Spirit of 1977
Cosmic Mongoose
I think yours is a majority modern position. The SF that influenced Traveller is 50-60's, a grittier time. I like the grit, but understand those who want a shinier setting.
The Premises of Traveller: 2. Space Travel is Unpleasant and Most Do Not Do It
- Thread starter Spirit of 1977
- Start date
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
I'm pretty sure I could set up ORIONAEROSPACE, if I wanted to.
But within Traveller physics, that would be regional hub and spoke routes, with inter regional connections.
But within Traveller physics, that would be regional hub and spoke routes, with inter regional connections.
This is true, but consider that a subsidized liner carries 45 passengers. A 747 carries between 400 and 600. Regular service by starliners and interstellar travel is rare are not incompatible statements.
When I look at the Traveller materials, I keep in mind that they are designed to answer player facing questions rather than describe the economics of the Imperium or whatever. So passenger pricing and availability is aimed answering two question sets: 1) If I walk up to the starport counter on Porozlo and say "put me on the next ship to Rhylanor", what will it cost, what will the ship likely be, and when will there be a ship? 2) If I show up with my free trader and say "8 spaces leaving for Rhylanor in 3 days!", how many takers will I get and what will they pay?
This doesn't give us much of a broad picture, but we do have a few facts to my mind. First, tramp freighters find it worthwhile to dedicate significant tonnage and crew to carrying passengers. Second, subsidized liners are a standard ship type.
From this, I draw the conclusion that most worlds have a certain amount of demand for interstellar travel, but not enough routine demand to get a regular scheduled liner from a shipping corporation to visit. Which is why large numbers of worlds find it worthwhile to subsidize a small liner to visit regularly and tramp freighters can find enough passengers to justify the loss of cargo space.
Will there be large passenger liners running regularly between High pop worlds? Sure. Are there very many places where high pop worlds are actually within a few parsecs of each other? Not really in the sort of frontier-ish environments that the Traveller subsector system is set to generate by default.
Does this mean you can't have lots of space travel and liners going hither and thither? Of course not. I just think that for backwaters like the Marches, it's not likely from the info we are given.
This doesn't give us much of a broad picture, but we do have a few facts to my mind. First, tramp freighters find it worthwhile to dedicate significant tonnage and crew to carrying passengers. Second, subsidized liners are a standard ship type.
From this, I draw the conclusion that most worlds have a certain amount of demand for interstellar travel, but not enough routine demand to get a regular scheduled liner from a shipping corporation to visit. Which is why large numbers of worlds find it worthwhile to subsidize a small liner to visit regularly and tramp freighters can find enough passengers to justify the loss of cargo space.
Will there be large passenger liners running regularly between High pop worlds? Sure. Are there very many places where high pop worlds are actually within a few parsecs of each other? Not really in the sort of frontier-ish environments that the Traveller subsector system is set to generate by default.
Does this mean you can't have lots of space travel and liners going hither and thither? Of course not. I just think that for backwaters like the Marches, it's not likely from the info we are given.
Also, even if you have a thousand passengers starting a round trip from Rhylanor to Porozlo every week, that's a tiny number. There are 28 Billion people between those two worlds.
A mid sized Carnival Cruise Liner has 3000 people on it. 190,000 passengers move through O'Hare airport in a typical day.
So part of this discussion is going to come down to what "a lot" means to you.
A mid sized Carnival Cruise Liner has 3000 people on it. 190,000 passengers move through O'Hare airport in a typical day.
So part of this discussion is going to come down to what "a lot" means to you.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
GT Far Trader has it to 25 million passengers per year, half a million a week, three thousand an hour...
Rhylanor starport handles about 85 million passengers per year, ten thousand an hour.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
You don't have to subsidize something, either by direct payments or tax benefits, if others are willing to do it voluntarily.
Unless, you have powerful and influential lobbyists.
Unless, you have powerful and influential lobbyists.
Yeah, the GURPS version of Charted Space has dramatically more interstellar shipping than any other version.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
I don't think any other edition has really tried to enumerate large scale trade.
TTB, p9 said
That might be somewhat optimistic with the salaries, passage prices, and times as presented, but what do I know?
Well, the Importance rating of systems in T5 and in MgT2e's World Builder's Handbook discusses shipping volumes. Rhylanor per the WBH handles about 50,000 ships a year. Of various sizes. So to have that kind of passenger volume, that's an average of 1700 passengers per ship
And the general encounter density doesn't support the kinds of massive trade of the GURPS version. There's nothing wrong with that kind of trade volume. But the infrastructure of ports is really subpar if that's how much shipping is going on. Way too many D and E ports on the mains, imho.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
Importance in T5 is a very blunt tool for estimating trade...Well, the Importance rating of systems in T5 and in MgT2e's World Builder's Handbook discusses shipping volumes. Rhylanor per the WBH handles about 50,000 ships a year. Of various sizes. So to have that kind of passenger volume, that's an average of 1700 passengers per ship
I haven't looked at the new WBH.
1700 passengers per ship isn't very much if millions are actually transported. Larger ships (~10000+ Dt) are more economical.
J-3 or J-4 is the most economical way of transporting large cargoes large distances by cost. There will be a lot of fly-over worlds. According to GT (I think realistically) the vast majority of trade occurs between the hi-pop worlds, the rest of worlds will at best be waystations.
I think the encounter systems more or less work in the fly-over zones where most adventuring is done. The large worlds are far to well-regulated...
As I said in an earlier thread on economics, you can build in any sort of assumptions you want. There is essentially zero information available. If you want millions of people travelling and massive 1000 passenger Jump 4 liners going hither and thither by the dozens, nothing is going to stop you.
There's also nothing in the materials (except GURPS Far Trader) to suggest that is the case, so if you want to go with idea of mains actually meaning something and shipping being scarcer, the world still works just fine, too.
There's also nothing in the materials (except GURPS Far Trader) to suggest that is the case, so if you want to go with idea of mains actually meaning something and shipping being scarcer, the world still works just fine, too.
Even today where travel is fairly easy some 80% of people never travel beyond their local area. Most of the people that travel either do it for work or it’s a once in a lifetime thing. There actually a certain psychological aspect to the reluctance to travel, part of it is the natural fear of the unknown.
I don't think the economics of water travel and the economics of jump travel are particularly comparable. But that's not a particularly profitable discussion, because we don't actually have more than vague suggestions of what the actual economics of jump travel are beyond the tramp/spot market. And, of course, some of that depends on what version of the rules. GURPS and Mongoose Traveller make high jump rating ships more profitable than they were in earlier editions that were used when the Marches were created.
And, sure, you can put in all kinds of infrastructure that isn't anywhere in any published material. I certainly do, though nowhere near enough to support the GURPS numbers. You can easily say "That class D starport is only for the public, there's a corporate owned high port for oilers and replenishment ships to handle the tens of thousands of tons that are passing through this system daily without going near the planet"
And, sure, you can put in all kinds of infrastructure that isn't anywhere in any published material. I certainly do, though nowhere near enough to support the GURPS numbers. You can easily say "That class D starport is only for the public, there's a corporate owned high port for oilers and replenishment ships to handle the tens of thousands of tons that are passing through this system daily without going near the planet"
MasterGwydion
Cosmic Mongoose
I live on a small island of about 2,000 people in the Caribbean. I haven't left this tiny island in about 5 years. Back when I did travel, I made it to about half of the States in the US, plus Canada, Honduras, the Caymans, and the Bahamas. All by plane. Never been on a cruise ship. Sailed around the world on navy ships, but never set foot ashore. So I can see people travelling a bit to some of the local systems, but actually travelling to a different subsector or sector would likely be something mostly only Travellers do.
Personally, I see ocean-going ships on Earth during the age of steam as the best analogue to the Traveller universe. There are no fast ways (airplanes) to get anywhere. If you want to go from Europe to America, you go to a big port and you take a ship from somewhere like Hamburg to somewhere like New York. There are a few big liners which would probably travel back and forth between profitable city (planet) pairs. If you wanted to get to a certain island in the Pacific, you might take a liner from Hamburg to Hong Kong, and then a tramp steamer that stopped at six other islands (planets) before it got to your destination. After your visit, you might wait weeks before the next tramp steamer came by take you back to "civilization." Did people travel around in those days, yes, but relatively few.
As an example, my great-grandfather served in the British Army. He was from Winchester and ended up travelling to India, Afghanistan and South Africa. He retired, volunteered for service in WWI, and then retired again. His wife, my great-grandmother never travelled more than 5 miles from the cottage where she was born. After WWI, my great-grandfather got a soldier's land grant in northern British Columbia, Canada. They packed up all their belongings, travelled to Portsmouth, boarded the SS Saxonia and sailed to Montreal. There, they took a three week train trip across Canada to northern BC. The settled the land and my great-grandmother never travelled more than 5 miles from that cottage. My great-grandfather was relatively well travelled (via his military career). My great-grandmother, not so much.
I agree, most people would be born, live and die on the same planet. There are those to whom travel is a great adventure and they would likely be the ones who got jobs where travel was part of the deal (military careers or things like merchants). I think these "Travellers" would be the distinct minority.
Think about your own friends and family, how many have travelled to other countries or continents? In the case of Europe, I am thinking of travelling outside of the area conveniently connected by trains. Myself (from Canada), I have travelled to Europe (two dozen times???), Middle East, Far East Asia, Caribbean, and Australia/New Zealand. I consider myself fairly well travelled. I still have not been to South America, Africa (except for Egypt which barely counts), or Antartica. That is only on my own "relatively" small world. The Third Imperium and other settled regions are huge by comparison.
- Kerry
As an example, my great-grandfather served in the British Army. He was from Winchester and ended up travelling to India, Afghanistan and South Africa. He retired, volunteered for service in WWI, and then retired again. His wife, my great-grandmother never travelled more than 5 miles from the cottage where she was born. After WWI, my great-grandfather got a soldier's land grant in northern British Columbia, Canada. They packed up all their belongings, travelled to Portsmouth, boarded the SS Saxonia and sailed to Montreal. There, they took a three week train trip across Canada to northern BC. The settled the land and my great-grandmother never travelled more than 5 miles from that cottage. My great-grandfather was relatively well travelled (via his military career). My great-grandmother, not so much.
I agree, most people would be born, live and die on the same planet. There are those to whom travel is a great adventure and they would likely be the ones who got jobs where travel was part of the deal (military careers or things like merchants). I think these "Travellers" would be the distinct minority.
Think about your own friends and family, how many have travelled to other countries or continents? In the case of Europe, I am thinking of travelling outside of the area conveniently connected by trains. Myself (from Canada), I have travelled to Europe (two dozen times???), Middle East, Far East Asia, Caribbean, and Australia/New Zealand. I consider myself fairly well travelled. I still have not been to South America, Africa (except for Egypt which barely counts), or Antartica. That is only on my own "relatively" small world. The Third Imperium and other settled regions are huge by comparison.
- Kerry
CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
Ook... though my mental model is 'steamships aren't here yet (and never will be); the telegraph isn't here yet (and never will be); HRH Victoria is Queen; the Spinward Marches is the Raj; the Trojan Reach is Afghanistan; the Zhodani are Russia; the Solomani are the rebellious colonies who are too much trouble to subdue so we just sort of let it go'. And yes, I know all the anachronisms and geopolitical nonsense that entails.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Experience tells me that if you have relatives scattered around, you're more likely to go intercontinental.
Spirit of 1977
Cosmic Mongoose
This is certainly what Miller had in mind. Second sentence of 1977 Book 1:
"Nonetheless, communication will be reduced to the level of the 18th Century, reduced to the speed of transportation."
So there you go.
My problem with analogies with sea travel is that you can make ships that just go directly from Paris to NY in the age of Sail or Shanghai to Rotterdam in the present day. You don't have to stop anywhere.
You can't do that with Jump drives. There are a few places (like Rhylanor/Porozlo) where hi pop worlds are close to each other. But in most cases (especially in the frontiers like the Spinward Marches), any hi pop to hi pop run is going to be multiple jumps even if you are jump 4. Of course, you can create refueling stations independent of the starport for these "transit" vehicles to bypass the intermediary ports. But that's infrastructure not in evidence in published material.
The published material, especially the older material, does make it clear that jump 1 and jump 2 mains are the drivers of commerce, with Jump 3 and Jump 4 gaps considered a pretty significant hindrance. Part of that is that the 'default commercial tech' of the Imperium is usually given as TL 12. Jump 4 being TL 13. But also part of it is that GURPS and Mongoose changed things to make higher jump ships more cost effective than they were previously.
Obviously, comparing it to the merchant marine makes things easier to extrapolate. I just don't find it convincing. YMMV, of course. I actually like that it doesn't pin it down and lets each GM structure trade and transport how they feel suits their game best.
You can't do that with Jump drives. There are a few places (like Rhylanor/Porozlo) where hi pop worlds are close to each other. But in most cases (especially in the frontiers like the Spinward Marches), any hi pop to hi pop run is going to be multiple jumps even if you are jump 4. Of course, you can create refueling stations independent of the starport for these "transit" vehicles to bypass the intermediary ports. But that's infrastructure not in evidence in published material.
The published material, especially the older material, does make it clear that jump 1 and jump 2 mains are the drivers of commerce, with Jump 3 and Jump 4 gaps considered a pretty significant hindrance. Part of that is that the 'default commercial tech' of the Imperium is usually given as TL 12. Jump 4 being TL 13. But also part of it is that GURPS and Mongoose changed things to make higher jump ships more cost effective than they were previously.
Obviously, comparing it to the merchant marine makes things easier to extrapolate. I just don't find it convincing. YMMV, of course. I actually like that it doesn't pin it down and lets each GM structure trade and transport how they feel suits their game best.
