Shadow Queen
Mongoose
keeping on the stargate area instead of railguns whynot use drones?
The Orieni Empire in the ISA Era for A Call to Arms
- Thread starter Nerroth
- Start date
Locarno24:
Bear in mind that the Orieni also have laser tech, in the form of the Laser Spears and War Lances - so it's not just down to gauss rifles and missiles, thankfully.
I would like to keep the weapons and loadouts as close to matching that seen in B5W as much as possible - and if examples of B5W weapons which had been converted to ACTA preiously are around, they might help.
For example, if we look at the ship card for the Paragon-class as seen in TGC, the B5W stats for the Laser Spear are as follows:
While the Heavy Gauss Rifle looks like this:
And the Class-L missile rack is:
With the Improved Gatling Railgun as follows:
(Note that the Orieni do have railguns which are listed as separate from the gauss rifles...)
How would these examples look in ACTA?
Knave1:
If you see what I had written in the opening post, you'll see that in Mongoose's version of the B5 setting, the Crusade as told in TGC cannot go ahead as it stands.
For one, the Minbari are already written as engaging the Drakh ifrit clan in Protectorate space - and after driving the Drakh off Tir and Eudu, pursuing the ifrit to the edge of once-Vorlon space, where they found nothing but wreckage indicating what had once been proud Drakh ships...
This is all from the Drakh sourcebook for the B5 RPG, by the way.
To re-iterate, I would have the launch of a strike into Protectorate space moved from the late 2260s to the early 2270s - and not only be on a smaller scale than the devastating assault outlined in TGC, but also be complicated/postponed/redirected by the emergence of the survivng ifrit clanships into Orieni space.
Again, please look at the opening post, and see what I was trying to come up with as an alternate means of bringing the Orieni Empire into the ISA-era, as seen in Mongoose's take on the B5 universe.
Lt. Dee:
The Orieni do indeed have missiles (the class L on capital ships, the class R on the Storm Front-class missile frigates, and the class B on fixed defences) - as well as the other types of weapons, such as War Laces, Laser Spears and Gauss Rifles, featured in TGC.
Bear in mind that the Orieni also have laser tech, in the form of the Laser Spears and War Lances - so it's not just down to gauss rifles and missiles, thankfully.
I would like to keep the weapons and loadouts as close to matching that seen in B5W as much as possible - and if examples of B5W weapons which had been converted to ACTA preiously are around, they might help.
For example, if we look at the ship card for the Paragon-class as seen in TGC, the B5W stats for the Laser Spear are as follows:
While the Heavy Gauss Rifle looks like this:
And the Class-L missile rack is:
With the Improved Gatling Railgun as follows:
(Note that the Orieni do have railguns which are listed as separate from the gauss rifles...)
How would these examples look in ACTA?
Knave1:
If you see what I had written in the opening post, you'll see that in Mongoose's version of the B5 setting, the Crusade as told in TGC cannot go ahead as it stands.
For one, the Minbari are already written as engaging the Drakh ifrit clan in Protectorate space - and after driving the Drakh off Tir and Eudu, pursuing the ifrit to the edge of once-Vorlon space, where they found nothing but wreckage indicating what had once been proud Drakh ships...
This is all from the Drakh sourcebook for the B5 RPG, by the way.
To re-iterate, I would have the launch of a strike into Protectorate space moved from the late 2260s to the early 2270s - and not only be on a smaller scale than the devastating assault outlined in TGC, but also be complicated/postponed/redirected by the emergence of the survivng ifrit clanships into Orieni space.
Again, please look at the opening post, and see what I was trying to come up with as an alternate means of bringing the Orieni Empire into the ISA-era, as seen in Mongoose's take on the B5 universe.
Lt. Dee:
The Orieni do indeed have missiles (the class L on capital ships, the class R on the Storm Front-class missile frigates, and the class B on fixed defences) - as well as the other types of weapons, such as War Laces, Laser Spears and Gauss Rifles, featured in TGC.
I can't do stats and stuff but if you need some fluff discussion, I would be happy to contribute.
Anyway, as somewhat discussed, I think the Orieni can be split up between maybe three fleet types:
*Pure military of the Hand of the Blessed making use of standard technology from the Hunter Killer to Prophet ships
*An elite faction that do the personal work for the Blessed themselves and have access to high technology, so think the Orieni's version of the Psi Corp and EA Black Ops branch
*The Orieni Imperial Security Force that make use of subject races vessels
I think it would allow for variety when using the Orieni possibly, again just a thought.
Again as I said, I dont think the Orieni can tackle the Minbari head on but if its minor border skirmishes in the Protectorate then its all on. Perhaps even have some new specific Sun Lance clan Minbari ship variants even to signify their role as protectors of that territory?
Also, I think this can be easily be placed in C-O War period and the Crusade era. First I think the latter should be worked on first but the former can be added at any time.
I mean these are the possible C-O War Era Forces:
*Orieni
*Centauri
*Drazi
*Abbai
*Drakh
The Drakh faught the Orieni when the Orieni got a vision from their gods on the true nature of the Drakh as servants of the Shadows. So they sent a war fleet to the supposed Drakh homeworld which they bombed but suffered heavy casualities and likely cost them a victory against the Centauri. I was thinking perhaps the Ifrit clan were involved? Or perhaps the Dacu Drakh clan? Anyway, this brings a further element into the storyline, would the Orieni scavenge the wreckage and attempt to use destroyed Drakh technology? I mean the purists would perhaps want it destroyed but perhaps more secretive cabals attempted to reverse engineer it? Just a thought there.
On the weaponry basis, the Orieni seem to mix heavy medium or short range matter weaponry to pummel their enemies while using lasers as long range support along with Hunter Killer remote fighters to ram into the enemy. Their naval doctrine, as already mentioned, seems ironically similar to the Drakh as they use escort craft with large mothership combinations.
Anyway, as somewhat discussed, I think the Orieni can be split up between maybe three fleet types:
*Pure military of the Hand of the Blessed making use of standard technology from the Hunter Killer to Prophet ships
*An elite faction that do the personal work for the Blessed themselves and have access to high technology, so think the Orieni's version of the Psi Corp and EA Black Ops branch
*The Orieni Imperial Security Force that make use of subject races vessels
I think it would allow for variety when using the Orieni possibly, again just a thought.
Again as I said, I dont think the Orieni can tackle the Minbari head on but if its minor border skirmishes in the Protectorate then its all on. Perhaps even have some new specific Sun Lance clan Minbari ship variants even to signify their role as protectors of that territory?
Also, I think this can be easily be placed in C-O War period and the Crusade era. First I think the latter should be worked on first but the former can be added at any time.
I mean these are the possible C-O War Era Forces:
*Orieni
*Centauri
*Drazi
*Abbai
*Drakh
The Drakh faught the Orieni when the Orieni got a vision from their gods on the true nature of the Drakh as servants of the Shadows. So they sent a war fleet to the supposed Drakh homeworld which they bombed but suffered heavy casualities and likely cost them a victory against the Centauri. I was thinking perhaps the Ifrit clan were involved? Or perhaps the Dacu Drakh clan? Anyway, this brings a further element into the storyline, would the Orieni scavenge the wreckage and attempt to use destroyed Drakh technology? I mean the purists would perhaps want it destroyed but perhaps more secretive cabals attempted to reverse engineer it? Just a thought there.
On the weaponry basis, the Orieni seem to mix heavy medium or short range matter weaponry to pummel their enemies while using lasers as long range support along with Hunter Killer remote fighters to ram into the enemy. Their naval doctrine, as already mentioned, seems ironically similar to the Drakh as they use escort craft with large mothership combinations.
Ulkesh:
I've spun out the C-O War era into a new thread, called War in the Twenty-First Century - please feel free to add your ideas for converting WCR over to ACTA in that thread!
As far as your fleet ideas go, the three groups of ships I'd like to see done first are the Navy, OISF and Rogolon ships from TGC and S11 - not least because we already have the three sets of ship cards in TGC and S11 to work on right now.
I am not opposed to experimenting with Vorlon-tech (or even Drakh-tech) ships for one or more factions within the Empire - but I want to see the ships which are already out there done first.
A Sun Lance fleet for the Protectorate might be cool - but bear in mind that by 2270, the Minbari had sent substantial reinforcements to push the ifrit out of Protectorate space, so the Sun Lances are likely to be heavily fortified by the time an Orieni incursion might be on the cards.
That said, a Sun Lance fleet would be great for fighting that Drakh war over Tir and Eudu, though.
I've spun out the C-O War era into a new thread, called War in the Twenty-First Century - please feel free to add your ideas for converting WCR over to ACTA in that thread!
As far as your fleet ideas go, the three groups of ships I'd like to see done first are the Navy, OISF and Rogolon ships from TGC and S11 - not least because we already have the three sets of ship cards in TGC and S11 to work on right now.
I am not opposed to experimenting with Vorlon-tech (or even Drakh-tech) ships for one or more factions within the Empire - but I want to see the ships which are already out there done first.
A Sun Lance fleet for the Protectorate might be cool - but bear in mind that by 2270, the Minbari had sent substantial reinforcements to push the ifrit out of Protectorate space, so the Sun Lances are likely to be heavily fortified by the time an Orieni incursion might be on the cards.
That said, a Sun Lance fleet would be great for fighting that Drakh war over Tir and Eudu, though.
Now i haven't read all the novels yet, or even have them. But I'm guessing that the 2270's are rife with strife with the Centauri. Sheridan's son David will becoming of age and is captured and also Sheridan and Delenn are captured in 2278, then Londo and Gkar kill each other. This all indicates that the ISA and Centauri while under Keeper contolled Londo, are at war with each other, even if only in some small part. Then Vir has to fight to save his people when he becomes Emperor, because civil war supposedly breaks out (i'm guessing between drakh/centauri that don't want the Drakh to nuke Centauri Prime, VS Vir and those who want to save Centauri from Drakh rule).
Either way if you look at the time line one war seems to start when another begins. So maybe the Oreni could be in early 2270-2275 but after that i see big conflict between the Centauri and ISA, and i mean big because by then the Adira and Liati are ready.
Either way if you look at the time line one war seems to start when another begins. So maybe the Oreni could be in early 2270-2275 but after that i see big conflict between the Centauri and ISA, and i mean big because by then the Adira and Liati are ready.
Shadow Queen
Mongoose
knave1 said:
look in the 2nd edition RPG Drakh book it does give timelines in there
Well, given that the Empire has by this time managed to expand to its pre-Centauri War borders, more or less, there may still be a sizeable frontier with the Republic, despite the significant withdrawals that the Centauri have made from systems which were once under the Lion's sway.
So, there may well be plenty of reasons for the Orieni and Centauri to have border 'incidents' in this time period.
However, the ifrit clan in the Protectorate are operating more or less independently from the kala clan who played the most decisive role on Centauri Prime, so those two wars need not directly overlap, depending on how one might wish the story to go.
So, there may well be plenty of reasons for the Orieni and Centauri to have border 'incidents' in this time period.
However, the ifrit clan in the Protectorate are operating more or less independently from the kala clan who played the most decisive role on Centauri Prime, so those two wars need not directly overlap, depending on how one might wish the story to go.
I think it was the Ifrit and the Shan that were working together more because its said that while the Ifrit are a major Drakh clan they are simply survivors and lack the power of the others. Infact, its said that without the web of aid from the Shan and possibly the Kala, the Ifrit would have been driven out of the Protectorate almost as soon as they arrived.
Wish I could help with stats and stuff but as said thats out of my area of expertise, I hope someone more familiar and capable with it can provide more help then me there
Wish I could help with stats and stuff but as said thats out of my area of expertise, I hope someone more familiar and capable with it can provide more help then me there
Shadow Queen
Mongoose
how do the weapons fire is it buttons or is it controled by thought?
Shadow Queen
Mongoose
im thinking of the cool seat from sg1 and atlantis
IA-era vorlon technology might well require one of the blessed to operate it telepathically - it is bitek, after all, so a command chair is quite possible.
Centauri republic era? The big red button with 'bang' written on it, I'm afraid.
O.K.....some thoughts.
I've done a bit of calculation and scaling; figuring out the average hitpoints of the orieni ship classes (if shot at from a random direction) in B5W. ACTA ships generally have about 40-50% as many hitpoints. Cripple values are usually in the order of 25% of normal hitpoints. Playtesting might move a value up or down, but it's a good starting point if it's desired to retain the relative size of classes.
Following that scaling, that gives the following damage values
Frigate Hull (Devout Escort/Obedient Patrol): 16/4
Frigate Hull (Vengeful Laser): 20/4
Corvette Hull (Steadfast Escort/Storm Front Missile): 21/5
Corvette Hull (Commune Battle Leader): 26/6
Support Ship (Benevolent Heavy Scout/Vigilant H/K Carrier): 48/11
Troopship (Enlightenment Invader): 48/11
Command Ship (Prophet/Paragon): 57/13
Which, broadly speaking, puts the frigates into patrol, the 'vettes into skirmish, the auxiliaries into raid and the command ships into battle. Given that this is 1000 years pre dilgar-war War priority ships probably shouldn't appear outside drakh/minbari fleets, so I'm happy with that.
Weapons (opinions from flavour text only)
Laser Lance
listed as the fore-runner to the Centauri Battle laser (when reverse engineered). Described as 'short ranged' (matching battle laser). Battle laser stats (maybe drop to 15" to account for centauri evolution of the design) seem apt.
Suggest: Full Arc, 15" range, Beam, Precise
Light laser cannon
Speaks for itself. I'd say decent range boresight beam to differentiate it from the lance.
Suggest: Borseight, 20" range, Beam
Missile Rack
Whilst the phrase 'heavy missiles' are used, its described as being the imperium's primary long ranged firepower. Clone either EA or Dilgar missile rack statline. Personally I'd suggest EA; the gauss weapons do hull-breaking, the lasers and missiles pick on critical targets. Battle lasers and double damage missiles starts to look a lot like the contemporary centauri fleet. It also fits the description of the signature Orieni rack loadout:
Suggest: Full Arc, 30" range, Super Armour Piercing, Precise
Gauss Cannons/Heavy Gauss Cannons/Gatlings
Standard cannon. I'd still use EA railgun stats because orieni railguns are the light flak variant. Up to triple damage and slight range boost for heavies.
Note that railguns and gatling railguns are secondary light guns, unlike 'big stick' weapons on earth ships. The twin array may no longer feature on centauri ships, but a twin-linked, 12" range weapon and high anti-fighter score (and low interceptor score) would be a good model. Note that 'escort' ships usually max out on these.
Also, fighter armament:
'Effective against ships' to my mind means a non-weak weapon. If following the gatling model above, that means twin-linked but otherwise traitless, like a 3rd age 'fury.
Gauss Cannon
Suggest: Full Arc, 20" range, Armour Piercing, Double Damage
Heavy Gauss Cannon
Suggest: Full Arc, 25" range, Armour Piercing, Triple Damage
Gatling Railgun
Suggest: Full Arc, 10" range, Twin-Linked + Anti-fighter/Interceptors
Light Gatling Railgun (Fighters)
Suggest: Turret, 2" range, Twin-Linked
Note: Politics.
Orieni/Drakh. Reading the WOTCR not only are the drakh the servants of the blessed's creators' archnemesis, but they're also responsible for betraying them in the war that led to the imperium's downfall... If the Drakh war/Juyaie gets going after their re-emergence as a galactic nation, their response is likely to be 'where do we sign?'. If the trail happens to lead to the Centauri republic....oh, well.
locarno24 said:
The Omega has Light Laser Cannon in it's broadside, I'd go for Full Arc Minibeam at range 15, instead...
I'd actually say try something completely unique for this... maybe 24" range, Accurate, AP, Precise to reflect the advanced tracking and maneuvering systems, along with the non-explosive payload.
Sounds good... possibly change the Heavy Gauss to SAP/DD instead of AP/TD.
Shadow Queen
Mongoose
I was wandering on any unique ship for the fleet
Locarno24:
I really like it.
However, since your stats seem to be based on WCR, could you re-post it in the War in the Twenty-First Century thread (where the WCR-era fleets are being discussed) and keep this thread focussed on the ships and weapons in The Great Crusade and Showdowns 11?
Lt. Dee:
There is a unique ship listed in TGC - the Flame of Purity, a modified Paragon-class Command ship.
It's mean.
I really like it.
However, since your stats seem to be based on WCR, could you re-post it in the War in the Twenty-First Century thread (where the WCR-era fleets are being discussed) and keep this thread focussed on the ships and weapons in The Great Crusade and Showdowns 11?
Lt. Dee:
There is a unique ship listed in TGC - the Flame of Purity, a modified Paragon-class Command ship.
It's mean.
Shadow Queen
Mongoose
I was thinking of them having the seat as a control and firing system
Maybe on the Flame of Purity, ther could be some sort of experimental command chair for a Blessed to operate...
There are some solid ideas for the Orieni goin on in the 21c thread - but what kind of ACTA versions of the weapons rules seen in TGC and S11 should there be, and how similar should they look compared to what is being cooked up over in the other thread?
And for that matter, what about the hull types exlusive to the later era, such as the Zealot-class cruisers, OISF and Rogolon ships - or should the discussion be focussed on the modern-day Navy first?
There are some solid ideas for the Orieni goin on in the 21c thread - but what kind of ACTA versions of the weapons rules seen in TGC and S11 should there be, and how similar should they look compared to what is being cooked up over in the other thread?
And for that matter, what about the hull types exlusive to the later era, such as the Zealot-class cruisers, OISF and Rogolon ships - or should the discussion be focussed on the modern-day Navy first?
I'd start by trying a direct conversion, then fiddling anything you don't like (more or less my plan).
I'd suggest that the Orieni will improve their technology (they did during the Centauri war - the Shining Star being the new hotness that was always in short supply). They won't, however, change their operational doctrine; they're theocratic zealots and the religion worships order and percieved perfection (the vorlon's telepathic avatar of the maiden in ice...).
I think the 'storyline' of the crusade is the most important, because that will define how much vorlon hardware they get, and who their ships are optimised to fight.
Once you've got that, I'd start with a rough fleet list, and pull through any 21st century ship designs, then add new ones from the Great Crusade List, then finally add vorlon tech hybrids (complete with telepathic command interface to keep Dee happy).
Can someone point me at 'the great crusade' document? I know we're a bit dismissive of the idea of them taking on the Minbari
Rough history outline
Orieni expand into space, imperium formed, Blessed emerge but are largely ignored by the vorlons - all covered in WOTCR
Orieni are one of the two major powers in space, the other being the Centauri. The inevitable showdown occurs and the Orieni eventually lose.
In the process the Orieni are betrayed by the Drakh. In turn the Orieni, who discover what the drakh actually are, turn on them savagely, hunting down and destroying the drakh 'homeworld'. Question 1 - is this actually the Drakh homeword, or simply a clan homeworld? (this is the other thread, I realise, just keeping track of decisions)
The Imperium is pretty much shattered, and with it the authority of the Blessed. They remain more or less in charge but the secular elements grow. After a century or so they are able to hold their own territory again but not much more. Fortunately several new races have emerged in the meantime and the Centauri are far too busy to come smack them down again. They aren't known to be involved in the League, and aren't big enough to be important (yet) by themselves. Largely insular during the 3rd age is a good assumption.
Something then triggers their re-involvement in the larger galaxy.
Question 2 - Did they miss the shadow war? Hard to believe...I can imagine them, on finding out about the war, trying to get involved; their gods finally go to war in all their glory and they just sit their? It's hard to imagine they didn't notice the war, maybe they did fight but didn't join Sheridan's Alliance. Perhaps a secular society watched the war, but the vorlon's actions re-ignited the faith in the Blessed....give them five-to-ten years and they become a major if not quite dominant force in Orien again. And now, watching them depart, they have a new goal; bring the fallen back to the Vorlon's guidance, and take up the tasks of their masters.
The blessed go on a pilgrimage to former vorlon space. Many are killed, but some come back with holy relics that form centres of worship - and several more functional relics that are not declared to the republic's government. The Hand of the Blessed is secretly being rebuilt, mostly using recomissioned imperial-era warships, but with a few new designs built with their salvaged vorlon weapons and armour.
They decide they must rejoin the larger community, and apply for ISA membership - the republic gets 'guided' subtly by the Blessed so that they can find out more about their foes. The Republic investsd heavily in aquiring the new technology becoming availible. Fortuitiously for Orien, their re-entrance to the Galactic stage coincides with the fall of Centauri prime - a great degree of smug satisfaction is gained and a removal of a major political obstacle make the whole thing much easier!
Orien becomes expansionist, but only slightly so; returning close to its former borders but being careful to absorb only those worlds without League/Alliance membership.
Outside its immediate sphere of influence, Orieni Preachers begin to spread their message. Some worlds become hotbeds of the faith, other races reject it. Particular effort is made in the Minbari Protectorate; the alien races living their under Minbari Protection are mostly other former Vorlon servants and many are receptive to the message - to the consternation of the Minbari Clans who police the space. 'Incidents' are common but are between minbari and 'faithful' protectorate militia ships, or between worlds that have and have not accepted the message of the Faith, as often as between minbari and Orieni. The protectorate steadily spirals towards civil war, with the Minbari increasingly helpless to control matters short of heavy-handed enforcement they refuse to consider (not least due to the demands on the fleet by the Drakh/Centauri conflicts). It is even rumoured that some of the more dissatisfied warrior and religious clans have been supporting them.
Back on Orien, the Blessed's influence is becoming increasingly apparent, and the republic is riven by its own internal tensions. The OISF and allied militaries are starting to become aware of how widespread the Blessed's influence has become, and skirmishes with unregistered warships occur.
Question 3 - When did they (re)encounter The Drakh
The Orieni have a hatred of the Drakh even stronger than that of the shadows - not only is it religously inspired but the Drakh betrayal also cost them the war (ok....not the only reason but they're a very good factor to blame without looking inwards!). Either they'll encounter the Drakh as mysterious raiders like the rest of the galaxy or they'll become aware after the Drakh assault on earth. The suggestion of the Drakh being pushed out of protectorate space towards the Orieni Republic sounds likely. Either way the Extermination of the Drakh is likely to be a major motivator and if the centauri happen to be in the way they may just enjoy it even more as a result.
If they figure out the Centauri are harbouring the Drakh, the combination of the two ancient enemies is likely to provoke a crusade of them and the 'faithful' from the Minbari protectorate.
Once the Earth-Centauri war gets underway, the Orieni are likely to become openly expansionist, especially heading into Centauri space - not only to surround the old vorlon territories (holy ground that must be protected!) but to punish these foes.
The Hand of the Blessed starts acting openly, thundering into centauri space, and occasionally intruding into the protectorate worlds, agressively 'protecting' the Faithful and their preachers when other governments try to remove them.
Then, of course, the big question: How Does it end? The orieni don't 'win' because they never become a dominant player in any future vision. So what happens to the blessed? Follow their masters out beyond the rim, leaving Orien a 'normal' world like it was before they came?
Commentry on the following ships:
Crusader-class Fleet Carrier
Zealot-class Cruiser
Purifier-class Bomber
These are New. The Fleet Carrier fits the big ship/swarm of the Orieni perfectly but only with the now-present bomber is it really workable...
Templar II Interceptor
Blazing Star Hunter-Killer
Overseer-class Hunter-Killer Conveyor Ship
Resolute-class Military Freighter
The Flame of Purity - flagship Paragon-class Command Ship
These are upgrades to existing ships and should be easy to figure out - aside from the Unique Flame. For simplicity make the Overseer and Resolute the sucessors to the Vigilant and Invader respectively. I'd redo the Flame into a new class - call it the Peerless-class to follow the theme - the Vorlon-tech enhanced Paragons, built secretly....not a million miles from the Omega-X. Since the Paragon (look at the 21st century thread) is bloody fragile for a warship, a good balancing idea would be to double up the toughness with plated adaptive armour (which if you can grow it is probably the simplest bit of vorlon technology to master), with the Flame itself also armed with Discharge Guns instead of its normal lance/missile armament for lethal righteous zappyness.
Paragon-class Strike Force Command Ship
Prophet-class Command Ship
Vengeance-class Attack Frigate
Storm Front-class Missile Frigate
Devout-class Escort Frigate
Steadfast-class Corvette
These are identical (more or less) - a slight weapons fit change, possibly. I'd be tempted to say none. Given the story I'm suggesting, the Hand of the Blessed is being rebuilt secretly with a big portion of its firepower drawn from other fleets.
I'd say do it psi-corps fashion; up to 2 points can be drawn from the Hand of the Blessed (Imperium Era), OISF (Republic Era), Minbari Protectorate Militia or Raiders (in this case Mercenaries and other militias), and drop the older ships from the list.
Sure: both The Great Crusade and Showdowns 11 - along with the ship diagrams for the classes described within - are available at this link.
I'm thinking that the history up to 2261 described in both documents is pretty much good to go already - all we really need to do is work out out own post-2261 history for ACTA purposes.
I'm thinking that the history up to 2261 described in both documents is pretty much good to go already - all we really need to do is work out out own post-2261 history for ACTA purposes.
Fair enough.
Only a few comments to add then:
Staring Into the Abyss/Rebirth - Fair enough, basically the collapse of the Republic into a civil war gave the Orieni breathing room
Watching from the Light - OK, hence the Rogolon fleet.
Troubled Times - I have to say I don't really like the idea of this...what, the Centauri hadn't noticed the Orieni Imperium had regrown? I can accept increased tensions but the Centauri didn't intervene in the Dilgar war because they (a) didn't care about the League races and (b) actively had dealings with the Dilgar. The Great Crusade document seems determined to make the Orieni into another 'uber-threat-to-everyone' race which quite frankly they shouldn't be.
Again, just no. Everyone probably increased military spending on seeing just how horrificaly powerful the Minbari fleet was, but 'facing the Minbari in battle' for a race who are a technological equivalent of the Centauri less a couple of centuries of muted technological development whilst rebuilding is a form of elaborate suicide.
Change and Despair - The Orieni military missing the Shadow War as it occured on the far side of the Centauri/Minbari space region, ok.
Fury and War - The rage described is fair enough but as had been said several times in this thread a head-on assault as described by the GC document will not end up with the Minbari getting whupped. There is definitely going to be a desire to punish them, and everyone else, this is not going to be achieved by smashing the entire Orieni species against Minbar.
The sudden upsurge in the Orieni fleet is fair enough; turn the entire racial goal towards war in the same fashion as the Dilgar and you have an impressive military capacity. However:
Doesn't wash. The Minbari aren't incompetent and their reconnaisance units are stealthier and better provided with sensors than their counterparts. They have quite a lot of people whose job was poking around in dusty, dark corners of the galaxy so the concept that they didn't notice the resurgance of an empire for a period of two hundred and twenty years verges on the laughable. 'Thousands' of ships can I suppose be just about forgiven given the Orieni perdilection for corvette-class vessels, but even so it's a bit over the top.
Right....the new ships:
Crusader-Class Fleet Carrier
An Invader-Class hull. That can read across directly.
6 Flights of Templars (well - now Templar-IIs) and 4 flights of H-Ks.
Swap out the troops, shuttles and flank missile racks for the fighter capacity.
Weapons have gone up too - War Lances, whilst the same effective range, are significantly more powerful (unlike the heavy laser lance they are probably nasty enough to justify double damage at a slight reduction in AD) and the Advanced Gatling Railguns are double the rate again from the rapid railguns on the Paragon. I'd personally just promote them to Rapid Gatlings to prevent having to deal with too many classes of the same weapon.
Currently suggested Enlightenment:
Try modifying to:
Crusader-class Fleet Carrier
Speed: 7
Hull: 5
Troops: 8
Craft: 6 Templar-II Flights, 4 Blazing Star Hunter-Killers
Turns: 1/45
Damage: 48/11
Crew: 48/11
Traits: Interceptors 5, Anti-Fighter 5, Carrier 5, Fleet Carrier, H-K Controller, Lumbering
Weapons:
War Lances - 15" range - F - 2 AD - Beam, Precise, Double Damage
Rapid Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 20 AD - Twin-linked
Zealot-Class Cruiser
A genuinely new ship, this one. A thoroughbred don't stand in front of them gunboat. The manouvrability stats are better than an Enlightenment but not as good as a Steadfast, so I'll drop Lumbering.
Following the same logic as before, its 40/40/40/0/40 hull translates to about 32/7 for damage points.
2 Rapid Gatling Railguns in all directions (on a par with a Devout-class when you include the improved rate of fire), and 3 Gauss Cannons and 4 Light Lasers forwards.
Zealot-class Cruiser
Speed: 7
Hull: 5
Troops: 2
Craft: -
Turns: 2/45
Damage: 32/7
Crew: 32/7
Traits: Interceptors 2, Anti-Fighter 2, Jump Point
Weapons:
Gauss Cannons - 15" range - F - 6 AD - Armour Piercing, Double Damage
Light Laser Cannons - 15" range - F - 6 AD - Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Rapid Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 5 AD - Twin-linked
Which is a bit of a problem - it's clearly better than a Steadfast but I don't think it's twice as good, which it needs to be to be Raid-priority. possibly grant it the 2/45 of a corvette so it can keep its gauss weapons on target (added).
Templar-II Class Fighter
The only difference is a minor improvement of forward armour. I'd up it to 5 per wing and leave it be (it's still vulnerable from side and rear so leave dogfight as is).
Speed: 10
Hull: 5
Craft: 5
Turns: SM
Traits: Dogfight +1, Dodge 2+, Fighter
Weapons:
Light Gatling Railguns - 2" range - Turret - 1 AD - Twin-linked
Blazing Star-Class Hunter-Killer
Higher speed is easy, and a fractionally higher dodge may help too.
Kind of contradictory, but let's say an extra attack dice rather than increasing the damage multiplier trait.
Speed: 14
Hull: 6
Craft: 2
Turns: SM
Traits: Dogfight -1, Dodge 4+, Fighter, Hunter-Killer
Weapons:
Ram - 0" range - Contact Only - 3 AD - Double Damage, Precise, Super Armour Piercing, Ram
Overseer-class Hunter-Killer Conveyer Ship
One of the biggest improvements of any single ship; doubling the H-K load and upgrading to the massively superior Blazing Stars probably justifies battle priority. The missiles swap to gauss cannon and a turreted war lance, so it's much more designed for up-close-and-personal fighting.
Speed: 6
Hull: 5
Troops: 2
Craft: 1 Templar-II Flight, 12 Blazing Star H-Ks
Turns: 1/45
Damage: 47/11
Crew: 47/11
Traits: Interceptors 5, Anti-Fighter 5, Lumbering, Jump Point, H-K Controller
Weapons:
Gauss Cannon - 15" range - F - 4 AD - Armour Piercing, Double Damage
War Lance - 15" range - T - 2 AD - Beam, Precise, Double Damage
Rapid Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 20 AD - Twin-linked
Purifier-Class Bomber
I see that I missed the meaning of 'Bomber'. Not a nice ship.
Speed: 6
Hull: 5
Troops: 2
Craft: -
Turns: 1/45
Damage: 47/11
Crew: 47/11
Traits: Interceptors 5, Anti-Fighter 5, Lumbering, Jump Point
Weapons:
Missile Tubes - 24" range - F - 6 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Mass Driver - 10" range - F - 8 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Triple Damage, Slow Loading, Mass Driver
Mass Driver - 10" range - F - 8 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Triple Damage, Slow Loading, Mass Driver
Rapid Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 20 AD - Twin-linked
Vengeance-class Attack Frigate
Which makes it a corvette, not a frigate. It is in fact an identical hull with updated but otherwise identical weapons. For the sake of simplicity, stick with the Steadfast as you're never going to push it up to raid-priority.
Just say no kids. No normal corvette-class gunship built by a centauri-level race will face an elite-crewed, bleeding edge sophistication, minbari-designed, vorlon-tech enhanced ship like the White Star and live.
The Flame Of Purity
I'd prefer to leave it be rather than try to port the stats over because as noted I don't like the idea of the Orieni committing pointless racial suicide rather than the preaching of the faith and slowly moving against the Minbari and Centauri/Drakh.
An Improved Paragon can only be Improved by moving up to armageddon-priority, something that should only really happen by the inlcusion of first one technology in the ship.
So what list of events are we looking at for post Corianna history?
1) Internal anguish and strife. I'd suggest that you actually do get the revolt described as possible - this is the source of the secularist factions of the Orieni.
2) Pilgrimage of the Blessed. Go to abase themselves in Vorlon space and nick shiny technology whilst there.
3) Preaching the Faith. Orieni preachers approach minor races near and in the Minbari Protectorate. Hand of the Blessed starts being built up.
4) Minbari-Drakh conflict in protectorate space meets Infidel/Faithful skirmishes coming the other way. The Blessed recognise the Drakh for what they are and are shocked to find they still exist.
5) three-way political and occasionally military conflict in protectorate space by Minbari, Orieni and Drakh factions. Increasing tensions between the Blessed and the secularists at home.
6) Orieni trace drakh influence to Centauri space (how?).
7) Hand of The Blessed Moves out to Centauri/Orieni border, securing the boundaries of vorlon space. Other HOB units move in to help 'protect' the increasingly millitant faithful in the protectorate, whilst the stronger races start actively lending military support to the Orieni incursions into centauri space. The secularists try to reign in the Blessed but fail.
8) The Vorlon-tech enhanced Peerless-class command ships, whose construction was kept a secret even from much of the Imperium, are revealed in a major strike. The most heavily enhanced of the class, the former Paragon-class Flame of Purity, becomes the crusade flagship as the crusade forces become almost totally divorced from control by Orien.
9) ???
Oh - one other thought; a race looking for a god. What a perfect subject for manipulation by the right party.....I wonder if agents of the Hand might try to gain acces to the Blessed?
[/i]
Only a few comments to add then:
Staring Into the Abyss/Rebirth - Fair enough, basically the collapse of the Republic into a civil war gave the Orieni breathing room
Watching from the Light - OK, hence the Rogolon fleet.
Troubled Times - I have to say I don't really like the idea of this...what, the Centauri hadn't noticed the Orieni Imperium had regrown? I can accept increased tensions but the Centauri didn't intervene in the Dilgar war because they (a) didn't care about the League races and (b) actively had dealings with the Dilgar. The Great Crusade document seems determined to make the Orieni into another 'uber-threat-to-everyone' race which quite frankly they shouldn't be.
Again, just no. Everyone probably increased military spending on seeing just how horrificaly powerful the Minbari fleet was, but 'facing the Minbari in battle' for a race who are a technological equivalent of the Centauri less a couple of centuries of muted technological development whilst rebuilding is a form of elaborate suicide.
Dismissed as a one paragraph comment, yet needs answering. If the Orieni were aware of the Babylon Project, given how close it was to their racial motivations why the hell didn't they get involved? For that matter why did the cast not have to fight their way past a carpet of genuflecting Orieni Blessed every time they went to Kosh's quarters?
Change and Despair - The Orieni military missing the Shadow War as it occured on the far side of the Centauri/Minbari space region, ok.
Fury and War - The rage described is fair enough but as had been said several times in this thread a head-on assault as described by the GC document will not end up with the Minbari getting whupped. There is definitely going to be a desire to punish them, and everyone else, this is not going to be achieved by smashing the entire Orieni species against Minbar.
The sudden upsurge in the Orieni fleet is fair enough; turn the entire racial goal towards war in the same fashion as the Dilgar and you have an impressive military capacity. However:
Doesn't wash. The Minbari aren't incompetent and their reconnaisance units are stealthier and better provided with sensors than their counterparts. They have quite a lot of people whose job was poking around in dusty, dark corners of the galaxy so the concept that they didn't notice the resurgance of an empire for a period of two hundred and twenty years verges on the laughable. 'Thousands' of ships can I suppose be just about forgiven given the Orieni perdilection for corvette-class vessels, but even so it's a bit over the top.
Right....the new ships:
Crusader-Class Fleet Carrier
An Invader-Class hull. That can read across directly.
6 Flights of Templars (well - now Templar-IIs) and 4 flights of H-Ks.
Swap out the troops, shuttles and flank missile racks for the fighter capacity.
Weapons have gone up too - War Lances, whilst the same effective range, are significantly more powerful (unlike the heavy laser lance they are probably nasty enough to justify double damage at a slight reduction in AD) and the Advanced Gatling Railguns are double the rate again from the rapid railguns on the Paragon. I'd personally just promote them to Rapid Gatlings to prevent having to deal with too many classes of the same weapon.
Currently suggested Enlightenment:
Try modifying to:
Crusader-class Fleet Carrier
Speed: 7
Hull: 5
Troops: 8
Craft: 6 Templar-II Flights, 4 Blazing Star Hunter-Killers
Turns: 1/45
Damage: 48/11
Crew: 48/11
Traits: Interceptors 5, Anti-Fighter 5, Carrier 5, Fleet Carrier, H-K Controller, Lumbering
Weapons:
War Lances - 15" range - F - 2 AD - Beam, Precise, Double Damage
Rapid Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 20 AD - Twin-linked
Zealot-Class Cruiser
A genuinely new ship, this one. A thoroughbred don't stand in front of them gunboat. The manouvrability stats are better than an Enlightenment but not as good as a Steadfast, so I'll drop Lumbering.
Following the same logic as before, its 40/40/40/0/40 hull translates to about 32/7 for damage points.
2 Rapid Gatling Railguns in all directions (on a par with a Devout-class when you include the improved rate of fire), and 3 Gauss Cannons and 4 Light Lasers forwards.
Zealot-class Cruiser
Speed: 7
Hull: 5
Troops: 2
Craft: -
Turns: 2/45
Damage: 32/7
Crew: 32/7
Traits: Interceptors 2, Anti-Fighter 2, Jump Point
Weapons:
Gauss Cannons - 15" range - F - 6 AD - Armour Piercing, Double Damage
Light Laser Cannons - 15" range - F - 6 AD - Mini-Beam, Slow-Loading
Rapid Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 5 AD - Twin-linked
You're telling me.
Which is a bit of a problem - it's clearly better than a Steadfast but I don't think it's twice as good, which it needs to be to be Raid-priority. possibly grant it the 2/45 of a corvette so it can keep its gauss weapons on target (added).
Templar-II Class Fighter
The only difference is a minor improvement of forward armour. I'd up it to 5 per wing and leave it be (it's still vulnerable from side and rear so leave dogfight as is).
Speed: 10
Hull: 5
Craft: 5
Turns: SM
Traits: Dogfight +1, Dodge 2+, Fighter
Weapons:
Light Gatling Railguns - 2" range - Turret - 1 AD - Twin-linked
Blazing Star-Class Hunter-Killer
Higher speed is easy, and a fractionally higher dodge may help too.
Kind of contradictory, but let's say an extra attack dice rather than increasing the damage multiplier trait.
Speed: 14
Hull: 6
Craft: 2
Turns: SM
Traits: Dogfight -1, Dodge 4+, Fighter, Hunter-Killer
Weapons:
Ram - 0" range - Contact Only - 3 AD - Double Damage, Precise, Super Armour Piercing, Ram
Overseer-class Hunter-Killer Conveyer Ship
One of the biggest improvements of any single ship; doubling the H-K load and upgrading to the massively superior Blazing Stars probably justifies battle priority. The missiles swap to gauss cannon and a turreted war lance, so it's much more designed for up-close-and-personal fighting.
Speed: 6
Hull: 5
Troops: 2
Craft: 1 Templar-II Flight, 12 Blazing Star H-Ks
Turns: 1/45
Damage: 47/11
Crew: 47/11
Traits: Interceptors 5, Anti-Fighter 5, Lumbering, Jump Point, H-K Controller
Weapons:
Gauss Cannon - 15" range - F - 4 AD - Armour Piercing, Double Damage
War Lance - 15" range - T - 2 AD - Beam, Precise, Double Damage
Rapid Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 20 AD - Twin-linked
Purifier-Class Bomber
I see that I missed the meaning of 'Bomber'. Not a nice ship.
Speed: 6
Hull: 5
Troops: 2
Craft: -
Turns: 1/45
Damage: 47/11
Crew: 47/11
Traits: Interceptors 5, Anti-Fighter 5, Lumbering, Jump Point
Weapons:
Missile Tubes - 24" range - F - 6 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Precise, Slow-Loading
Mass Driver - 10" range - F - 8 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Triple Damage, Slow Loading, Mass Driver
Mass Driver - 10" range - F - 8 AD - Super Armour-Piercing, Triple Damage, Slow Loading, Mass Driver
Rapid Gatling Railguns - 8" range - T - 20 AD - Twin-linked
Vengeance-class Attack Frigate
Which makes it a corvette, not a frigate. It is in fact an identical hull with updated but otherwise identical weapons. For the sake of simplicity, stick with the Steadfast as you're never going to push it up to raid-priority.
Just say no kids. No normal corvette-class gunship built by a centauri-level race will face an elite-crewed, bleeding edge sophistication, minbari-designed, vorlon-tech enhanced ship like the White Star and live.
The Flame Of Purity
I'd prefer to leave it be rather than try to port the stats over because as noted I don't like the idea of the Orieni committing pointless racial suicide rather than the preaching of the faith and slowly moving against the Minbari and Centauri/Drakh.
An Improved Paragon can only be Improved by moving up to armageddon-priority, something that should only really happen by the inlcusion of first one technology in the ship.
So what list of events are we looking at for post Corianna history?
1) Internal anguish and strife. I'd suggest that you actually do get the revolt described as possible - this is the source of the secularist factions of the Orieni.
2) Pilgrimage of the Blessed. Go to abase themselves in Vorlon space and nick shiny technology whilst there.
3) Preaching the Faith. Orieni preachers approach minor races near and in the Minbari Protectorate. Hand of the Blessed starts being built up.
4) Minbari-Drakh conflict in protectorate space meets Infidel/Faithful skirmishes coming the other way. The Blessed recognise the Drakh for what they are and are shocked to find they still exist.
5) three-way political and occasionally military conflict in protectorate space by Minbari, Orieni and Drakh factions. Increasing tensions between the Blessed and the secularists at home.
6) Orieni trace drakh influence to Centauri space (how?).
7) Hand of The Blessed Moves out to Centauri/Orieni border, securing the boundaries of vorlon space. Other HOB units move in to help 'protect' the increasingly millitant faithful in the protectorate, whilst the stronger races start actively lending military support to the Orieni incursions into centauri space. The secularists try to reign in the Blessed but fail.
8) The Vorlon-tech enhanced Peerless-class command ships, whose construction was kept a secret even from much of the Imperium, are revealed in a major strike. The most heavily enhanced of the class, the former Paragon-class Flame of Purity, becomes the crusade flagship as the crusade forces become almost totally divorced from control by Orien.
9) ???
Oh - one other thought; a race looking for a god. What a perfect subject for manipulation by the right party.....I wonder if agents of the Hand might try to gain acces to the Blessed?
[/i]
