The Moot : how can it work?

[Ishvar]

First of all, I would like to thank Mongoose for the new Traveller line. Eveything has changed in the rules... and nothing has changed. Though I know Traveller for more than 23 years, your version is a real boon as it adds a much needed coherence in the OTU.

Though, as always, I will change a few things here and then, I am really enjoying the Spinward Marches sourcebook. The description of the Third Imperium is so good and lively (IMO of course) that for the first time I have a clear vision of the Imperial bureaucracy, the Nobility and the way the Imperium is working.

But there is still something that is bothering me since the first edition of Traveller I own (The Traveller Book). How can such a thing as the Moot simply work efficiently?

Let me explain it a bit more :

One way trip from Regina Subsector to Capital/Core : approximately 44 weeks at jump 4 assuming a continuous trip without any stop. A real trip would be far more longer.

From the border of second sector away from Capital/Core : 20 weeks (same remark, a real trip would be longer)

from the border of Capital/Core neighboring Sector to Capital Core : 12 weeks (same remark about the length of the trip)



Trip away and back :

From Regina : 88 weeks
From border of second sector : 40 weeks
From border of first sector : 24 weeks


How can the moot reach any result or even "work"? The nobles or their representatives (the more a Noble is far away from Capital/Core the more chances there are he is represented rather than being present I guess) must stay away almost all their life from their power base or ply the space lanes back and forth and thus spend the vast majority of their life in a starship. Representatives must wait for instructions for three to five months provided that they have not sent a question which answer will come back between six months to ten months.

IMO the moot can only represent the Core member states of the Imperium, those that are close enough from Capital. I suppose that other nobles or representatives just maintain a token representation acting more like a "liaison" officer than a real representative.

But how can the citizen have any consideration for an assembly where most of the Imperium is not really represented and where rallying opinions to further or oppose a project is almost impossible because most of the members of the Moot are simply not here or are changing all the time? How the border sectors states resent the fact that the Imperium policy is dictated by the nobles from Core?

More simply, how can such a Moot work?

 

[Dietrich hault-Rauln]

The only discussion of how the Moot works that I know of is in the T4 Mileau 0 book and the implication there is that the Moot's remaining power is the confirmation of a new Emperor.

The Imperium, per se, only rules the space between the planets. So there shouldn't be a whole pile of law to make that hasn't already been codified in some form.

My impression is that the Moot raises issues for debate where they are important to Noble Houses/interest groups and that the outcomes of these debates may perhaps be considered by the Emperor as another strand in any debate/advice regarding a particular policy.

Remember, the Moot is essentially like the Roman Senate after the Julio-Claudians. Reasonably powerless, but a good talking shop in which to test fly policy (if I might mix my metaphors).

As you point out, the travel times for representatives to get messages back to their sponsors and expect a reply are such that the Johnnies on the Spot have a fair amount of latertude in which to represent their sponsors. Then it comes down to personalities, experience, and how much control the sponsor group expects to weild over their representative.

But YMMV.

 

[Ishvar]

The only discussion of how the Moot works that I know of is in the T4 Mileau 0 book and the implication there is that the Moot's remaining power is the confirmation of a new Emperor.

This is more or less what is stated in the Spinward Marches sourcebook, but I doubt that the Moot and the various candidates will wait for one year before being confirmed by the Moot. The far frontier (and not so far one I guess) representatives would thus have to decide before receiving instructions from the power holder.

The Imperium, per se, only rules the space between the planets. So there shouldn't be a whole pile of law to make that hasn't already been codified in some form.

I am a former student in Law and I suppose that the Moot fills the role given to the various consultative bodies one can find in most of todays administrative organizations. Their decisions are usually not "mandatory" to the ruling body which can ignore them. But it is true that those decisions are also relayed by the medias and cannot be always ignored without any due consequences.

My impression is that the Moot raises issues for debate where they are important to Noble Houses/interest groups and that the outcomes of these debates may perhaps be considered by the Emperor as another strand in any debate/advice regarding a particular policy.

I agree and this is also what is written in the Spinward Marches sourcebook. It is also stated that the Emperor can not ignore the Moot and this is a vision I am sharing with the various authors.

Remember, the Moot is essentially like the Roman Senate after the Julio-Claudians. Reasonably powerless, but a good talking shop in which to test fly policy (if I might mix my metaphors).

Thank you for the tip, I should read some informations about the inner workings of the Roman Senate. The Roman Empire Senate must have met with the same difficulties because of its size and its power was as limited as the Third Imperium Moot.

As you point out, the travel times for representatives to get messages back to their sponsors and expect a reply are such that the Johnnies on the Spot have a fair amount of latertude in which to represent their sponsors. Then it comes down to personalities, experience, and how much control the sponsor group expects to weild over their representative.

But YMMV.

The least I can say is that being a representative is not an easy task!

 

[Ishvar]

IIRC the Moot also can dissolv the Empire/Withdraw the Emperorship

True, but when such a decision is about to be taken it is either voted by a host of representatives or either by the nobles themselves. In either cases one will have to wait until the instructions come back or the nobles gather which can take as long as two years (the time for the informations to reach the border and the time needed to cross the Imperium to Capital/Core and to debate about the corresponding issue.

What is going on while everybody is waiting? Rebellion...

:shock:

 

[rust]

I think that at least the more powerful nobles would have jump-6 ships at
their command, and that they would allow their lesser nobles to use these
for communication with Capital, too. So the travel times should probably
be a little (but only a little) less disrupting.

In the end, something like the Moot would probably not work under "rea-
listic" conditions. I see it as something like FTL drives and contragravs, a
part of the Third Imperium setting that exists for metagaming reasons,
but with hardly any plausibility in itself.

 

[Ishvar]

I think that at least the more powerful nobles would have jump-6 ships at
their command, and that they would allow their lesser nobles to use these
for communication with Capital, too. So the travel times should probably
be a little (but only a little) less disrupting.

I agree with you though, given the nature of humankind, I would rather think the more powerful nobles would use it as an advantage over the lesser nobles (unless the said transported lesser nobles are voting the "right" way of course).

In the end, something like the Moot would probably not work under "realistic" conditions. I see it as something like FTL drives and contragravs, a part of the Third Imperium setting that exists for metagaming reasons, but with hardly any plausibility in itself.

I rather see the Moot as a surviving body from the earlier history of the Third Imperium, when its size was much smaller and thus such an assembly more viable. It would exist more because it is a long standing traditional meeting place rather than anything else.

In the same way it could fill the same role as a tradition in ancient China when officials had the "right" to travel to the capital and raise a formal protest (before being beheaded I guess).

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

"How does the Moot work?"

Not very well.

Most major nobles will have proxies. The Proxy will spend most of his life representing a region that he never sees. He might have guidelines from the home sector, but actual contact will be very rare.

The Moot DOESN'T do much when it comes to running the Imperium. That is for the Navy and the Megacorps. The Sector Dukes (and Domain Arch-Dukes) are the real power. Even there, they are disconnected from their sub-sectors by weeks.

The Sector Duke has about the same amount of control over a specific world in a sub-sector as King George did over the American Colonies or the King of Spain had over the South American Colonies: essentially none.

BUT, the IDEA of the Imperium is what holds everything together. Like the Roman Empire, the Emperor has to rely on subordinates to run their parts of the Imperium and not rebel. Most Sub-Sector Dukes have probably never even met the Emperor personally. Most Sector Dukes have probably only met him once or twice.

Only in the Core Sector(s) will the influence of the Emperor really be felt.

 

[lurker]

Not the same, but think of some of the functions of the monarchy of the United Kingdom.
- the making of the rules for the government and regulation of the civil service and the armed forces. In Traveller: making of the rules for noble service, interstellar travel, trade, and Imperial forces.
- dissolution of parliament. In Traveller: removing rulers (nobles or even local governments) who are acting against the emperor.
- may unilaterally dismiss a Prime Minister, but convention and precedent tightly restrict such an action. In Traveller: remove the emperor from power
- appointing a new Prime Minister. In Traveller: appointing/electing a new emperor.

also
- issue passports, make treaties or send ambassadors, and to defend the realm

 

[GamerDude]

I keep imagining what would happen if someone in a TU actually invented a form of FTL communication. In the HERO system setting "Terran Empire" they have one, but it doesn't mean instantaneous communications over extreme distances, but you can communicate way faster than sending information back and forth by ship.

But then again, with FTL communication, it wouldn't be TRAVELLER

 

[Ishvar]

"How does the Moot work?"

Not very well.

Most major nobles will have proxies. The Proxy will spend most of his life representing a region that he never sees. He might have guidelines from the home sector, but actual contact will be very rare.

This is the way I think it should work. I suppose that the representative is often a truthful member of the noble's retinue.

In France, during the Middle Ages, the first son inherited the title, a second son would often start a military carreer while the third son would join a religious order. Back to the third Imperium, we can imagine that the second son/daughter is often trained to become the representative of the noble at the Moot.

 

[Ishvar]

Not the same, but think of some of the functions of the monarchy of the United Kingdom.
- the making of the rules for the government and regulation of the civil service and the armed forces. In Traveller: making of the rules for noble service, interstellar travel, trade, and Imperial forces.
- dissolution of parliament. In Traveller: removing rulers (nobles or even local governments) who are acting against the emperor.
- may unilaterally dismiss a Prime Minister, but convention and precedent tightly restrict such an action. In Traveller: remove the emperor from power
- appointing a new Prime Minister. In Traveller: appointing/electing a new emperor.

also
- issue passports, make treaties or send ambassadors, and to defend the realm

You are right there are a lot of things that can be learnt from our own history. But this is not the range of power in the hands of the Moot that bothers me, it is rather the way the Moot can assume its task and how it is handled that bother me.

In other words, I am trying to figure out a convincing way to present such an institution and to understand how the travel lengths have moulded it. What kind of traditions or mechanisms have been developped by the nobles to adapt its working? How is the Moot perceived by the nobles, those from the border sectors and those from the inner parts of the Imperium? How are the border nobles managing their representation on Core? Do the lesser nobles group themselves to mutualize their assets and maintain a representation? Is the imperium himself helping these nobles with boarding facilities and/or special accomodations?

 

[Ishvar]

I keep imagining what would happen if someone in a TU actually invented a form of FTL communication. In the HERO system setting "Terran Empire" they have one, but it doesn't mean instantaneous communications over extreme distances, but you can communicate way faster than sending information back and forth by ship.

But then again, with FTL communication, it wouldn't be TRAVELLER

It would be a MTU or YTU but I really think it would still be Traveller.

FTL communications is one of the changes I am thinking about since I know Traveller.

It could change almost nothing or everything. First of all, I think it would strengthen the bonds between the citizens of the Imperium, the latter would be more present in their daily life and thus somehow closer, a bit more "real" to them. The action of the bureaucracy and of the various military forces would be far better planned.

Would it change a lot for the characters? Not so much in my opinion, because the Xboats are already travelling faster than most of the ships the characters can put their dirty hands on.

But on the Imperium, I think that the answer can be different if you consider why the Imperium has been built that way. If you think that member worlds are allowed to have their own policy because it is the only way to control a vast territory with important communication lags like those in the Third Imperium, introducing a FTL communication technology should change everything. The Imperium would have better means to enforce a direct control on the member worlds.

But if you consider that the current organization is the result of a long standing tradition or political vision, then introducing FTL communications would not change things that much. Moreover, if it is restricted (because of the costs and technology involved) to official and/or important communications it can even add a lot of coherence to the Third Imperium... that would allow the Moot to do its job efficiently thanks to the nobles' representatives.

Though the Hero system is not my cup of tea (far too many rules for my own taste) I really like the Terran Empire. Some aliens would make for good Traveller minor races.

 

[StephenT]

I think there's one important thing to remember:

The members of the Moot are not delegates; they're representatives.

That's the whole basis of the way the Third Imperium runs. You don't send a delegate to the central government, give him detailed instructions and expect him to carry out your wishes exactly, because that would never work. (The same way the Emperor can't expect to micromanage the affairs of each subsector from his palace on Capital). Instead, you choose somebody you trust, somebody you know shares your basic view of the world, and give him your Proxy Vote. You then just leave him to make his own decisions and vote the way he chooses in the Moot, in the confidence that at least most of the time, he'll be voting the way you would have.

Likewise, the Moot is not a legislative or administrative body; it doesn't govern. It's consultative, and it represents the views of the Imperial Nobility, as a collective body, rather than the views of the Imperium as a whole. Emperors bounce ideas for new laws off the Moot to ensure that the people they will have to trust to enforce those laws agree with them. They ask for suggestions and proposals for improvement too, on the understanding that these are not binding.

Incidentally, according to GT:Nobles many members of the Moot are actually older, retired nobles who've passed most of their titles on to their heir. They keep one title - just enough to still qualify for the Moot - and go to spend the rest of their lives in luxury on Capital.

 

[Ishvar]

I think there's one important thing to remember:

The members of the Moot are not delegates; they're representatives.

That's the whole basis of the way the Third Imperium runs. You don't send a delegate to the central government, give him detailed instructions and expect him to carry out your wishes exactly, because that would never work. (The same way the Emperor can't expect to micromanage the affairs of each subsector from his palace on Capital). Instead, you choose somebody you trust, somebody you know shares your basic view of the world, and give him your Proxy Vote. You then just leave him to make his own decisions and vote the way he chooses in the Moot, in the confidence that at least most of the time, he'll be voting the way you would have.

Likewise, the Moot is not a legislative or administrative body; it doesn't govern. It's consultative, and it represents the views of the Imperial Nobility, as a collective body, rather than the views of the Imperium as a whole. Emperors bounce ideas for new laws off the Moot to ensure that the people they will have to trust to enforce those laws agree with them. They ask for suggestions and proposals for improvement too, on the understanding that these are not binding.

Incidentally, according to GT:Nobles many members of the Moot are actually older, retired nobles who've passed most of their titles on to their heir. They keep one title - just enough to still qualify for the Moot - and go to spend the rest of their lives in luxury on Capital.

Thanks for the reminder StephenT.

Fortunately, the Moot isn't a legislative body made of delegates, voting an Imperial law would be a rather difficult process :
- Law project
- Debate over the law
- Agreement on the project that will be sent to the individual world authority
- Final vote (one or two years later)

I am not sure that the Moot is representing the nobility views only. Each Imperial world is represented by a noble who is in charge of the interest of his world. This representative is a noble and is thus holding a sit at the Moot.

Who is the noble or his representative acting for :

- The noble himself
- The represented world
- Both the noble and the imperial world

Of course, if we consider that imperial wide matters only are debated at the Moot, there will not be conflicting interests in most of the cases.

 

[Ishvar]

Sorry Double Post after an attempt to edit the previous post actually resulting in a quotation of the said post.

 

[Shiloh]

I am not sure that the Moot is representing the nobility views only. Each Imperial world is represented by a noble who is in charge of the interest of his world. This representative is a noble and is thus holding a sit at the Moot.

Who is the noble or his representative acting for :

- The noble himself
- The represented world
- Both the noble and the imperial world

I think that depends largely on the attitude of the Noble to their Fief. Some may see the two interests inextricably intertwined. Others may see their interests as paramount, with the Fief there to be exploited as far as possible, and others might see the two as separate issues most of the time.

Of course, if we consider that imperial wide matters only are debated at the Moot, there will not be conflicting interests in most of the cases.

If the Moot is considering changes in Imperial Policy, sometimes that's going to affect how the world interacts with the Imperium at large.

 

[kafka]

The Moot is not the Senate of Rome...it is more akin to the Feudal Parliaments of Europe or better yet China. It is designed to provide the means for the bureaucracy to get laws through with a nominal degree of consent...unless you are in the Core sector, you are unlikely to hear that the Moot has issued a proclamation. Rather you might hear of the Sector Diet passing some legislation (in reality directives from the Emperor/Moot) or more likely the Subsector Landsraad or simply a degree from the planetary Head of State/Noble.

 

[dayriff]

I am not sure that the Moot is representing the nobility views only. Each Imperial world is represented by a noble who is in charge of the interest of his world. This representative is a noble and is thus holding a sit at the Moot.

Who is the noble or his representative acting for :

- The noble himself
- The represented world
- Both the noble and the imperial world

Of course, if we consider that imperial wide matters only are debated at the Moot, there will not be conflicting interests in most of the cases.

What are the interests of the represented world in this context? Worlds are self-governing, so I would guess it would be things like:

1. Building/upkeep/upgrade of starports

2. Insterstellar tariffs for various items

3. Deployment of military forces (in the long term strategic sense)

4. Regulation of multi-world corporations

 

[Shiloh]

What are the interests of the represented world in this context? Worlds are self-governing, so I would guess it would be things like:
[snip]

5. Levels of taxes levied by the Imperium on world governments in return for membership. Though I suppose this might be a matter for each world individually, under its Imperial Charter.

 

[Ishvar]

Be careful, the subject is how can it work not how does it work?