The Premises of Traveller: 2. Space Travel is Unpleasant and Most Do Not Do It
- Thread starter Spirit of 1977
- Start date
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
How much is an ordinary citizen of the Imperium willing to pay to junket to the next solar system?
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
GabrielGABFonseca
Cosmic Mongoose
A bit tangential, and not wishing to detract from the thread's main, well... thread:
As I familiarised myself with Traveller I kept seeing references to how the Third Imperium controls "eleven thousand worlds", but once I started doing my data
Fast forward to the latter half of last year, and I find out upon reading The Travellers' Digest 10, I see an article with the unassuming title "Statistics From the Second Imperial Grand Survey" (Page 42), and it states the following:
It then goes on to provide a statistical breakdown of the average population of each of the Imperium's 27 sectors, number of systems, number of double systems, and their fraction on each sector. There's even a graph!
Anyway, I hadn't seen this concept mentioned or revisited until The Deep and the Dark came out this- wait, no, it was December last year wasn't it? But in it, there are a couple of systems that are explicitly stated to have more than one "world" to it, such as Gralyn (Reaver's Deep 1735) and its moon of Askoapoy. There's another one too, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was, and after manually transcribing from the Travellers' Digest, I'm feeling a wee bit lazy to go and look lol
But point is, it's a really interesting concept that I feel has sadly been underused, but that (hopefully) seems to be changing!
Spirit of 1977
Cosmic Mongoose
This. There is a lot of potential in Traveller for intrasystem adventuring that has never been fully exploited. The CT Book 6 rules for system generation (which carried over into MegaT) allowed for pentary star systems akin to the Firefly 'Verse. Place a gas giant in each Habitable Zone (HZ) and you could have dozens of habitable satellites, enough for an entire campaign that never leaves the system. I have an entire ruleset of Hard Science (TL 8) Traveller that caters to this style of play using the MegaT Hard Times supplement. Yes, more of this.
I do extensive "system development" in my campaign. Most systems have mining outposts, research stations, and other such things all over the place (unless they are outside of normal space lanes and too low tech to have their own space program). A good number of systems are either distant binaries with worlds around both suns or have full fledged colonies on less habitable worlds around the primary star.
They may or may not be as developed as the Sol system in settings like the Expanse or Eclipse Phase, but I don't have folks importing raw materials from other star systems when they can get them from their own. It also makes in system traffic significantly greater, so the risks and rewards of piracy, smuggling, and other fun stuff are proportionately greater.
They may or may not be as developed as the Sol system in settings like the Expanse or Eclipse Phase, but I don't have folks importing raw materials from other star systems when they can get them from their own. It also makes in system traffic significantly greater, so the risks and rewards of piracy, smuggling, and other fun stuff are proportionately greater.
That's why I said "unless they are outside the normal spaces AND don't have their own tech". There are worlds in the reaches and other unincorporated spaces that are not visited enough that they'd have the opportunity to purchase and maintain tech that they can't produce themselves. You might not have any actually isolated worlds that are hardly ever visited in your campaign, in which case that wouldn't apply.
Sure. If you have enough traffic that someone actually brings entire space stations and other materials needed to have settlements/facilities on other planets for you to buy. And returns often enough that they are viable keep supplied. It's not like someone could have just shown up in the 1920s and sold us a prefab Martian colony kit and we'd've been able to do anything with it. If we have enough free traders visiting that supplying the the base from said interstellar visitors was reliable, sure.
Satellites would be easier for a free trader to bring in, but I'm not sure what orbital satellites have to do with having "mining outposts, research stations, and such" all over the star system. And even satellites are probably more of a special order than something a free trader is going to just show up with.
Any system with regular interstellar contact is going to have a very non specific "Tech level" because of imports. And almost all planets would have been originally TL 10+ when first founded. Like 1 or 2% of the worlds of the Imperium have native (or ancients transplanted) species? And a good chunk of them didn't develop advanced tech on their own, because of space travellers stopping by with a Makidkarun catalogue.
But if you have a system like Goria in the Outrim Void that is Jump 3 from anywhere that isn't interdicted, it probably isn't getting enough visitors to support having asteroid mining stations that its native tech can't sustain. Of course, TL is fuzzy and you could say that they actually do have interplanetary craft capability even if their overall TL is 7. Or they bought spaceships to go with their space stations from the Imperium, which is only 8 parsecs away and has the J3/J4 capability to have actually reached Goria.
One of the nice things about sci fi is you can almost always justify anything that isn't literally impossible with physical laws and sometimes even then.
Satellites would be easier for a free trader to bring in, but I'm not sure what orbital satellites have to do with having "mining outposts, research stations, and such" all over the star system. And even satellites are probably more of a special order than something a free trader is going to just show up with.
Any system with regular interstellar contact is going to have a very non specific "Tech level" because of imports. And almost all planets would have been originally TL 10+ when first founded. Like 1 or 2% of the worlds of the Imperium have native (or ancients transplanted) species? And a good chunk of them didn't develop advanced tech on their own, because of space travellers stopping by with a Makidkarun catalogue.
But if you have a system like Goria in the Outrim Void that is Jump 3 from anywhere that isn't interdicted, it probably isn't getting enough visitors to support having asteroid mining stations that its native tech can't sustain. Of course, TL is fuzzy and you could say that they actually do have interplanetary craft capability even if their overall TL is 7. Or they bought spaceships to go with their space stations from the Imperium, which is only 8 parsecs away and has the J3/J4 capability to have actually reached Goria.
One of the nice things about sci fi is you can almost always justify anything that isn't literally impossible with physical laws and sometimes even then.
MasterGwydion
Cosmic Mongoose
You have to think less "Age of Sail" and think more like ships with coal and oil-fired boilers. They can't go straight from New York to Shanghai. They have to make innumerable stops in between to refuel and take of fresh perishable supplies.
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
Communication-wise, steam ships with messages, at least to the most 'cosmopolitan' destinations lasted barely long than the Poni Pony Express and became obsolete for the same reason: telegraph (all within a few years, plus or minus of the Carrington Event which is neither here nor there - but then). Age of Sail works if you make it more like wilderness refueling... but it's not a perfect analogy. And if you run out of lime juice et. al. in between stops, there's always scurvy - that would technically apply to all types of long voyages.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
I think we like harping on the Pony Express meme, because it would be the last prominent example amplified by Hollywood.
As I recall, the Incas and the Greek city states preferred runners, and I think someone had a go at seeing which would be faster, horse or human, for delivering messages over a vast network.
As I recall, the Incas and the Greek city states preferred runners, and I think someone had a go at seeing which would be faster, horse or human, for delivering messages over a vast network.
Spirit of 1977
Cosmic Mongoose
In what situations would a human be superior to horses? Horse impassible terrain? Is there an endurance issue? I realize horses cannot gallop for lengthy periods, but trot & canter?
Spirit of 1977
Cosmic Mongoose
I think the best historical analogy for jump drive is simply "no telegraph, only non-powered travel". Note that Book 1 said the 18th century. We don't get practical steam travel until the very late 18th century. So I suspect Miller means stagecoaches and Age of Sail. Whether by land or water, the question is whether or not there is any optimization for communication and passengers. Even if there is (packet boats, pony express), it's not the majority of travel, which is commercial shipping. Sounds a lot like Traveller to me.
Spirit of 1977
Cosmic Mongoose
I also think we need to dispense with the cruise ship analogy. Real cruise ships are potentially fun in a way starships can never be. I just did some quick analysis (I am NOT a cruise ship person, to be clear). A typical 7-day cruise will stop at 4-7 ports of call, versus 0 in jumpspace. When is the last time you took a 7 day trip where you never left your vehicle? When I was very young, I took a 3-day train trip and it was REALLY boring!
Further, modern large cruise ships are at least 10000 D-tons (13.5 kl). A can't speak to Mongoose, but in CT the largest published liner I can find is the FASA Star Class Merchant Liner at 1000 D-tons, which has 71 staterooms and 50 low berths. Say we go to 15000 D-tons and just scale up, giving us 1065 staterooms and 750 low berth (and at least MCr5000). An equivalent cruise ship would have 4-6x as many passengers and a huge number of entertainments that a CT starship would never have. Now we could add in lots of modern features to give passengers more food and entertainment options. But even with this, we need to get passengers to part with Cr8000 at least to go to some nearby world just to be entertained for a week? And then pay the same to get back? It's hard to see how that is viable except in very special situation (e.g., a pleasure planet in range).
No, starship travel in Traveller is primarily about getting somewhere, which is not what cruise ships are about.
Further, modern large cruise ships are at least 10000 D-tons (13.5 kl). A can't speak to Mongoose, but in CT the largest published liner I can find is the FASA Star Class Merchant Liner at 1000 D-tons, which has 71 staterooms and 50 low berths. Say we go to 15000 D-tons and just scale up, giving us 1065 staterooms and 750 low berth (and at least MCr5000). An equivalent cruise ship would have 4-6x as many passengers and a huge number of entertainments that a CT starship would never have. Now we could add in lots of modern features to give passengers more food and entertainment options. But even with this, we need to get passengers to part with Cr8000 at least to go to some nearby world just to be entertained for a week? And then pay the same to get back? It's hard to see how that is viable except in very special situation (e.g., a pleasure planet in range).
No, starship travel in Traveller is primarily about getting somewhere, which is not what cruise ships are about.
I have done exactly one cruise, Vancouver up to Alaska and back with several stops along the way. I can't say I was a big fan.
My mother has done many cruises. She enjoys them. She took a cruise from San Francisco to Hawaii and back. You depart San Francisco at 4pm the first day. You then spend four full days at sea, arriving in Maui at 10am on the sixth day. You spend days 6, 7, 8 and 9 travelling around the Hawaiian islands doing excursions and then spend four days sailing back. My mom took this trip. She said even as a veteran cruiser, on a very large cruise ship with plenty of amenities, she said that four days at sea on the way there and four days at sea on the way back was long. If you are the type of person who just wants to put their feet up and read a book, it is fine. But for most people, the activities on the boat are very limited.
Now, imagine a jump capable liner. 25% common space seems pretty puny. I think to keep people happy and comfortable, you are going to be looking at a lot more common spaces with theatres, live shows, sports activities (like gyms), pools, casinos, shopping plazas, etc. All those amenities will require a lot more crew. Most modern cruise ships have one crew member for every 2-3 guests.
A better analogy are ocean liners. The RMS Lusitania could cross the Atlantic in just slightly over five days. She carried 552 first class, 460 second class, 1,186 third class; 2,198 total passengers with a crew of 850.
The RMS Lusitania had a Gross Register Tonnage of 31,550 Tons = a ship's total internal volume expressed in "register tons", each of which is equal to 100 cubic feet (2.83 m3). So, 31,550 x 2.83 = 89,286.5 m3 / 13.5 = 6,614 dTons.
- Kerry
My mother has done many cruises. She enjoys them. She took a cruise from San Francisco to Hawaii and back. You depart San Francisco at 4pm the first day. You then spend four full days at sea, arriving in Maui at 10am on the sixth day. You spend days 6, 7, 8 and 9 travelling around the Hawaiian islands doing excursions and then spend four days sailing back. My mom took this trip. She said even as a veteran cruiser, on a very large cruise ship with plenty of amenities, she said that four days at sea on the way there and four days at sea on the way back was long. If you are the type of person who just wants to put their feet up and read a book, it is fine. But for most people, the activities on the boat are very limited.
Now, imagine a jump capable liner. 25% common space seems pretty puny. I think to keep people happy and comfortable, you are going to be looking at a lot more common spaces with theatres, live shows, sports activities (like gyms), pools, casinos, shopping plazas, etc. All those amenities will require a lot more crew. Most modern cruise ships have one crew member for every 2-3 guests.
A better analogy are ocean liners. The RMS Lusitania could cross the Atlantic in just slightly over five days. She carried 552 first class, 460 second class, 1,186 third class; 2,198 total passengers with a crew of 850.
The RMS Lusitania had a Gross Register Tonnage of 31,550 Tons = a ship's total internal volume expressed in "register tons", each of which is equal to 100 cubic feet (2.83 m3). So, 31,550 x 2.83 = 89,286.5 m3 / 13.5 = 6,614 dTons.
- Kerry
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
We're probably looking at the Silk Road, if you want an analogy.
WHULorigan
Cosmic Mongoose
Better to think of the analogy as
- Interstellar = 18th Century (Age of Sail)
- In-system/Interplanetary = 19th Century (Steam & Telegraph)
