The Boresight White Star

[cthol24601]

I am still liking our house rule of bore sight having a 2" play which means you only need line it up with the model or base of the ship in real terms ie near enough is good enough which means you can get a shot without having to move it later on to get the lock on afterwards.

It initially came about when we misread the rules in 1st edition that you could split dice between targets in a couple of inches to mean that guns had that much play. Hence our initial games at the club had boresight being just within 2" of the target to work. I still think its a better way of playing it. For us the rationale was advanced races like the Centauri or Mibari have swish focusing mirrors, lenses and computers to control them that allow a lot of play with firing arc but lesser races like Humans and Narn have much cruder equipment and lenses and so have a much cruder field of fire and accuracy.

 

[Burger]

Using a 2" leeway for boresight means they get a wider arc close-up than they do at long range.
In fact using that rule, a boresighted weapon could hit a target 2" behind it.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Using a 2" leeway for boresight means they get a wider arc close-up than they do at long range.
In fact using that rule, a boresighted weapon could hit a target 2" behind it.

Thats really arguing against the spirit of the rule and anyone who tried that would be promptly smacked.

You could just as well add two inches to the range of a bore sight as well.

30 degree arc, people!

 

[Ripple]

Hindsight...

Not trying to be snippy... just saying that that it doesn't matter which way we go, but we have to go all one way. We tried for a long time to get the G'Quan and Omega to widen up and were beaten down... so if we get stuck everyone gets stuck the same way.

It's no more stupid than having to move half speed unless you all stop continuously. The rules don't do a perfect job, but when you start breaking the mold you need to be consistent.

I just watched Shadow Dancing again and you see a Drazi Warbird hull, fire its twin linked guns at a sharp inward angle. The target is still in front but if it can bend both pulses in to cross they can swing them wherever they want. I've brought it up before back in the day, trying to get the game more like the show, but it's not the direction Matt wants to go.

(and on a pride note we see a Warbird shot pin a Shadow Ship, yay for the Drazi.)

Ripple

 

[Bendigeidfran]

I like the 2" left or right of bore sight idea.

 

[Taran]

It's not whitestar hate... we all want them to be like the show, but we want them to pay the right cost for their effectiveness too. The first fight that sheridan launches... proxima?... Omegas shoot one or two down, right now that should almost never happen according to the stats in a fight between just WS and Omegas.


Ripple

If it doesn't happen it means that either the WS player is just THAT good or the EA player is just THAT bad.

There isn't a single player that could bring an equal FAP fleet of WS to my Omegas and walk away with every ship. They will quite likely Win, but they will pay for that win.

Now, duplicate Proxima and send a lower FAP fleet of WSs against my Omegas and I will destroy you.


However, as you said earlier in your post, that's not really the issue (though how you can say it isn't and then say that it is all in the same breath makes me think of politics).
What is the issue is that the ISA can so very easily fill its weak spots.

An equal FAP fleet of WSs supported by fighters (used as interceptors) and an emine or 2 will stomp the stuffing out of the Omegas and even have a good chance of overcoming a larger fleet of Omegas.



Correction: The Narn and even Gaim emines have a max range of 40" but are usually only 30"
Omega's beam has a 30" range.

So, in a 5 Battle PL game, 5 Omega beams are going to trash the emine carriers in the first 2 turns (2 turns only with bad beam rolls), leaving the fighters and secondaries free to work over the WSs. Exactly as the Omegas should be played.
So, no. Omegas still have a strong chance at victory. And this with just a pure Omega fleet and no supporting ships. Not exactly the way the EA is designed to be played.

 

[Taran]

I am still liking our house rule of bore sight having a 2" play which means you only need line it up with the model or base of the ship in real terms ie near enough is good enough which means you can get a shot without having to move it later on to get the lock on afterwards.

It initially came about when we misread the rules in 1st edition that you could split dice between targets in a couple of inches to mean that guns had that much play. Hence our initial games at the club had boresight being just within 2" of the target to work. I still think its a better way of playing it. For us the rationale was advanced races like the Centauri or Mibari have swish focusing mirrors, lenses and computers to control them that allow a lot of play with firing arc but lesser races like Humans and Narn have much cruder equipment and lenses and so have a much cruder field of fire and accuracy.

When I originally read the rulebook, I didn't realize that everything was based on the stem of the ship. So I thought that Boresight meant that if you could line the long axis of the attacking vessel with any part of the target, you could fire on it.
It certainly makes more sense than trying to line the long axis (which is not based on the stem, though usually includes it) up with the stem of the target, makes Boresight more useful AND makes the larger ships easier to target with beams (since the smaller ships really shouldn't be that easy to target). Of course, that last point kinda means that the ships all should be in scale with each other...

 

[l33tpenguin]

When I originally read the rulebook, I didn't realize that everything was based on the stem of the ship. So I thought that Boresight meant that if you could line the long axis of the attacking vessel with any part of the target, you could fire on it.
It certainly makes more sense than trying to line the long axis (which is not based on the stem, though usually includes it) up with the stem of the target, makes Boresight more useful AND makes the larger ships easier to target with beams (since the smaller ships really shouldn't be that easy to target). Of course, that last point kinda means that the ships all should be in scale with each other...

I'm a big fan of having standard base sizes or ship base templates to be used when determining if something is in arc or not. An explorer is far easier to hit than a blue star, for instance.

It's not whitestar hate... we all want them to be like the show, but we want them to pay the right cost for their effectiveness too. The first fight that sheridan launches... proxima?... Omegas shoot one or two down, right now that should almost never happen according to the stats in a fight between just WS and Omegas.


Ripple

I remember reading a simple break down of capabilities a long long time ago that stated 3 Omega's had the same fire power as 2 White Stars.

Obviously this isn't the case in ACtA, but it is much closer to what is seen on the show.

If the white star was REALLY true to the show, it would be a Battle level ship, possibly War. Of course, other ships, like a Shadow Cruiser, would be even far more scary.

 

[cthol24601]

Well the base line up idea was really what we did in practice with out 2" rule (ie 2" is as wide as a large base) as the stem is so tiny as to be worthless in game. So it was really about you are pointed to part of the enemy ship and can shoot it.

 

[Ripple]

Since we have cycled back to my whitestar vs omega comments, let me clarify.

One of the things we see in the show is whitestar's gong head on into the Omega... you would never see that in the current play environment, as using the edge of an arc to preserve turn ability is almost always better... bore sighting the ship would force it to face its target. (that is what I'm saying about them not playing like they attack in the show, not the issue here which is play balance for the FAP... not politics like at all...)

Ten whitestars vs 5 omegas (equal FAP fleet) I send five whitestars on a scenic tour of the outer edge of the map and not a single omega beam ever fires. I can snipe from beyond secondary range with the remainder and you are lucky to fire at all, certainly not kill anything.

If I took a mine ships to help, they move last, again rendering your beams useless even though I sit directly in front of your omegas. Turn three is likely before you could even get to secondary range.

You'd have 20 odd starfury to my eight to ten nials... fight slightly in your favor but not bad assuming my mines didn't help.

Sounds to me like a good number of players could manage to walk away unscathed in that match.

Not sure on what the match up was at Proxima, so can't give a specific tactical doctrine that would work... but assume same numbers.

Your ships are lumbering... so try for a position where I can APtE past your valid targeting, don't worry about getting shots that turn. Once past try to play in the side arc to avoid the rear beam, may or may not work, but definitely has a chance.

for l33t - not sure where that comparison comes from, but while they might have the firepower they don't have the survivability. As said, we see Omegas popping a couple of them... but that could be lucky hits or another of our typical excuses.

Ripple

 

[Taran]

Except that's not likely to happen at all, Ripple. You're forgetting the init system.
ISA +2
Crusade +2
3rd Age +1

Those Omegas are going to get in their beam shots a lot more often than you'd like.

And that's assuming I bring 5 Omegas to your 10 WS instead of bringing 3 Omegas and a Command Omega for an additional +3 init. That Command ship may not last long, but +5(Crusade) or +4(3rd Age) init vs +2(ISA) is going to do a lot to help whittle down your numbers.

You move to the edge of the table on turn 1, I probably have init, I get 4 Boresight shots at you for 26 Dice on beams. I don't have init, I still get 3 Boresights for 20 dice. Dodge and AA and CBD may do a lot, but that's a LOT of beam dice. That's if you move the Emine ship last. If you don't, I kill it.

5 Omegas vs 10 WS, and I have an equal chance of winning init, so 30 Dice Beam or 24 Dice Beam. Thats a good chance of killing 2 WSs, turn 1.

You might, maybe, win but you won't walk away unscathed. Not by a long shot.

I'd love to game it out with you, using either the Fleet List WS or the PnP 1.1 WS, but then, I'd just love to get in a game with anyone...

 

[Foxmeister]

You move to the edge of the table on turn 1, I probably have init, I get 4 Boresight shots at you for 26 Dice on beams. I don't have init, I still get 3 Boresights for 20 dice. Dodge and AA and CBD may do a lot, but that's a LOT of beam dice. That's if you move the Emine ship last. If you don't, I kill it.

I think you rather miss the point. Even if you win initiative, he is going to move the 5 WS that are out of range/arc of the Omegas (or at least put them out of range/arc). That leaves 5 remaining WS that could be sitting right in your front arc, but you won't be able to boresight them because all your other ships have moved.

Yes with a 30" range, you can cover a wide area, but you only have to have some terrain and you are fubar'd.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Hindsight]

Why are we comparing Raid ships to Battle ships?

This game favors the two smaller ships for the one larger ship every time.

At work, my co-workers and I are using a Force Org chart (ala 40k) where at Battle 5 you must spend 2 points at Battle, either for 1 War or 2 Battle ships, before you can trade down.

Since everyone has to do it, it balances out some, and we get to use the bigger ships like the Tara'lin and Warlock more often. The league I play in, where we're currently having a campaign, doesn't have anything like that, so I have to bring my A Game.

 

[l33tpenguin]

for l33t - not sure where that comparison comes from, but while they might have the firepower they don't have the survivability. As said, we see Omegas popping a couple of them... but that could be lucky hits or another of our typical excuses.

Ripple

First, I would never take 5 omegas to a fight, as cool as they are (which is sad).

And, like I said, it was a long time ago, no clue where I read it. I disagree with the survivability, however. The White Star in the show is vastly more survivable than the Omega due to speed and agility. Sure, the Omega CAN take more punishment, but the white star can avoid more.

Also, all throughout the EA civil war, the white stars were pulling their punches. This made them vulnerable as they weren't out right killing off the destroyers. You leave yourself a lot more open to getting taken out when you are trying to subdue rather than kill.

Consider how long a force of Omegas would have lasted against their shadow hybrid cousins. I have a feeling that the Shadow Omegas would have mopped the floor with the lesser brothers.

 

[skavendan]

not with there current stats lol 2 omegas to a shadow omega better beams lol

4 point battle 4 omegas with superior range vs 2 lol

 

[katadder]

Except that's not likely to happen at all, Ripple. You're forgetting the init system.
ISA +2
Crusade +2
3rd Age +1

Those Omegas are going to get in their beam shots a lot more often than you'd like.

And that's assuming I bring 5 Omegas to your 10 WS instead of bringing 3 Omegas and a Command Omega for an additional +3 init. That Command ship may not last long, but +5(Crusade) or +4(3rd Age) init vs +2(ISA) is going to do a lot to help whittle down your numbers.

You move to the edge of the table on turn 1, I probably have init, I get 4 Boresight shots at you for 26 Dice on beams. I don't have init, I still get 3 Boresights for 20 dice. Dodge and AA and CBD may do a lot, but that's a LOT of beam dice. That's if you move the Emine ship last. If you don't, I kill it.

5 Omegas vs 10 WS, and I have an equal chance of winning init, so 30 Dice Beam or 24 Dice Beam. Thats a good chance of killing 2 WSs, turn 1.

You might, maybe, win but you won't walk away unscathed. Not by a long shot.

I'd love to game it out with you, using either the Fleet List WS or the PnP 1.1 WS, but then, I'd just love to get in a game with anyone...

dont forget your 20 starfuries/t-bolts if using 5 omegas too.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Why are we comparing Raid ships to Battle ships?

This game favors the two smaller ships for the one larger ship every time.

At work, my co-workers and I are using a Force Org chart (ala 40k) where at Battle 5 you must spend 2 points at Battle, either for 1 War or 2 Battle ships, before you can trade down.

Since everyone has to do it, it balances out some, and we get to use the bigger ships like the Tara'lin and Warlock more often. The league I play in, where we're currently having a campaign, doesn't have anything like that, so I have to bring my A Game.

Wish I had a whole group at work to play with, much less a league!

And, we SHOULD be able to compare ships of different PLs. FAP IS a system of comparison. An equal cost of Raid and Battle SHOULD be equal. It isn't, though. But that is more because of how init sinking works rather than the ships themselves.

 

[Hindsight]

And the value of a lucky crit, going farther on a single ship, rather than having no effect on the second ship when comparing a single Battle to a pair of Raid. It isn't balanced, but it should be, we don't disagree there for sure.

 

[stepan.razin]

Why are we comparing Raid ships to Battle ships?

This game favors the two smaller ships for the one larger ship every time.

At work, my co-workers and I are using a Force Org chart (ala 40k) where at Battle 5 you must spend 2 points at Battle, either for 1 War or 2 Battle ships, before you can trade down.

Since everyone has to do it, it balances out some, and we get to use the bigger ships like the Tara'lin and Warlock more often. The league I play in, where we're currently having a campaign, doesn't have anything like that, so I have to bring my A Game.

Taking out a sharlin (or nearly taking one out) on turn 1 is classified as A-game in my book. :lol:

 

[Hindsight]

They jumped out before I could finish it off.

Helps that I never failed a stealth roll that turn, and his beam dice uncharacteristically hated him for some reason. Could have gone very differently if not for the dice abnormalities.

Rolling two hits, and having both become crits, was pretty nice, on a non-precise weapon. It was just a weird game. Rolling five to hits, and getting three ones and two twos? Failing all of my own beam rolls from White Stars... I think they underperformed the entire game.

The Blue Stars were the MVP of that game, for sure. Didn't hurt that I had 7 of em =)