The Best and Worst Battle level ships
- Thread starter Humbaba
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I may not have been clear, I think you guys (Chris and Triggy) were a bit too focused on the top end of the comment. and not enough on the bottom end. What I was commenting on primarily was that at the low end interceptors unbalance to some degree as the become too GOOD relative to the value they are assigned, not that at the upper end they were overvalued.
In a strict debate interceptor vs geg there are issues on both sides. The 1 in 6 is good but is lost at crippled, where as the geg is only lost half the time. GEG affects a wider range of weapons. Interceptors stop hits reducing, the chance of a critical. A 1 in 6 after burn through vs a guarantee against every weapon.
I am not sure the GEG does not retain much of its value at higher levels, though it does require a chance in tactics. IE if you stand in front of the enemy it can be very much an issue...if you can dodge around you often don't face much more firepower than you do in smaller games as side guns don't really gain range as you go up. That said I agree that as a primary defense for the cruiser and its cohorts who do not do all that maneuvering around...not so good.
Ripple
In a strict debate interceptor vs geg there are issues on both sides. The 1 in 6 is good but is lost at crippled, where as the geg is only lost half the time. GEG affects a wider range of weapons. Interceptors stop hits reducing, the chance of a critical. A 1 in 6 after burn through vs a guarantee against every weapon.
I am not sure the GEG does not retain much of its value at higher levels, though it does require a chance in tactics. IE if you stand in front of the enemy it can be very much an issue...if you can dodge around you often don't face much more firepower than you do in smaller games as side guns don't really gain range as you go up. That said I agree that as a primary defense for the cruiser and its cohorts who do not do all that maneuvering around...not so good.
Ripple
I see your point. At least in my calculations there is a static component and a multiplier associated with the Interceptors trait. This way a low Damage vessel will receive more for the static component relative to its overall worth and a high Damage vessel will get more bonus from the multiplier element. It may not be perfect but it does show to some degree this range in value of Interceptors.Ripple said:
Valen is my name
Mongoose
whered the brakari kaliva come, its an equal to an omega in my opinion. And before anyone says variants dont count, two things:
1) Why is the white star 2 not classed as a variant?
And
2) After 2260 the Kaliva would replace the avoiki anyway, so eventually the avioki would be a variant of a kaliva.
1) Why is the white star 2 not classed as a variant?
And
2) After 2260 the Kaliva would replace the avoiki anyway, so eventually the avioki would be a variant of a kaliva.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
I hope to dear God that this is not indicative of the balance effort in 2e. The designer of this ship is being warned, with some fairly harsh language, here.
Given the fairly universal, quick, and lively reaction to a ship, it breeds a question: is a average community of wargamers, interacting online as a whole, a better balance mechanism than any individual game designer ever COULD be? I mean, in general, not just here. I'm starting to think, yes.....
Given the fairly universal, quick, and lively reaction to a ship, it breeds a question: is a average community of wargamers, interacting online as a whole, a better balance mechanism than any individual game designer ever COULD be? I mean, in general, not just here. I'm starting to think, yes.....
As I said over in the troligan thread - drop its beam back to 25 inches (where it should be, for continuity with the rest of the fleet - although the range limit on minbari is kinda laughable, compared to the uber-range on Centauri beams at Raid PL), 3AD, drop the minibeam dice by 2 in each arc (they're not twin linked anyways). I think that'd balance it quite happily - the Tinashi would still be the winner on firepower, and the troligan would move to the slow, damage soaker role.
As for the Minbari having good ships at higher PLs - what's the issue? Centauri have great ships at every PL. People moan and whine about Minbos being too tough. When was the last time you saw a Minbari fleet do well at a tournament?
As for the Minbari having good ships at higher PLs - what's the issue? Centauri have great ships at every PL. People moan and whine about Minbos being too tough. When was the last time you saw a Minbari fleet do well at a tournament?
I was not there 
But I think Tank won with them on Sunday!
though of course I should porbably emphasie that a bit - it is usually the skill (and luck) of the player rather than the ships!
unless its me in which case its the stupid ships fault, or the Narn slaves, or the Gods, or.............
But I think Tank won with them on Sunday!though of course I should porbably emphasie that a bit - it is usually the skill (and luck) of the player rather than the ships!
unless its me in which case its the stupid ships fault, or the Narn slaves, or the Gods, or.............
CZuschlag said:
as I have said in another thread its not showing its firepower in relation to 2e. I think that was possibly even a 1st idea that was floated but was shot down by us.
on a whole gaming community being balanced - theres enough arguments/discussions on whats balanced and whats not between the playtesting group without adding 100s more in. would get nothing done.
the 2e one is slightly less on firepower, it also has less damage/crew than the 1e one you are seeing. also if you read on stealth if another ship sees it already from your fleet you get +1 to break stealth.
troligan 4+ stealth - scout it down to 3+, someone else see it down to 2+, get within 8" down to automatically see.
I think there are two seperate issues:
Is the present (ie one released today) balanced in 1st Ed - I don't know but a number of people are concerned about its potential.......
Is it balanced in 2nd Ed - Again I (and prob most people here) don't know yet. Probably best to focus - at present - on the first part?
or not! Have fun
Is the present (ie one released today) balanced in 1st Ed - I don't know but a number of people are concerned about its potential.......
Is it balanced in 2nd Ed - Again I (and prob most people here) don't know yet. Probably best to focus - at present - on the first part?
or not! Have fun
Well, wrt the stealth bonus for ships following detection in 2e - as suggested at Aldershot, that may be better if it's only allowed in squadrons. For a start, it makes more sense given how it's supposed to work (one ship relaying targetting info to another - mind you, this smacks of how scouts are supposed to work - so makes them even less sensible!), and it'd also encourage the use of squadrons.
Nerfing stealth even further is not going to be a good thing.
Matt in S&P said 'Minbari need to learn not to give opponents these benefits', and it's kind of a patently ridiculous statement given how stealth works.
At raid level and below, Minbari dont have a weapon over 20 inches in range. So that's a straight up nono - if you want to damage them, you have to concede that benefit. Some ships have weapons with less than 8 inch range - so again, if you want to use them, you have to forego stealth bonuses and start taking penalties.
Nerfing stealth even further is not going to be a good thing.
Matt in S&P said 'Minbari need to learn not to give opponents these benefits', and it's kind of a patently ridiculous statement given how stealth works.
At raid level and below, Minbari dont have a weapon over 20 inches in range. So that's a straight up nono - if you want to damage them, you have to concede that benefit. Some ships have weapons with less than 8 inch range - so again, if you want to use them, you have to forego stealth bonuses and start taking penalties.
It also said Stealth is going up across the board, the other factors are also based on ifs and maybes - if you make your Lower stealth roll, if you get to fire on them with a ship, if you get within 8".
As I mentioned elsewhere on the board, even Stealth 4 can work and has done......... my Centauri Scout was almost invisble in the midst of I think 4 enemy ships (2-6"), conversely three Stealth 4 Minbari ships were equally invisible to my ships in the last tournament I was in for most of the game.
As I mentioned elsewhere on the board, even Stealth 4 can work and has done......... my Centauri Scout was almost invisble in the midst of I think 4 enemy ships (2-6"), conversely three Stealth 4 Minbari ships were equally invisible to my ships in the last tournament I was in for most of the game.
That's the issue I have with stealth and all the answers to it. They all rely on a die roll to be able to do anything. A very few rolls can ruin a game for the opponent (and the Minbari player if he is a gentleman) as neither side feels their skills had much to do with victory. The fact that they are adding in a 'fleet wide' attempt to break stealth helps this to an extent, but stealth will get better and better as the battle moves on now. Even better than SFoS stealth apparently.
Best beat that stealth while you can, cause once your scouts/number of ships starts going you will quickly lose anything but pure lucks chance of hitting one of these improved stealth ships. I just wish they would make stealth a bit easier to break without all the special rules, but give Minbari some benefit even if its broken. That way everyone gets a chance to do something and its a matter of pushing for 'advantage' rather than the right to participate at all.
Ripple (sorry off topic...the new troligan stats are just silly under 1 ed, and if the stealth and beam changes are as stated even worse under 2 ed.)
Best beat that stealth while you can, cause once your scouts/number of ships starts going you will quickly lose anything but pure lucks chance of hitting one of these improved stealth ships. I just wish they would make stealth a bit easier to break without all the special rules, but give Minbari some benefit even if its broken. That way everyone gets a chance to do something and its a matter of pushing for 'advantage' rather than the right to participate at all.
Ripple (sorry off topic...the new troligan stats are just silly under 1 ed, and if the stealth and beam changes are as stated even worse under 2 ed.)
That's the shame of it. Every single person who's seen it so far instinctively knows its way overpowered, with calculations and ship-to-ship comparisons backing this up. It's pretty unfortunate that we couldn't get a preview of the stats to let Matt know what we thought before it got released as official.katadder said:looking at it I dont think its balanced for 1e. but then only matt knew what he was gonna put in S&P. we were as much in dark as you guys
This thing is a joke. It's not quite up to being a War level ship... it is identical to a Neshatan, except with 2 less AD's on the main gun and no rear Neutron Laser. But, it is certainly the most overpowered ship I have ever seen, way more so than the Prefect, Tertius and even the old Sagittarius!
Why aren't these new stats given to the playtesters, to test and comment? Isn't that the point of having playtesters?
Why aren't these new stats given to the playtesters, to test and comment? Isn't that the point of having playtesters?
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