The Lion of the Galaxy: Reforging the Centauri

[Right Hand of God]

I am sorry but you cannot possibly design a game based on what you see on screen. That would mean that 90% of the ships we play with wouldn't exist. It would also mean that the Minbari would win every encounter unless there is a Shadow or Vorlon ship present.

It's an abstract game played within that universe and that is the best that can be hoped for and represented on the table top.

 

[Locutus9956]

I am sorry but you cannot possibly design a game based on what you see on screen. That would mean that 90% of the ships we play with wouldn't exist. It would also mean that the Minbari would win every encounter unless there is a Shadow or Vorlon ship present.

It's an abstract game played within that universe and that is the best that can be hoped for and represented on the table top.

I'll be blunt here so appologies in advance but thats a steaming pile of arse.

Thats precies the point of having a PL system (or points in B5Wars) The Minbari FLEET would win any war as per the show (the average battle in the EM war was say 3 Hyperions and a Nova vs 6 Sharlins.....

Sure there are added ships for variety but they should at least be true to the STYLE of the show. The shadows and Vorlons in my oppinion, since armageddon now DO perform like they do on the show. Of course some ships are WAY better than others as per the show but thats the point of having them cost different amounts!

The average main line ship for the Minbari is War level, the Average for Centauri Narn and EA in series era is Battle. The average level of their most common ship of the line for Vorlons and Shadows is ARMAGEDDON.

And LASTLY if the game isnt like the show then what on earth is the point in playing a B5 Wargame if it doesnt play like B5.

Sorry to go off the deepend here, but that comment is simply ridiculous. If you dont desing it based of what we see on screen then what DO you base it off? Perhaps we should just desing random ships and write sharlin and omega on them? Or maybe we should go encounter the Minbari for real? Oh wait, its fictional. Think about this one for a minute, how many players of ACTA do you HONESTLY think DIDNT get into the game because of the B5 licence? : :evil:

EDIT: Appologies for the snappiness, It's been a pretty slow day and Im not in the best of moods :twisted:

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I'll be blunt here so appologies in advance but thats a steaming pile of arse.

Thats precies the point of having a PL system (or points in B5Wars) The Minbari FLEET would win any war as per the show (the average battle in the EM war was say 3 Hyperions and a Nova vs 6 Sharlins.....

Sure there are added ships for variety but they should at least be true to the STYLE of the show. The shadows and Vorlons in my oppinion, since armageddon now DO perform like they do on the show. Of course some ships are WAY better than others as per the show but thats the point of having them cost different amounts!

The average main line ship for the Minbari is War level, the Average for Centauri Narn and EA in series era is Battle. The average level of their most common ship of the line for Vorlons and Shadows is ARMAGEDDON.

And LASTLY if the game isnt like the show then what on earth is the point in playing a B5 Wargame if it doesnt play like B5.

Sorry to go off the deepend here, but that comment is simply ridiculous. If you dont desing it based of what we see on screen then what DO you base it off? Perhaps we should just desing random ships and write sharlin and omega on them? Or maybe we should go encounter the Minbari for real? Oh wait, its fictional. Think about this one for a minute, how many players of ACTA do you HONESTLY think DIDNT get into the game because of the B5 licence? : :evil:

EDIT: Appologies for the snappiness, It's been a pretty slow day and Im not in the best of moods :twisted:

Agree completely.

 

[emperorpenguin]

I am sorry but you cannot possibly design a game based on what you see on screen. That would mean that 90% of the ships we play with wouldn't exist. It would also mean that the Minbari would win every encounter unless there is a Shadow or Vorlon ship present.

It's an abstract game played within that universe and that is the best that can be hoped for and represented on the table top.

I'll be blunt here so appologies in advance but thats a steaming pile of arse.

Thats precies the point of having a PL system (or points in B5Wars) The Minbari FLEET would win any war as per the show (the average battle in the EM war was say 3 Hyperions and a Nova vs 6 Sharlins.....

Sure there are added ships for variety but they should at least be true to the STYLE of the show. The shadows and Vorlons in my oppinion, since armageddon now DO perform like they do on the show. Of course some ships are WAY better than others as per the show but thats the point of having them cost different amounts!

The average main line ship for the Minbari is War level, the Average for Centauri Narn and EA in series era is Battle. The average level of their most common ship of the line for Vorlons and Shadows is ARMAGEDDON.

And LASTLY if the game isnt like the show then what on earth is the point in playing a B5 Wargame if it doesnt play like B5.

Sorry to go off the deepend here, but that comment is simply ridiculous. If you dont desing it based of what we see on screen then what DO you base it off? Perhaps we should just desing random ships and write sharlin and omega on them? Or maybe we should go encounter the Minbari for real? Oh wait, its fictional. Think about this one for a minute, how many players of ACTA do you HONESTLY think DIDNT get into the game because of the B5 licence? : :evil:

EDIT: Appologies for the snappiness, It's been a pretty slow day and Im not in the best of moods :twisted:

Agree with you Locutus, that statement by Right hand of God is (to be blunt) the most stupid thing I've heard in a long time
:roll: :shock:

 

[emperorpenguin]

I am quite surprised by how many people have voted for scrapping beams altogether. Where were you all when that was discussed last year!? :lol:

Looks like there is a strong feeling towards making the Centauri better reflect the show (fingers crossed Matt will take notice)

 

[Burger]

Totally agree with Locutus too, except I know some people who didn't get into the game because of the B5 license. Hash got into the game cos Reaverman and I bullied him into it

 

[Locutus9956]

Weeeeell Id have to count that as getting into the game cos of the B5 liscence by proxy

I know a few people that applies to here too Of course most of them subsequently also got badgered into watching the show too

 

[Alexb83]

For myself, I got into the game because I like space/fleet gaming, and I didn't want to start playing BFG. I do play full thrust, but I find that game system somewhat... lacking.

I watched B5 when I was younger, and I was pleasantly surprised to find that there was a game based on it, that it was well supported, had good minis and a refreshing set of rules (compared to Full Thrust).

I haven't played it much yet, (though hopefully I will get more chances to in the future). But just looking over the rules, yes, some fleets dont represent what we do see on screen. Some are complete abstractions (like the Abbai) since we /never/ see them on screen. But that's fine. JMS provided a good deal of info on the fleets, down to their crew complements, weapons, etc. etc.

He also said that in any given race, there are ships that you never would see on screen. In the E-M war for example (and indeed throughout the series), you only ever see Sharlins, Flyers and Nials from the Minbari. Does that mean that those are the only ships the Minbari make or use? No, and JMS said as much, leaving it open for licensed game designers to expand it along practical lines.

The Minbari didn't lose any engagements in the E-M war because they used their best ships (the most advanced in the galaxy next to the Vorlons) and dedicated their entire industrial and military might to the war. In a more 'peacetime' scenario (where CTA sits, with border skirmishes etc.), it stands to reason that they wouldn't have these massive resources available, and so their best ships are relegated to higher PLs, and they are obliged to rely on their smaller/weaker ships.

 

[Target]

They won every engagement because the had equal numbers War ships vs Raid and Skirmish ships.

 

[Alexb83]

In 'real life' of the B5 universe, there are no such things as 'war' or 'raid' priority levels. The best the Minbari have went up against the best that Earth had. That being the case, you could say it was War vs. War (the highest each race had within their own fleets).

Again, I point out: The Minbari had far greater resources, more numerous ships, technology about 1000 years in advance of the EA, and were hell bent on the total destruction of the human race. You can't equate their ships very well at all, unless you start playing scenarios where the Minbari have 20 FAPs at War, and the EA are restricted to 10.

But the other point I was attempting to make is this: under normal circumstances, the Minbari would not be able to devote all of their hundreds or thousands of ships to a single point in space at any one time. There are smaller ships than Sharlins, and ones more suited to border patrols or small engagements.

This is nicely represented by the fact that the best you can hope to field in a 5pt raid game is one sharlin, with perhaps 1-3 supporting ships. Or a mix of 5 or so smaller ships and supporting craft.

They're really hamstrung by their lack of lower PL ships - something which I think needs rectifying (as we see in LotR, the minbari have built several other classes of 'patrol ship' next to the Torotha).

 

[LaranosTZ]

Well, my point wasn't necessarily to cripple both ships, but to at least give examples of what I was suggesting by providing actual stats for them. Don't provide a complaint without a solution and all that. My idea was to provide a basis for debate, and give reasoned arguments for the changes, you then tweak the stats appropriately.

I think I may have gone too far in the direction I wanted to go, but I also think there is some reasonable merit for my arguments. If you want to refute my ideas though, let's toss up some other ideas for stats.

 

[Alexb83]

Well, my point wasn't necessarily to cripple both ships, but to at least give examples of what I was suggesting by providing actual stats for them. Don't provide a complaint without a solution and all that. My idea was to provide a basis for debate, and give reasoned arguments for the changes, you then tweak the stats appropriately.

I think I may have gone too far in the direction I wanted to go, but I also think there is some reasonable merit for my arguments. If you want to refute my ideas though, let's toss up some other ideas for stats.

Larantos, I wasn't aiming my comments at you, but rather at RHOG, who made some very fundamental but IMO poorly thought out arguments against the PL system and the very notion of different fleets having different strengths and weaknesses (heavens forfend!).

 

[emperorpenguin]

I'm now wondering if it was wrong to include "no beams at all" as an option! I guess those who voted that way could be classed as unhappy with the status quo and more powerful pulse type weapons would make them happier.

So at present with Locutus switching sides :lol: we have 20 for, 10 against, 2 abstentions and 9 who might be happy to see the volley fire improved

Must confess I wasn't sure it'd be such a big difference, but very pleased

 

[rbax]

Considering the semi-pro B5Wars rant I just posted on another thread, I'll serve up a quick change-up and say I'd like to see Centauri Beams gone as well.

I can face facts. Never centauri unit ever fire a beam weapon in the course of the show. Of-course there were only really every two ships shown. The Primus which we saw fire once, and the Vorchan/Demos/"Kill Narn Cruiser in One Pass Ship from Hell." But in no case did they fire any beams.

An intersting factoid. AoG wasn't going to go with Lasers for the Centauri until Netter-Digital and company pointed at the long antenna's at the front of the Primus and called them lasers. Since Netter-Digitial was supposedly a source canon information, AoG felt bound to give the Centauri Lasers.

Sadly Netter-Digital has said alot of things and are largely responsble for the whole whitestar on steriods problem....but then they are only a special effects team and not really experts in ship construciton and design.

--- Rich

 

[Ripple]

Only reason I voted for keeping any beams was so much fluff has already been written but if we are going to go by the show (yes please) you could scrap them all and I'd just as happy. I just want the Centauri to be pulse based as that is what we see over and over. When it is heavy, ion or twin is only somewhat relevant to me.

Ripple

 

[emperorpenguin]

Never centauri unit ever fire a beam weapon in the course of the show. Of-course there were only really every two ships shown. The Primus which we saw fire once, and the Vorchan/Demos/"Kill Narn Cruiser in One Pass Ship from Hell." But in no case did they fire any beams.

I agree though we saw the Primus fire twice, just to be pedantic! "Fall of Night" and "And now for a word"

An intersting factoid. AoG wasn't going to go with Lasers for the Centauri until Netter-Digital and company pointed at the long antenna's at the front of the Primus and called them lasers. Since Netter-Digitial was supposedly a source canon information, AoG felt bound to give the Centauri Lasers.

This I well believe. I also firmly believe the Alexander was supposed to fire pulse weapons at the Clarkstown but Netter made up an excuse there too, the PSB that was the energy grid

 

[emperorpenguin]

Only reason I voted for keeping any beams was so much fluff has already been written but if we are going to go by the show (yes please) you could scrap them all and I'd just as happy. I just want the Centauri to be pulse based as that is what we see over and over. When it is heavy, ion or twin is only somewhat relevant to me.

Ripple

That is how I have come to see it. Kind of like the shuriken catapult for Eldar in 40K. The idea of a dying race with advanced tech fielding such a short range weapon is ridiculous but years of precedent make it accepted.

I'd prefer no Centauri beams but years of precedent now say they do have them, so toning down the lasers and improving the weapon we all know and love from the show is the "compromise" candidate