The Best and Worst Battle level ships
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CZuschlag
Mongoose
The Drakh Cruiser doesn't get either!
What it DOES get to do is shrug light firepower. At times (for example, the God-Awful Hermes fleet) that's darn useful. But that doesn't often appear at Battle-level. Ususally it's the land of big-beams. And GEG 3 just doesn't do as much.
I'm a huge proponent of GEG -- don't get me wrong! I wrote ... am still writing ... may never complete ... a huge discussion in the Drakh Tactics that spend a could of pages espousing the GEG. But, it is a support defensive system with its own limitations, and the biggest one is that it Just Doesn't Scale.
GEG 3 is ludicrously powerful at Skirmish. No lie. See the reason why I actually like the Drakh Carrier in a Skirmish-5 fight. But, at Battle-level, it often just doesn't cut mustard. The weapon systems get big and hairy enough that they can generate the hits to take down the ship. How do you balance at both levels? Given it's a threshold defensive system, I have no earthly idea right now. But as it is right now, it is balanced --- extremely powerful at the low end of its priority band, but rather weak at its priority and above.
Only the Minbari-like beam array saves it from ignominity.
What it DOES get to do is shrug light firepower. At times (for example, the God-Awful Hermes fleet) that's darn useful. But that doesn't often appear at Battle-level. Ususally it's the land of big-beams. And GEG 3 just doesn't do as much.
I'm a huge proponent of GEG -- don't get me wrong! I wrote ... am still writing ... may never complete ... a huge discussion in the Drakh Tactics that spend a could of pages espousing the GEG. But, it is a support defensive system with its own limitations, and the biggest one is that it Just Doesn't Scale.
GEG 3 is ludicrously powerful at Skirmish. No lie. See the reason why I actually like the Drakh Carrier in a Skirmish-5 fight. But, at Battle-level, it often just doesn't cut mustard. The weapon systems get big and hairy enough that they can generate the hits to take down the ship. How do you balance at both levels? Given it's a threshold defensive system, I have no earthly idea right now. But as it is right now, it is balanced --- extremely powerful at the low end of its priority band, but rather weak at its priority and above.
Only the Minbari-like beam array saves it from ignominity.
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Against Drakh, you're supposed to give up on winning the initiative battle, don't take anything boresighted, and take very very big hulls, to maximize the number of dice in individual weapon systems.
None of the Minbari raid hulls fit that bill, even the Tigaras, which suffer from way too many different weapon lines. With turning also at a premium, you are looking at the Tinashi and, if you can defend it, in particular the Shantavi, as the ways to go.
Hiffano: Many, many of my Drakh games go to turn 10 -- at least half of them! Even with average dice .....
None of the Minbari raid hulls fit that bill, even the Tigaras, which suffer from way too many different weapon lines. With turning also at a premium, you are looking at the Tinashi and, if you can defend it, in particular the Shantavi, as the ways to go.
Hiffano: Many, many of my Drakh games go to turn 10 -- at least half of them! Even with average dice .....
Stealth - well its a question of luck isn't it
My last tournament game I got to fire with my ships about 6 times in that many turns (against Stealth 4 Minbari note)- thats partly my fault for not splitting fire more but if you have a whole ship (or a fleet in one turn!) not firing at all that is pretty major advantage .............
Previously My Vorchar Scout had walzted through a whole fleet of Brakari ships ( I think 4 ships at 2-6" range) without being hit.........
Its great when it works.........
My last tournament game I got to fire with my ships about 6 times in that many turns (against Stealth 4 Minbari note)- thats partly my fault for not splitting fire more but if you have a whole ship (or a fleet in one turn!) not firing at all that is pretty major advantage .............
Previously My Vorchar Scout had walzted through a whole fleet of Brakari ships ( I think 4 ships at 2-6" range) without being hit.........
Its great when it works.........
OK, more of the same again from my point of view:
(8.000 = arbitrary score roughly equivalent to a typical Battle PL ship)
Garasoch (Dilgar) 4.1338
Hyperion Command (EA) 4.3161
Avenger (DoTA EA) 5.0041
Brokados (Brakiri) 5.1698
Avioki (Brakiri) 5.5402
Apollo (EA) 5.6305
Tikrit (Dilgar) 5.6403
Morshin (Minbari) 5.7042
Raiders Nova (Raiders) 5.9845
Nightfalcon (Drazi) 6.4584
Var’Nic (Narn) 6.2017
Wahant (Dilgar) 6.5949
Omega Pulse (EA) 6.6740
Stormfalcon (Drazi) 6.7663
Balvarix (Centauri) 6.8444
Troligan (Minbari) 7.1097
Kahtrik (Dilgar) 7.3252
Orestes (EA) 7.4294
Kaliva (Brakiri) 7.4993
Drakh Cruiser (Drakh) 7.5115
Tinashi (Minbari) 7.5503
Secundus (Centauri) 7.5807
G’Lan (Narn) 7.7184
Xaak (Vree) 7.7456
Marathon (EA) 7.8976
Lakara (Abbai) 7.9195
G’Quan (Narn) 7.9764
Omega (EA) 8.0925
Vorlon Destroyer (Vorlons) 8.1800
Shantavi (Minbari) 8.2010
Kabrokta (Brakiri) 8.2101
Veshatan (Minbari) 8.3591
Primus (Centauri) 8.5045
Drakh Carrier (Drakh) 8.7729
WSC-2 (ISA) 8.8379
Tertius (Centauri) 9.6056
Troligan (Minbari) 12.2218
Pretty much as expected again and it fairly matches what has been suggested from the public
Next time it'll be the War PL ships... (followed by Skirmish PL and Armageddon/Ancient PL)
Edited to correct Shantavi and Wahant, also added new Troligan and Kabrokta
(8.000 = arbitrary score roughly equivalent to a typical Battle PL ship)
Garasoch (Dilgar) 4.1338
Hyperion Command (EA) 4.3161
Avenger (DoTA EA) 5.0041
Brokados (Brakiri) 5.1698
Avioki (Brakiri) 5.5402
Apollo (EA) 5.6305
Tikrit (Dilgar) 5.6403
Morshin (Minbari) 5.7042
Raiders Nova (Raiders) 5.9845
Nightfalcon (Drazi) 6.4584
Var’Nic (Narn) 6.2017
Wahant (Dilgar) 6.5949
Omega Pulse (EA) 6.6740
Stormfalcon (Drazi) 6.7663
Balvarix (Centauri) 6.8444
Troligan (Minbari) 7.1097
Kahtrik (Dilgar) 7.3252
Orestes (EA) 7.4294
Kaliva (Brakiri) 7.4993
Drakh Cruiser (Drakh) 7.5115
Tinashi (Minbari) 7.5503
Secundus (Centauri) 7.5807
G’Lan (Narn) 7.7184
Xaak (Vree) 7.7456
Marathon (EA) 7.8976
Lakara (Abbai) 7.9195
G’Quan (Narn) 7.9764
Omega (EA) 8.0925
Vorlon Destroyer (Vorlons) 8.1800
Shantavi (Minbari) 8.2010
Kabrokta (Brakiri) 8.2101
Veshatan (Minbari) 8.3591
Primus (Centauri) 8.5045
Drakh Carrier (Drakh) 8.7729
WSC-2 (ISA) 8.8379
Tertius (Centauri) 9.6056
Troligan (Minbari) 12.2218
Pretty much as expected again and it fairly matches what has been suggested from the public
Next time it'll be the War PL ships... (followed by Skirmish PL and Armageddon/Ancient PL)
Edited to correct Shantavi and Wahant, also added new Troligan and Kabrokta
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Acutally, no, it doesn't. I remember a lot of complaints about the Drakh Carrier; you actually have it fairly high on your list. I consider it at best a specialist ship. Very confusing to me, and I run it a lot --- just at 5 Skirmish only!
Also -- you like the Dilgar Wahant more than the Khatrik? You did remember the Wahant's bolters slow-load, right? If they didn't, I'd think it a fine ship, granted. The Stormfalcon as worse than either of these two is very confusing; the Tinashi worse than the Lakara is almost shocking.
I'm also surprised you consider the Troligan better, even if marginally, than the Shantavi.
Also -- you like the Dilgar Wahant more than the Khatrik? You did remember the Wahant's bolters slow-load, right? If they didn't, I'd think it a fine ship, granted. The Stormfalcon as worse than either of these two is very confusing; the Tinashi worse than the Lakara is almost shocking.
I'm also surprised you consider the Troligan better, even if marginally, than the Shantavi.
You're right about the Wahant, I did indeed forget the slow loading (you can do this sort of thing with speed checking through the lists. I'll have a check on this and the Shantavi and Troligan tooCZuschlag said:
Edit I've updated the correct Wahant and Shantavi scoresAs for the Lakara - this actually fits with my belief that it's a good, solid ship with decent firepower. Most of the Abbai are genuinely good ships actually.
The Drakh Carrier carries a formidable load of Raiders and is pretty much a Raid PL ship itself. This in my opinion (and from when I've played them in the past) makes them pretty tough opponents. This is one though that different people have opposing view depending on how you rate Raiders vs the speed you can deploy them (in my case I rate them at about 3/4 overall due to deployment speed).
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Triggy:
My major problem with the Carrier is the extra VP you give up when the kill inevitably occurs. If you've got an asteroid field to work with, it isn't so bad; on an open table, like, say, the incredibly common Call to Arms, there's nowhere to go, and the thing is just handing out victory points to your opponent. It's kind of like the UFO that goes across the screen during the video game Space Invaders --- it's just free points, waiting to be shot.
The other problem is the idea that the GEG's value depends a great deal on the sizes of the weapon arrays around it, and the Raider in a Skirmish level fighter is far more valuable than a Raider in a Battle level fight. Firepower combines linearly, but the GEG is just a constant.
Example of what I mean: 1/5 of a 5-Battle point is 3 Raiders, 15 of a 5-Skirmish fight is 1 Raider. But the 1 Raider in its Skirmish fight is far more powerful on the board than the 3 Raiders collectively in the 5-Battle fight:
-- 2 Skirmish firing on single Heavy Raider (take the Chronos, 360 guns and all) 2:2 from pulse, 4:4 from Railguns kills the Raider in 3 turns, just about guaranteed (no CAF), GEG is good for 6:6 or so before death.
-- 2 Battle firing on 3 Heavy Raiders (best analogy of 360 degree firepower I can find, the Sharoos and I --- overstrike a bunch of stuff, I found a better analogy with Turret weaponry, the Z'Takk --8:8, 0:0 from the Torpedoes (slow-load cycle there!), 8:8 from the Cannon, and 10:10 from the Shredder [OW!], 5:5 from the Antiprotons kills one raiders on turn one and cripples another (Shredder + Cannon = kill, Antiprotons + Torps come close to crippling another), and on turn 2 the antiprotons finish the 2nd and the Shredder and Cannons do their thing on another Raider. Here, each GEG was only good for 2:2 --- a TITANIC difference.
This huge difference in valuation is where we get the difference of opinions as to the value of the GEG. Hiff says it's the most overrated system in the game. He's right -- given that many people think of GEG in the skirmish fight above don't think about how little it means in big fights. He's also wrong, in the sense that in small-level fights, the GEG is just BRUTAL if over 2. It just doesn't linearly scale.
Therefore, I think the value of the Carrier isn't in large part based on the value of 4 x a Raider. With the Bat Squad, this roughly works -- firepower stacks fairly linearly. But many defenses, and certainly the GEG, does not.
My major problem with the Carrier is the extra VP you give up when the kill inevitably occurs. If you've got an asteroid field to work with, it isn't so bad; on an open table, like, say, the incredibly common Call to Arms, there's nowhere to go, and the thing is just handing out victory points to your opponent. It's kind of like the UFO that goes across the screen during the video game Space Invaders --- it's just free points, waiting to be shot.
The other problem is the idea that the GEG's value depends a great deal on the sizes of the weapon arrays around it, and the Raider in a Skirmish level fighter is far more valuable than a Raider in a Battle level fight. Firepower combines linearly, but the GEG is just a constant.
Example of what I mean: 1/5 of a 5-Battle point is 3 Raiders, 15 of a 5-Skirmish fight is 1 Raider. But the 1 Raider in its Skirmish fight is far more powerful on the board than the 3 Raiders collectively in the 5-Battle fight:
-- 2 Skirmish firing on single Heavy Raider (take the Chronos, 360 guns and all) 2:2 from pulse, 4:4 from Railguns kills the Raider in 3 turns, just about guaranteed (no CAF), GEG is good for 6:6 or so before death.
-- 2 Battle firing on 3 Heavy Raiders (best analogy of 360 degree firepower I can find, the Sharoos and I --- overstrike a bunch of stuff, I found a better analogy with Turret weaponry, the Z'Takk --8:8, 0:0 from the Torpedoes (slow-load cycle there!), 8:8 from the Cannon, and 10:10 from the Shredder [OW!], 5:5 from the Antiprotons kills one raiders on turn one and cripples another (Shredder + Cannon = kill, Antiprotons + Torps come close to crippling another), and on turn 2 the antiprotons finish the 2nd and the Shredder and Cannons do their thing on another Raider. Here, each GEG was only good for 2:2 --- a TITANIC difference.
This huge difference in valuation is where we get the difference of opinions as to the value of the GEG. Hiff says it's the most overrated system in the game. He's right -- given that many people think of GEG in the skirmish fight above don't think about how little it means in big fights. He's also wrong, in the sense that in small-level fights, the GEG is just BRUTAL if over 2. It just doesn't linearly scale.
Therefore, I think the value of the Carrier isn't in large part based on the value of 4 x a Raider. With the Bat Squad, this roughly works -- firepower stacks fairly linearly. But many defenses, and certainly the GEG, does not.
I 100% agree with you there. This was meant to be based upon a Raid PL game but the scalability particularly of Raiders is variable. This means that you inevitably have to price the ships at their optimal levels and hope the players aren't too dispirited by having a reduced choice of low PL ships in high PL games.
As for costing the Carrier as the Raiders give away VPs, this is harder to model and all I can say is that combat ability is what's being estimated by the mathematical models rather than as you point out their overall chance of winning a game on VPs.
As for costing the Carrier as the Raiders give away VPs, this is harder to model and all I can say is that combat ability is what's being estimated by the mathematical models rather than as you point out their overall chance of winning a game on VPs.
actually very good points, I never viewed it at the point of view of skirmish v skirmish, I wouldn't say it's necesarily proportional to the size of the fight, rather the capeability of the opponent, Burgers drazi fleet ripped me to pieces, and it was the sheer amount of patrol level beams he could bring to bear on me. Is that then a problem with drazi patrol ships?!
in big engagements I expect huge losses, my hope is normally to swarm and pick ships off with raiders, whilst trying to soak up damage on the cruisers/light cruisers, but i would kill for a hull 6 once in a while.
maybe, like the Minbari, we can get an armoured cruiser? for those times when surviveability really matters
in big engagements I expect huge losses, my hope is normally to swarm and pick ships off with raiders, whilst trying to soak up damage on the cruisers/light cruisers, but i would kill for a hull 6 once in a while.
maybe, like the Minbari, we can get an armoured cruiser? for those times when surviveability really matters
CZuschlag
Mongoose
Hiffano,
I've been thinking about that and wondering if it would be balanced. I have regretfully concluded that it is not. Hull 5 is as high as the Drakh should go, short of Armageddon-level.
My solution is just a boatload of hits. Something like:
Battle
Speed: 7 Damage: 57/8 Crew: 61/8
Turns: 1/45 Hull: 5 Traits: AJP, Flight Computer, GEG 3, Huge Hangars 1
Craft: None Troops: 3
Neutron Cannon F; 2 AD; Range 20; SAP, B, DD, P
Pulse Cannon: F; 10 AD; Range 10; AP, TL
Pulse Cannon: P; 10 AD; Range 10; AP, TL
Pulse Cannon: S; 10 AD; Range 10; AP, TL
Pulse Cannon: A; 10 AD; Range 10; AP, TL
Good uses for the Hangar might be a couple of those rumored-about shield ships. I actually think this might be a weak ship.
War
Speed: 8 Damage: 63/10 Crew: 63/10
Turns: 1/45 Hull: 5 Traits: AJP, Flight Computer, GEG 4, Huge Hangars 1 or 2
Craft: 3 Breaching Pods Troops: 4
Neutron Cannon: F; 6 AD; Range 25; SAP, B, DD, P
Neutron Cannon: A; 2 AD; Range 25; SAP, B, DD, P
Pulse Cannon: F; 8 AD; Range 10; AP, TL
Pulse Cannon: P; 8 AD; Range 10; AP, TL
Pulse Cannon: S; 8 AD; Range 10; AP, TL
Pulse Cannon: A; 8 AD; Range 10; AP, TL
A vision of the onscreen Drakh War Cruiser that we see media of, but no models for. A warship we've been waiting for.
Not even PRETENDING these ships are balanced yet!
I've been thinking about that and wondering if it would be balanced. I have regretfully concluded that it is not. Hull 5 is as high as the Drakh should go, short of Armageddon-level.
My solution is just a boatload of hits. Something like:
Battle
Speed: 7 Damage: 57/8 Crew: 61/8
Turns: 1/45 Hull: 5 Traits: AJP, Flight Computer, GEG 3, Huge Hangars 1
Craft: None Troops: 3
Neutron Cannon F; 2 AD; Range 20; SAP, B, DD, P
Pulse Cannon: F; 10 AD; Range 10; AP, TL
Pulse Cannon: P; 10 AD; Range 10; AP, TL
Pulse Cannon: S; 10 AD; Range 10; AP, TL
Pulse Cannon: A; 10 AD; Range 10; AP, TL
Good uses for the Hangar might be a couple of those rumored-about shield ships. I actually think this might be a weak ship.
War
Speed: 8 Damage: 63/10 Crew: 63/10
Turns: 1/45 Hull: 5 Traits: AJP, Flight Computer, GEG 4, Huge Hangars 1 or 2
Craft: 3 Breaching Pods Troops: 4
Neutron Cannon: F; 6 AD; Range 25; SAP, B, DD, P
Neutron Cannon: A; 2 AD; Range 25; SAP, B, DD, P
Pulse Cannon: F; 8 AD; Range 10; AP, TL
Pulse Cannon: P; 8 AD; Range 10; AP, TL
Pulse Cannon: S; 8 AD; Range 10; AP, TL
Pulse Cannon: A; 8 AD; Range 10; AP, TL
A vision of the onscreen Drakh War Cruiser that we see media of, but no models for. A warship we've been waiting for.
Not even PRETENDING these ships are balanced yet!
emperorpenguin
Mongoose
Burger said:I hope you don't use charts like these to achieve "balance" when playtesting!
of course we do :wink:
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