The Lion of the Galaxy: Reforging the Centauri

[emperorpenguin]

Well in response to a healthy debate which has resurfaced on this board I thought it time we get some kind of feeling from people as to just how much support there is for redesigning the Centauri fleet.

In the past the old debate of beams vs no beams has periodicly resurfaced and we appear to have been at loggerheads. What is different this time is that it appears that many of us fanheads are now agreed that we'd like the Centauri to play how they appear on screen and can compromise by not totally eliminating the laser beams.

With the release of the Primus ship plans (which label twin arrays as the long wished for on screen canon "ion cannons") and the current perception that the Centauri fleet (based around Primus/Tertius, Sulust and Prefect) has become a bit one dimensional and the new "tournament fleet" there appears to be a desire to reconcile the Republic in game terms with that shown on screen.

The idea gaining some popularity seems to be that the current battle lasers would drop in power to become an auxiliary weapon rather than the slicer of doom it currently is, bringing the weapon into line with Abbai combat lasers, a weapon based on the Centauri battle laser according to the background. This would also better fit the background stating that Narn (and thus EA) lasers are souped up versions of Centauri tech.

Instead the current light weapon (the twin array) would become the more powerful ion cannon of the show and the Centauri would become a more close to mid range knife fighting fleet. Rather than standing off and blasting opponents with long range CAF!'d 90 degree battle lasers they would instead work as seen on screen, throwing out lots of interceptible fire from closer in, with the lasers adding to the punch rather than BEING the punch.

I'm not posting stats as these are open to interpretation and subject to playtesting but ideas are presented in this thread http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=17962

What are your opinions on this?

 

[H]

Difficult, It would mean a fundamental re-design of most ships, the primus, choosing a well argued over piece of kit, has every chance of exploding hideously in a close in fight with say a narn fleet, who kick out a lot close up. By changing to this style, the centauri do become weaker than currently, and I suspect a lot of work would be needed to A) Balance the new fleet again, and B) NOT make it a Narn clone. On that basis, I would like them to stay as is, however on the basis that the battle laser is just to damned good, I demand a change! hmmm, I'm arguing myself out of my own position ;-) OK, descision time, I will say leave as is, as much as I hate the battle laser screwing me over regularly, it does at least give the centauri a "feel" in the game.

 

[emperorpenguin]

they certainly lose some range (except for ballistic torpedo ships)

but I'm arguing for gaining precise to the laser which will compensate for loss of range.
The narn currently suffer at range (due to boresighting) and some people have expressed fears that with no interceptors they'd actually be weaker versus ion cannons!

I'm trying for a "fragile but with nasty punch" feel

as for balancing them, I'm bringing this up now on the eve of 2nd ed playtesting, if we don't get the Centauri changed to reflect on-screen canon now we never will!
This is the last chance fanheads!

 

[Locutus9956]

Its a nice idea in theory but I still like the Centauir the way they are. I got into ACTA basically looking for a sort of quick play B5Wars. I felt that AoG had got the background and feel of the B5 universe and ships pretty much spot on but the game took soooo long to play....

Enter ACTA. Now a few things changed about the Centauri but by and large I like them the way they are. Possibly the Vorchan could use slightly sharper teeth and the Demos DEFINITELY could but I dont see the need to completely redesign the fleet. Besisdes just becuase they never FIRED their lasers in the show doesnt mean they dont have them, after all we only ever see a Centauri ship thats not a Vrochan or vairent thereof, firing a couple of times and in one case I dont think the Narn ship would even have been in arc for the primus to use its lasers if it ever intended to

 

[Rynar]

More blasting, less beaming!!!
Saying this as an EA player who can intercept the blasts, not the beams

 

[Lord David the Denied]

My vote should be obvious, given my position in the discussion. It will take work to make the Centauri play effectively without their death rays, but I think it's a worthy goal. Moving ACtA towards the original source material is its own reward, I think, and we'd cetainly hear less bitching about the Centauri "beam team" sweeping all before them.

Doing this also gives the Morgrath a chance to shine with the plasma stream becoming a decent weapon. Currently, it's just a poor man's battle laser, and when you can have a Darkner for the same cost as a Morgrath who wants the poor man's choice?

As another angle, the Adira would become more exceptional with its Drakh-based nuetron cannon making an effective beam in a fleet with only light beam weapons. Yet more evidence of the corruption of the Centauri Republic at the Drakh's hands.

 

[emperorpenguin]

Besisdes just becuase they never FIRED their lasers in the show doesnt mean they dont have them, after all we only ever see a Centauri ship thats not a Vrochan or vairent thereof, firing a couple of times and in one case I dont think the Narn ship would even have been in arc for the primus to use its lasers if it ever intended to

valid argument.

though the Primus was in arc and the G'quan fired OUT of arc! :lol:


I started playing using the Earthforce sourcebook "Full Thrust" rules so I miss the unique style the Centauri had in that

 

[emperorpenguin]

Moving ACtA towards the original source material is its own reward, I think, and we'd cetainly hear less bitching about the Centauri "beam team" sweeping all before them

.

Agreed, as close to on screen as possible should be the goal of any franchise based game.
"Beam Team" :lol: that's a good term!

Doing this also gives the Morgrath a chance to shine with the plasma stream becoming a decent weapon. Currently, it's just a poor man's battle laser, and when you can have a Darkner for the same cost as a Morgrath who wants the poor man's choice?

Absolutely agree

 

[B5freak]

I like the idea of getting rid of the lasers or, at most, putting them on only a few select ships to maintain the link to the Abbai Combat Laser.

Of course, in the show we only ever saw two hull types, the Primus and the Vorchan. I'd be interested to hear from those who've read the B5 novels if there's any supporting evidence for other ships and weapon systems.

I think the Twin-Arrays are a good close-in weapon, and the Heavy Array (assume Twin-Linked, Double-Damage with 12-15" range) makes for a good primary weapon. That would certainly match what we saw when that Primus/Secundus attacked B5.

We have one reference to Ion weaponry in the show, from a statement by G'Kar. He says they're "weapons of mass destruction" but doesn't elaborate. From B5 Wars, we get the idea that Ion weapons put out a lot of radiation, so only radiation-tolerant species such as the Centauri tend to field them. Question is, what kind of offensive capability is all that radiation being used to generate, or more importantly, what do we want the Ion weapons to do? Narn Ion Torpedoes are Super AP and Precise, but that just doesn't seem to fit the description.

Just throwing out ideas here:

So, what if the Centauri, being the ever-practical types that they are, decided to build a weapon that could be used to incapacitate an enemy ship without actually causing irreversable damage to the ship's structure? The Neutron Bomb (see below) gives us a good modern parallel, but it's not directional. They already have particle weapons (Twin and Heavy Array), so what if they decided to create a variant capable of firing ionized radioisotopes instead of electrons/protons/etc (please note, definitely moving from science to science-fiction here) to create a directional "neutron bomb" effect?

In game terms, I'd envision a single damage weapon that causes double the crew loss from Solid Hits. Yes, adding a new mechanic, but while we're playing, why not throw all the cards on the table.

1. Ion[\b] - An ion is an atom or group of atoms that normally are electrically neutral and achieve their status as an ion by loss (or addition) of an electron.
2. Ion Drive[\b] - One of several types of spacecraft propulsion, uses beams of ions for propulsion. The precise method for accelerating the ions may vary, but all designs take advantage of the charge-to-mass ratio of ions to accelerate them to very high velocities using a high electric field.
3. Particle Beam[\b] - An accelerated stream of charged particles or atoms (often moving at very near the speed of light) which may be directed by magnets and focused by electrostatic lenses, although they may also be self-focusing (see Pinch (plasma physics)).
4. Radioisotope[\b] - An atom with an unstable nucleus. The radionuclide undergoes radioactive decay by emitting a gamma ray(s) and/or subatomic particles. If radioisotopes are released into the environment, through accident, poor disposal, or other means, they can potentially cause harmful effects of radioactive contamination. They can also cause damage if they are excessively used during treatment or in other ways applied to living beings. This is called radiation poisoning. Radioisotopes can also cause malfunction of electrical devices.
5. Neutron Bomb[\b] - Also called enhanced radiation bombs (ER weapons), are small thermonuclear weapons in which the burst of neutrons generated by the fusion reaction is intentionally not absorbed inside the weapon, but allowed to escape. The term "enhanced radiation" refers only to the burst of ionizing radiation released at the moment of detonation, not to any enhancement of residual radiation in fallout. Tactical neutron bombs are primarily intended to kill soldiers who are protected by armor. Armored vehicles are extremely resistant to blast and heat produced by nuclear weapons, so the effective range of a nuclear weapon against tanks is determined by the lethal range of the radiation, although this is also reduced by the armor. By emitting large amounts of lethal radiation of the most penetrating kind, ER warheads maximize the lethal range of a given yield of nuclear warhead against armored targets. The neutron flux can induce significant amounts of short-lived secondary radioactivity in the environment in the high flux region near the burst point. The alloys used in steel armor can develop radioactivity that is dangerous for 24-48 hours. If a tank exposed to a 1 kt neutron bomb at 690 m (the effective range for immediate crew incapacitation) is immediately occupied by a new crew, they will receive a lethal dose of radiation within 24 hours.

 

[emperorpenguin]

We have one reference to Ion weaponry in the show, from a statement by G'Kar. He says they're "weapons of mass destruction" but doesn't elaborate

.

Actually two references just to be picky! He says in "Acts of Sacrifice" "it's easy to be brave when you don't have a centauri ion cannon pointed at your head"

Given the Secundus and Demos were AOG's attempts at retconning Centauri vessels to better fit the show I think that the Heavy Array of Mongoose works so Double Damage and Twin linked.

The ship plans for the Primus call the twin arrays "dual ion cannons" and from what we saw them do to B5, White Stars, Aviokis and G'Quans they look fearsome.

I've gone from wanting no beams to supporting this idea cos I think it's a great way of representing what we see on screen but without throwing the baby out with the bath water

 

[Locutus9956]

though the Primus was in arc and the G'quan fired OUT of arc! :lol:

Ah but again in B5Wars the G'Quans lasers DID have that arc

The problem arises in the other instance we see a Primus firing when it targets a Narn cruiser and B5 at the same time (and Sheridan promplty blows it 'straight to hell' :twisted: ). In that scene the Priums is slowly closing on the station with the Narn ship and B5 both cleary in the forward arc if they HAD battle lasers the captain would have been nuts not to use them in that situation (though he did attack a heavily armed station on his own so actually thats not that implausible...)

Nonetheless its basically that scene that's the reason we have the Secundus (as Im sure you all know already).

My point is, that as ever the AoG fluff was 100% consistend with what was seen on scree. In fact the Centauri WERENT the laser monkeys they are in ACTA in B5Wars, their big killing weapon was mainly twin arrays, heavy arrays, and Plasma accelerators (and to some extent matter cannons, but mainly it was massed twin arrays of doom)

To extend and clarify that point Id personally love to see the centauri beamyness toned down and give them more twin arrays and heavy arrays. Make the Vorchan the staple ship of the fleet not the Primus, thats what we saw on the show after all

And lastly, Id always assumed G'Kar was talking about the centauri infantry weapons when he refered to that 'ion cannons pointed at peoples heads'

 

[emperorpenguin]

which is the strength of this idea, we get to keep the lasers (keeping those who like them happy) while getting better rapid fire weapons (better reflecting the show, B5 Wars and Earthforce sourcebook)

and I get my wish to finally get the name "ion cannon" attached to centauri ships! :lol:

 

[emperorpenguin]

And lastly, Id always assumed G'Kar was talking about the centauri infantry weapons when he refered to that 'ion cannons pointed at peoples heads'

Certainly in the context of that statement you'd be forgiven for thinking so, but it's clear from "And now for a word" that they are a ship based weapon (along with mass drivers and fusion bombs)

They are mentioned as weapons in the Primus Ship Plans and Centauri Factbook too

Oh and I agree, I would like the "wolfpack" Centauri! At present the "beam team" (thanks LDTD!) is a no brainer

 

[Locutus9956]

Yup. Agree completely on the style of fleet. I personally think Mongoose got the Narn and Centauri play styles a bit backwards (though theyre both perfectly good fleets I just like it to go back to the Centauri relying on wolf packs of Vorchans and Demos and the occasional Priums supporting them and the Narn fleet consisting mainly of heavy lumbering battleships that blast away with lasers and emines and chuck their heavy fighters into the fray.

I actually voted option one but now youve clarified what you meant by the second option Id sooner have that version. However I prefer the Ion cannons to be rapid firing (lots of AD) rather than heavy hitting (im thinking twin linked, SAP and a big chunk of AD but thats it or maybe just AP and SAP for heavy versions)

Certainly in the context of that statement you'd be forgiven for thinking so, but it's clear from "And now for a word" that they are a ship based weapon (along with mass drivers and fusion bombs)

It's not so much the statement itself that made me think that but later on when Londo's guards shoot Mr. Morden's "ascociate" those just screamed 'ion cannon' to me (also gives a fairly good idea of why the centauri are so good at invading worlds, their not just powerful in their fleet, their ground forces are very nasty (and look how they fight hand to hand in the big brawl in the middle of 'the long twilight struggle' that one centauri who starts beating up that Narn is a freakin NINJA

 

[emperorpenguin]

I. However I prefer the Ion cannons to be rapid firing (lots of AD) rather than heavy hitting (im thinking twin linked, SAP and a big chunk of AD but thats it or maybe just AP and SAP for heavy versions)

They still would be as many dice as twin arrays if not more (depends on how the lasers pan out)

Originally i thought AP on Ion cannons but

1) twin-linked AP or superAP seems sick! :twisted:

2) the Narn have weal twin arrays (and therefore would have weak ion cannons), you can't have weak & AP/superAP

 

[emperorpenguin]

It's not so much the statement itself that made me think that but later on when Londo's guards shoot Mr. Morden's "ascociate" those just screamed 'ion cannon' to me (also gives a fairly good idea of why the centauri are so good at invading worlds, their not just powerful in their fleet, their ground forces are very nasty (and look how they fight hand to hand in the big brawl in the middle of 'the long twilight struggle' that one centauri who starts beating up that Narn is a freakin NINJA

yeah those guns look cool! but only PPGs according to the background!

there was something very funny about a guy in a foppish shirt with stupid hair doing a Jet Li on some Narn! :lol:

 

[Locutus9956]

yeah it WOULD be sick but no worse than 6AD of SAP DD Beam at 30".....

and as for the Nanrs, Id drop the weak personally anyway, I never DID like that (or if you dont want to get into tweaking the Narns, just have the Ion Cannons as twin arrays are currently but up the range slightly (and number of AD) and drop the beams down ALOT (Id still HAVE battle lasers on the Primus and Id still keep the same traits but maybe drop it to 2AD and 25 AD of forward Twin Arrays/Ion Cannons or something :twisted: (these are arbitrary numbers btw I havent given them any serious thought )

 

[emperorpenguin]

yeah it WOULD be sick but no worse than 6AD of SAP DD Beam at 30".....
)

only 25" on the Primus but 35" on the Octurion!

 

[Captain Kremmen]

I support anything that brings any race closer to the way they were in the show.

We are playing a B5 game, most of us liked the B5 series, we play this game because of it's connection to the series. Not just because it is a good space combat game, (which it is)

Cpt Kremmen

 

[Locutus9956]

Ah well, I never really noticed the difference much when theyre melting my prescious Chronos, its still a 'horrible beam of doom' (incidentally if you think Chronos are good in ACTA you should've seen the B5Wars version, THAT was what I call firepower )