I really the only guy talking about this? If you have, do you feel that DV and DR are a good substitute for AC or does the DR unbalance things to much in the players favor?

 

[Balance]

New guy on the forum! I've read this thread and have a few thoughts:

I own the core B5 RPG book and the 2nd season book. I'd like to buy more, but it's hard to justify for game I'm not actively running, so...

Anyway, and I apologize if these ideas are covered by several of the follow-ups, but I can think of a few things I'd like to see in a new edition:

First, as B5 and the tweaked engine is not intended for 'dungeon crawl' style combat, as many tips as possible for building more 'social' challenges and such would be appreciated. Maybe use sidebars to illustrate how the skill mechanics, aided by good roleplaying, can be used to overcome challenges. Basically, provide toolkit value.

I'd be happy to see the 1st season Episode Guide spun off for this if necessary. Establishing Babylon 5's basic setting is pretty complex even without covering a season of episodes.

As others have said, there's some food ideas that can be (legitimately) borrowed from the SWd20 RPG (which I'm currently running) as well as some mistakes to avoid. Their combat system has a good base concept of 'stations' each manned by a crewmember. Although it might break down for capital ships, it works pretty well, but could be defined and improved on.

As for psychics, I wonder what kind of revision is added in the Psi-Core book and others. As I can see in the main book, playing a psychic is a massive decision and i doesn't quite seem worth it. There's definite 'bands' of Psycher-hood, and I wonder if the canon on the subject should be checked to see if minor tweaks (say, a feat to raise P rating 1 point that can only be taken every five levels or so) would allow it to be more interesting.

Another Star Wars idea I like is the Ultimates books they were doing. A lot of these used a mix of new, old, and revised material, and collected everything into one spot. For example, the Ultimate Aliens Guide has something like 100+ races. While not necessary for Babylon 5 (which just doesn't have that many around!) big collections may make sense for other topics, like equipment, or classes. It might also be a good opportunity to trim done things like prestige classes where multiple similar classes might exist.

basically, the first edition was written with a season-by-season POV. Should a new edition be written looking back?

 

[Dastari]

New guy on the forum! I've read this thread and have a few thoughts:

Greetings fellow newbie! I'm having a lot of fun on this group and learning why the rules are the way that they are and what other people's thoughts are on the games.

First, as B5 and the tweaked engine is not intended for 'dungeon crawl' style combat, as many tips as possible for building more 'social' challenges and such would be appreciated. Maybe use sidebars to illustrate how the skill mechanics, aided by good roleplaying, can be used to overcome challenges. Basically, provide toolkit value.:

This is something that I'd like as well. I purchased the D&D Dungeon Master's Guide as well as the Player's Handbook and in many ways this is a helpful tool. However, it would be nice if Mongoose would publish a B5 specific GM's guide with advice on how to create B5 scenarios and how best to handle experience awards as well other things like creating NPCs and epic character progression and perhaps even tips to integrating the more powerful PC classes such as Technomage, Ranger, and Telepath in with the other classes without the other players feeling that those types dominate the game.

As for psychics, I wonder what kind of revision is added in the Psi-Core book and others. As I can see in the main book, playing a psychic is a massive decision and i doesn't quite seem worth it. There's definite 'bands' of Psycher-hood, and I wonder if the canon on the subject should be checked to see if minor tweaks (say, a feat to raise P rating 1 point that can only be taken every five levels or so) would allow it to be more interesting.

The problem with that is that they are trying to stay within the canon and that is a decision that I will always agree with them on. It is stated many times in the show that you are born with a P-rating and there is no way that you can ever increase it. Now, I think that the Psi-Experiment prestige class does in fact increase its P-rating but that is only a very extraordinary circumstance and is supported in canon. Personally, if I was a player I'd pick a P1 telepath on purpose because you get more HP and skill points even though you only have a few telepathic abilities that you can use. I personally think that would be the best possible class choice to give you the max options, so I'm not sure that a high P-rating is always best anyhow.

Another Star Wars idea I like is the Ultimates books they were doing. A lot of these used a mix of new, old, and revised material, and collected everything into one spot. For example, the Ultimate Aliens Guide has something like 100+ races. While not necessary for Babylon 5 (which just doesn't have that many around!) big collections may make sense for other topics, like equipment, or classes. It might also be a good opportunity to trim done things like prestige classes where multiple similar classes might exist.

I so agree with you on this. Although I disagree with you about the Ultimate Aliens Guide. I really think that B5 could use this. If people don't want a detailed synopsis on every race that's fine but there have probably been at least 100 different races portrayed on B5 over the years and give all of them playable stats so that even if we don't know everything about them, we can play them (much like we can with the Dilgar now). This would be especially nice so that we could finally get some races in there of a size other than medium. Any other guide that collects material on a similar subject matter would also be good though, IMHO.

basically, the first edition was written with a season-by-season POV. Should a new edition be written looking back?

Yes, I really think that we ought to just leave the season guides as they are and that a new Babylon 5 Players Guide should just include more rules, classes, ships, skills, feats, and whatever other "rules" type stuff that they can collect into one book. Then they can start collecting everything that they didn't put in that book into various Ultimate Guides as you've already mentioned.

 

[Balance]

New guy on the forum! I've read this thread and have a few thoughts:

Greetings fellow newbie! I'm having a lot of fun on this group and learning why the rules are the way that they are and what other people's thoughts are on the games.

Thanks! I;ma ctually trying to get into the miniatures game, but I'd love to consider the B5 RPG for future RPG campaigns my friends might play. my biggest problem, so far, is that I just can't find a good campaign basis that fits my desire to fit into canon and my prospective player's style of play. Note that I haven't picked up the story-arc campaign.

(rambling about looking for 'toolkit value' and rules on 'social challenges')

This is something that I'd like as well. I purchased the D&D Dungeon Master's Guide as well as the Player's Handbook and in many ways this is a helpful tool. However, it would be nice if Mongoose would publish a B5 specific GM's guide with advice on how to create B5 scenarios and how best to handle experience awards as well other things like creating NPCs and epic character progression and perhaps even tips to integrating the more powerful PC classes such as Technomage, Ranger, and Telepath in with the other classes without the other players feeling that those types dominate the game.

Dealing with the different 'power levels' of canon elements is always interesting... On the Star Wars d20 boards, for example, a common thread concerns how the the RPG version of the jedi is much weaker than the movies.

I definitely feel that Mongoose should look at the d20 Modern ruleset. I briefly played in a Darwin's World campaign, and there's some ideas from that that worked very well. The loose classes, perhaps combined with a series of feats to emulate various roles, might be a good model.

For example, d20 Modern has a set of base classes like "Fast Hero", "Smart Hero", and "Strong Hero". Each has a pretty basic advancement chart, including specialized feat trees for each class.

In the case of Darwin's World, a couple of choices are then made which provide a sort of 'background' for the character (with attached bonuses) and a profession. A simpler method would be to make a lot of the existing classes a monolithic feat perhaps called a "Profession" feat. For example, you might have an Officer feat that provides skill bonuses to a few officer specific skills and the salary and such that the class currently provides.

Note that Prestige Classes would still handle the truly specific instances, so Sheriden would have a few levels of a base class (Wise Hero, perhaps), with the Officer feat, which then allowed him access to the Earthforce Officer prestige class. Marcus, on the other hand, likely never took a Profession feat: As I remember his background he worked at a family-owned mining operation, but since he never defined himself by that job, I think it's safe to say he ended up hodling out until he qualified for the Ranger Prestige class.

Note that this approach might FUBAR backwards comaptability unacceptably.

Rambling about P-levels and other strangeness...

The problem with that is that they are trying to stay within the canon and that is a decision that I will always agree with them on. It is stated many times in the show that you are born with a P-rating and there is no way that you can ever increase it. Now, I think that the Psi-Experiment prestige class does in fact increase its P-rating but that is only a very extraordinary circumstance and is supported in canon. Personally, if I was a player I'd pick a P1 telepath on purpose because you get more HP and skill points even though you only have a few telepathic abilities that you can use. I personally think that would be the best possible class choice to give you the max options, so I'm not sure that a high P-rating is always best anyhow. [/quit]

Possibly... although, I would be curious if all psychics (including the non-humans, who have very different traditions) perform at their 'listed' P-level. Allowing small bumps could indicate the character was always a P-Whatever, but has been acting as a P-Whatever -1 due to improper training and lack of practice.

Either way, i think I'll shut up on this topic due to my lack of experience and that I think Mongoose knows it's a section that could use review.

I so agree with you on this. Although I disagree with you about the Ultimate Aliens Guide. I really think that B5 could use this. If people don't want a detailed synopsis on every race that's fine but there have probably been at least 100 different races portrayed on B5 over the years and give all of them playable stats so that even if we don't know everything about them, we can play them (much like we can with the Dilgar now). This would be especially nice so that we could finally get some races in there of a size other than medium. Any other guide that collects material on a similar subject matter would also be good though, IMHO.

If there's sufficient material, sure. I'd buy it (if I had the 'need' or spare cash lying around). Actually, considering the lower numbers of available species in the setting, I would hope that such a book could have room for a brief description, the usual d20 racial description, info on their home world, and one or two unique details such as equipment, a prestige class, or similar.

basically, the first edition was written with a season-by-season POV. Should a new edition be written looking back?

Yes, I really think that we ought to just leave the season guides as they are and that a new Babylon 5 Players Guide should just include more rules, classes, ships, skills, feats, and whatever other "rules" type stuff that they can collect into one book. Then they can start collecting everything that they didn't put in that book into various Ultimate Guides as you've already mentioned.

I think the important thing, whatever they do, is that they add more details to help set the stage. For example, in the Star Wars game I'm running, it's sometimes hard to improvise when I need to 'import' some element of real-world tech into the setting. I generally try to avoid describing tech, but saying simple terms like 'pencil' and 'manila folder' ruin the feeling of immersion.

 

[lastbesthope]

If you see it like that, that's fine. but combat in the B5 show is nothing like combat in D&D. People get hurt and killed way more easily.

See, I'm trying to figure out where that impression ever came from. We don't actually see it but we know Marcus took out at least 30 men in a bar during the episode where Delenn is kidnapped and he barely has a scratch on him. I also can't think of a single main character who dies in combat.

"Cermeonies of Light and Dark" Season 3 Ep 11. Marcus is a 9th level character, 3 of those levels in Anlashok Ranger, and is in what could be described as a beserker-esque rage. He's a well trained very well motivated fighter taking on a room of low level thugs, but mainly cos he has plot points on his side.

LBH

 

[Balance]

"Cermeonies of Light and Dark" Season 3 Ep 11. Marcus is a 9th level character, 3 of those levels in Anlashok Ranger, and is in what could be described as a beserker-esque rage. He's a well trained very well motivated fighter taking on a room of low level thugs, but mainly cos he has plot points on his side.

Additionally, an unwritten rule of B5 seems to be that things get much more lethal when a PPG is drawn. Marcus was in a bar-brawl, at least at first, and most of the opponents probably didn't want to escalate things by using lethal force.

As such, for the first few opponents he was definitely giving and receiving subdual damage. A few might have used knives or other weapons, but Marcus certainly has feats to aid him with disarming enemies and the like. After all, it's definitely in the ranger job description to leave enemies in a state to be interrogated...

That's what the low HP means to me. I kinda wish there was a more 'active' part to defense, but combat n B5 seems aimed at characters going down with a few hits.

Another good idea included in the d20 Modern rules is action dice, which'll allow player characters to be a bit more 'heroic' within the constraints of the game without requiring additional levels, etc.

 

[Balance]

Additionally, an unwritten rule of B5 seems to be that things get much more lethal when a PPG is drawn. Marcus was in a bar-brawl, at least at first, and most of the opponents probably didn't want to escalate things by using lethal force.

If I may quote myself, I think that's a big point of B5 as an RPG versus a lot of other settings. For characters, guns should usually be a last resort. Drawing a firearm means someone is going to die.

Additionally, the consequences are there. It's not a setting where killing someone is likely to be justified. You kill someone, unless you're part of the military, police, or have a really good reason, you become a criminal. Getting through security, or even buying stuff, becomes difficult. Your life is over, albeit not as permanently as the guy left cooling on a slab.

That's important.

I'd love to see more information and wisdom about how to run a game like that, as I think many gamers are used to very different types of games.

 

[Dastari]

Additionally, the consequences are there. It's not a setting where killing someone is likely to be justified. You kill someone, unless you're part of the military, police, or have a really good reason, you become a criminal. Getting through security, or even buying stuff, becomes difficult. Your life is over, albeit not as permanently as the guy left cooling on a slab.

That's important.

This is the part that I'm kind of surprised about, that most people are setting the game in or around the station in which point your idea is true. However, there's a huge part of the series cannon about trying to destroy the forces of darkness that want to plunge the galaxy into eternal chaos or fighting a war against the gods that would have us just sit down and obey their every whim. To me, you need a more epic style of character to fight the epic style of threat and so if the command staff of B5 really are at the character levels described in the various season guides then I'd expect them to have more HP. It also means that if your foes are these types of creatures then killing and combat really isn't the last resort because they'll kill you before you have the chance to get preachy to them.

I like the fact that the B5 books stress using the charasmatic skills more. However, as a GM I've always had a problem with the charisma based stats because I feel that those are the stats that the players should actually "act out" instead of just rolling for. I don't know, to me it's cool to have the diplomacy and everything in there but combat and action are part of what make B5 the TV show cool and I think that should be stressed more in the game.

 

[Serenn]

ok.. where to start.. Babylon 5 is, and always will be a Political RPG, it is how the game works.. minor scuffles are your combat, or inside the cockpit of a fighter.. so at the end of the day, mental stats are by far and away the most important, despite awfull roles i think Serenn embodies that nicely, he isn't as charismatic as Delen, but already i am almost on par with her as a diplomat, you have to remember, this game tries to talk its way out of combat unless you are whooping it on some pirates.. again, this puts you in the cockpit of a figter or bigger, hand to hand combat is all about honour, and is nearly ALWAYS to the death... fighting is realistic, if i were to hit LBH over the head with a Denbok i could kill him in one hit, fully realistic, i think they have captured the realism to the universe nicely, if you want suilly hit points.. be a shadow or a vorlon, pain makes you grow.. it makes you learn, and it makes you understand!

 

[lastbesthope]

if i were to hit LBH over the head with a Denbok i could kill him in one hit

If it's all the same, I'd really rather you didn't :lol:

LBH

 

[Serenn]

i'll only do it if you make another drool puddle infront of Claudia! although.. Ray belching in her face is far more dangerouse than a Denbok!

 

[Exeter]

Firstly I'd like to say there are a huge amount of things I think the guys and gals at mongoose got right with Bab 5 and it's very rare for a RP product to be flawless in its first edition that's why XX editions are usually needed (not for more money, honest guv )
Still of the occasional misteps and one or two z'ha dum size chasms that the mongoose team seemed to have jumped down (whether at the behest of the vorlon or not) these are the few i'd like to see suggestions i'd like to see considered for 2nd ed.
1) P rating should apply both for attack and DEFENCE. It even states in the psi corp book that P rating is arrived at because a p2 can read the mind of a p1, p3 a p2 ad infinitum. This by its very definition means that a P6 can block a P5, a P12 can block a P8. However in the rules a P5 stands as much chance of breaking down the defences of a p1 as he does a p12 indeed he stands less chance because a p1 will always be able to put points into telepathy as he has so many skill points to spread around which will result on average in better mind shield result. Of course higher P ratings have a few more options available for blocking ( jamming etc ) but a basic defensive block is not better for a higher P rating then a low P rating. I'm not suggesting a straight p12 beats p11 I tend to think that a 10th level p10 can beat a 4th level p12's mental defences overall but in an even match the higher p rating wins. ( i tended to equate 2 telepath levels to 1 p rating so if someones p rating doubled + telepath levels is greater then their opponents p rating doubled + telepath level {ie a lvl 10 p10 = 30points lvl 4 p12 = 28 points} then they stand a chance of breaking there telepathic defences. They still get there will save afterwards and the two are entirely seperate so a telepath get his telepathic defences and then his will save but the two don't affect each other. There is some additional mechanical twiddly bits how long a teep could do this but i'm just giving you my general thoughts and feeling about telepathic attack and defence and their relation to level not rewriting the system for you (unless you want to put me on the pay roll ah who am i kiding i'd rewrite bab 5 rules for free). Anyway i waffled long enough on this subject now for something completely different....
2) why a will save at all (oh all right i lied, but i promise much shorter) in the series people have almost no defence against telepathy, even against mid range teeps such as early lyta and talia. Thats why telepaths are so feared it's very rare that mundanes can last more then a few seconds resisting a telepathic scan and i can't think of many examples in the series. Only those mundanes specifically trained in defensive blocks can do it and even then not for long against anyone who's much good. I understand why the will save exists and everybody stands some chance of blocking i just think the chance of telepathic success / failure is a little higher then i would like. (a will save is the obvious choice but just seems a little random for the teep but then i don't know quite what i'd put in place so that players of non teeps didn't feel cheated) mind you the mundanes in the b5 universe do feel cheated and thats why there's so much hate crime against telepaths because there is no real defence.
3) far more flexibility in classes and more emphasis on social and unique abilities for classes. i have expanded on this a bit in another thread bt i would like to see social characters getting more chances to shine mechanically ( i know how difficult it is to write social mechanics and they should never be a substitute for role-playing but lots of other d20 products - well a few - have really impressed me but not making social classes feel cheated and allowing them a real impact on the game, with information gathering resource aquiring and other useful little tricks that the gun bunnies don't do. ) As a said a game of thrones and star wars are two that spring to mind for good non combat class options but i do think particularly the agent class feels very much like a cut down rogue and not what the class description claims it to be. Having said that garibaldi should have a level in agent he is an uber hacker after all.

 

[LoneStranger]

Actually one thing that dawned on me that would help out B5 a lot would be to increase skill points across the board. B5 is set up as a game where you're supposed to be able to think your way out of situations so it would make sense to let characters have the skill points they need to do it. Especially if you watch the characters in the series all of them seem to have some type of obscure knowledge or something that no one else knows about, plus they seem to be well rounded in the show (or they have nice borders in some cases, right LBH?).

It doesn't have to be a huge increase, but it should be consistent.

 

[lastbesthope]

(or they have nice borders in some cases, right LBH?).

Very nice, even if they are expanding :lol:

LBH

 

[Ranger66]

Nope - d20/OGL wouldn't be anywhere near my first choice either, but I suspect it's one thing that isn't up for change.

If they did do a totally new system over OGL then all the books we own wouldn't be compatible.

I think the OGL is a great move as the biggest thing I didn't like was not having everything in one core book. I love the new Starship Troopers for being self contained.

 

[lastbesthope]

Well IF they went to an entirely new system they would need to write an extensive conversion piece on how to keep the old stuff compatible.

IIRC, B5 was the last RPG that Mongoose brought out that was under the d20 logo, every new line since (SST, Wars, Conan, Jeremiah, Infernum, Paranoia) has been OGL or it's own system, but no d20.

LBH