Taxes, the Imperium, and You!

[ottarrus]

Hmm, except this apocalyptic scenario of desolation isn't what generally happens in the boardgame of that action produced by GDW (Invasion: Earth). The Imperial player usually takes Luna to use as a forward base, then deals with Terra's SDB squadrons (or at least suppresses them by causing them to hide outsystem or in the ocean), then suppresses the planetary defence batteries (I agree here is where collateral damage may well occur, depending on where they are deployed by the Terran command and on the tactics used to suppress them). Then you land through meteoric assault and seek a lodgement in an out-of-the-way location, make the Terrans come to you to try to evict your foothold, and defeat them in detail on the ground.
Yes, this takes a huge invasion force, and time, which certainly means the Imperium isn't able to use those resources chasing Wolfe's fleet to ground.

And here we come back to two points I routinely make about planetary invasions.
1. The board games do not accurately depict the issues, conditions or results of the role playing game. GDW has said this many times.
2. There is literally no point in destroying a civilization just so you can adjust a line on a stellar map. It is sheer foolishness to utterly wreck that which you hope to preserve by invading the world to begin with. If you have to murder a billion people to make your point, your point is pointless.

As for Operation Prodigal Son, Wolfe's fleet was already wrecked at the Battle of Dingir. Wolfe abandoned Terra because his fleet was a shambles. Adair's operational goal after Wolfe fled was twofold:
a] She couldn't leave world with millions of enemy troops and functioning industry in her rear if she chose to pursue Wolfe, and
b] Taking Terra would put to rest for all time the Solomani belief that they were somehow superior to anyone else.
The results are obvious. Admiral Baroness Adair's descendant is now Archduke of Sol, Terra is scheduled to be returned to her people as a loyal member world of the Third Imperium, and literally everyone rolls their eyes and treats a Solomani activist like they're an idiot when they start spouting their propaganda.
And none of that would have been possible if Adair just tipped a rock into Earth because it was the easy way.

 

[actionman]

b] Taking Terra would put to rest for all time the Solomani belief that they were somehow superior to anyone else.

And Admiral Adair was willing to shovel thousands of ships and millions of lives into the maw of Terra's defenses to achieve that end. Perhaps her war planners underestimated how difficult the Siege of Terra would be, and once the battle was joined withdrawing her forces became impractical. There was probably immense political pressure on her to bring the war to an end, and, being an aristocrat, the lives of Imperial military personnel were probably a distant consideration.

 

[MonsterX]

I was responding to @mavikfelna 's post about why couldn't the Imperium be a partially planned economy.

And the thread is about taxes in the Imperium.

ok point taken. So I was considering the thread topic to be the thing the thread has drifted into being about, rather than the other thing the thread had also drifted into being about.

Still, I was responding to what I read as an the assumption behind your post, which is that certain often cited examples of planned economy which have had absurd outcomes prove that planned economies are impossibly dysfunctional.

My actual point is that there are a variety of ways of doing this, all large organizations have internal planed economies anyways and they clearly work (except when they don't). Understanding how and why a specific planned economy works or doesn't gets very micro. It is necessary to, for example, separate out ownership from operations - both are important influences on firm behaviour but not in a deterministic way.

Elements of planned economies within a larger capitalist framework have their uses. They are susceptible to unintended consequences (as are capitalist firms in a free market context too BTW), but these are not inevitable.

 

[ottarrus]

And Admiral Adair was willing to shovel thousands of ships and millions of lives into the maw of Terra's defenses to achieve that end. Perhaps her war planners underestimated how difficult the Siege of Terra would be, and once the battle was joined withdrawing her forces became impractical. There was probably immense political pressure on her to bring the war to an end, and, being an aristocrat, the lives of Imperial military personnel were probably a distant consideration.

Even in the Third Imperium, with all it's Vilani and Sylean influences, it would be political suicide to drop an asteroid on Earth, the homeworld of Humaniti. There are three 'sacred worlds' for Humaniti: Bilandin [Vland], Earth, and Zhdant and of the three Earth is FAR more important. NO Emperor would countenance such an act any more than an Aslan would permit someone to do the same thing to Kusyu even though his clan wasn't from there. And had Adair done so just for convenience's sake, Emperor Gavin would have shot her himself.
Even in the 57 Century there are some acts beyond the pale.

As for Adair's motives, the woman was Imperial Navy since she was 18 years old. All the lore we have on her says or implies that she was a spacehand first and a noblewoman second. She had two goals for Prodigal Son: to return Earth to the Imperial fold and putting the lie to the Solomani exceptional myth. After the Sollies lost the world they said made them special, no one would believe their nonsense ever again.

 

[CordwainerFish]

After (insert anything here), no one would believe their nonsense ever again.

If only. If only.

 

[Condottiere]

There are three aspects to consider.

Glassing Terra, the Imperium could just then write off half their empire.

They've pretty much invested a lot of their military capital in the war, and weren't unscathed.

Wolfe decided on a second gamble, and was recalling the frontier units.

 

[collins355]

And here we come back to two points I routinely make about planetary invasions.
1. The board games do not accurately depict the issues, conditions or results of the role playing game. GDW has said this many times.
2. There is literally no point in destroying a civilization just so you can adjust a line on a stellar map. It is sheer foolishness to utterly wreck that which you hope to preserve by invading the world to begin with. If you have to murder a billion people to make your point, your point is pointless.

I definitely agree with the second point.

Please post a citation or two for the second point. If, indeed, GDW said this many times, I'm sure one or two won't be hard for you to reference.

 

[actionman]

I was considering the thread topic to be the thing the thread has drifted into being about

Understood. I have edited my post.

It is necessary to, for example, separate out ownership from operations.

And that's the key.

We're getting away from the definitions we need for this discussion to make sense. A command economy / planned economy isn't necessarily impossibly dysfunctional, but it is dysfunctional. In order to be a planned economy, the government must control production, distribution, pricing, and wages, etcetera ad nauseam. This necessarily requires market forces to be ignored, and planners, no many how great, no matter how many, simply can't plan all of this with precision and flexibility required to reduce dysfunction to the level of a free market economy. The degree to which the government does this, planning and decreeing those things instead of letting them be determined by the market (meaning millions of buyers and sellers making their individual decisions), influences the degree of dysfunction. Even wage and price controls by themselves can cause pretty bad dysfunction in an otherwise market economy.

 

[actionman]

putting the lie to the Solomani exceptional myth.

But was it a lie? The Solomani proved their exceptionalism by their deeds. The Vilani still don't rule the space of the former Ziru Sirka, and they only gained access to the Imperial aristocracy by the decision of a Solomani empress.

the Sollies lost the world they said made them special

But they never said it was Terra that made them special, they presented their advancements and victories as evidence. The Vilani and the Vargr were from Terra too, back in the day.

no one would believe their nonsense ever again.

Or was it more of a case of "...but what have you done lately?"

Even with the full might of the Imperium raised against them, the Solomani won their war of independence. They lost Terra and one sector of the Sphere, but they restored the sovereignty of the Solomani worlds and tore five sectors away from the mightiest empire Charted Space has ever known. They are not gods, but only men, and when the dust settled and the Cherenkov radiation dimmed, the Solomani walked away from that war with 5 out of the 6 sectors they wanted. Top that, Zhodani.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The Solomani hypothesis and the Solomani movement were invented by Third Imperium nobility at core, who used their Solomani ancestry to promote their legitimacy to be the new Imperium.

The Solomani Confederation of 1105 is a disparate umbrella organisation that has little actual authority of the major sub-polities within the confederation, many of which can trace their roots back to old Terra and the ISW era... it is likely more of an artifact of Imperial propaganda than a serious organisation wishing to re-conquer the worlds lost during the Rim war.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[rinku]

Actually, all I was really saying was that it makes sense for the Imperial Navy in particular to run things in-house as much as possible, both for security and assurance of supply reasons. That doesn't mean that the general Imperial economy isn't free market, and decentralised to the mostly autonomous planetary governments. Nor does it mean the Navy won't look at some deal with the Megas where both benefit.

Because all the heavy industry is automated and space is full of rocks and gas, why wouldn't the Navy refine and distribute its own fuel, extract its own raw materials and construct to suit its requirements? A commercial concern can't let capital stay idle, but a public one can... although once it has idle time and the depots are stocked up, why not sell to the public (especially the processed ore side of things)?

 

[mavikfelna]

Actually, all I was really saying was that it makes sense for the Imperial Navy in particular to run things in-house as much as possible, both for security and assurance of supply reasons. That doesn't mean that the general Imperial economy isn't free market, and decentralised to the mostly autonomous planetary governments. Nor does it mean the Navy won't look at some deal with the Megas where both benefit.

Because all the heavy industry is automated and space is full of rocks and gas, why wouldn't the Navy refine and distribute its own fuel, extract its own raw materials and construct to suit its requirements? A commercial concern can't let capital stay idle, but a public one can... although once it has idle time and the depots are stocked up, why not sell to the public (especially the processed ore side of things)?

This is what I was meaning by partially command economy for the military. It's not the right term, but this what I meant.
Thank you for putting it more clearly @rinku

 

[Sigtrygg]

AHL construction yards:

Gashidda No. 1
Gashidda No. 2
Gashidda No. 3
VLandian No. 1
Vlandian No. 2
Clan Severn
Ling Standard
Yard 17
Yard 16 No. 1
Arshani, Etran
Commonal
Yard 16 No. 3
AHG, AG
Yard 22 No. 1
Yard 11 No. 1
Yard 22 No. 2
Yard 16 No. 4
Tukeral, et al
Delvani
Highlans
Yard 16 No. 1
Yard 22 No. 1
AHG, AG
Arshani, Etran
Gashidda No. 2
Gashidda No. 3
Clan Severn
Vlandian No. 1
Yard 17
Ling Standard
Vlandian No. 3
Gashidda No. 1
Delvani
Yard 16 No. 3
Tukera, et al
Highlans
Commonal
Yard 11 No. 1
Yard 22 No. 1
Gashidda No, 2
Gashidda No. 3
Yard 16 No. 1
AHG, AG
Arshani, Etran
Vlandian No. 3
Comrnonal
Gashidda No. 1
Yard 16 No. 3
Vlandian No. 1
Delvani
Tukera, at a1
Yard 17
Ling Standard
Clan Severn
Yard 11 No. 1
Highlans
Gashidda No. 2
Yard 16 No. 1
Yard 22 No. 1
Gashidda No. 3
Arshani, Etran
Vlandian No. 3
AHG, AG
Commonal
Gashidda No. 1
Yard 17
Highlans
Yard 16 No. 1
Tukera, et al
Gashidda No. 2
Yard 11 No. 1
Delvani
Ling Standard
Clan Severn
Yard 16 No. 3
Vlandian No. 1
Arshani, Etran
Yard 22 No. 1
Gashidda No, 3
Yard 17
Highlans
AHG, AG
Vlandian No. 3
Gashidda No. 1
Commonal
Yard 16 No. 3
Gashidda No. 2
Yard 16 No. 1
Ling Standard
Yard 11 No. 1
Delvani
Clan Severn

Kinunir construction yards:
Ling Standard
Mars
General
GSB, AG
Clan Severn
Yard 17
Yard 17
Yard 17
Ling Standard
General
Mars
GSB, AG
Clan Severn
Yard 17
Yard 17
Yard 17
General
Clan Severn
GSB, AG
Clan Severn
General

The Imperial Navy does not own its own shipyards, nor staff them, nor provide the raw materials. It may be worth going back to the history of the Imperium and seeing where the Third Imperium began, as a Federation of corporation dominated worlds. The Imperium was just a rebranding of Cleon Industries. Its major rule for member worlds it you must conduct interstellar trade on our terms, and your markets must be open to our goods...
Where the setting stops making sense is that the Imperium does not control worlds or have an economy of its own. The Imperium maintains a TL disparity and population disparity in order to keep the wealth flowing to where it belongs, in the pockets of the nobility and the Emperor.

 

[actionman]

Because all the heavy industry is automated and space is full of rocks and gas, why wouldn't the Navy refine and distribute its own fuel, extract its own raw materials and construct to suit its requirements?

The Imperial Navy probably has logistical fleets attached to its battlegroups that do just that.

 

[actionman]

This is what I was meaning by partially command economy for the military. It's not the right term, but this what I meant.
Thank you for putting it more clearly @rinku

Btw, is your username related to Erma Felna?

 

[mavikfelna]

Btw, is your username related to Erma Felna?

Yes. She is my cousin.
I got permission way back in the 80's from Steve to use it for my character.

 

[actionman]

Yes. She is my cousin.
I got permission way back in the 80's from Steve to use it for my character.

That's awesome The comics were good, and I really like the Albedo ttrpg.

 

[rinku]

Clearly *some* ship building is done in conjunction with the private sector, but the two examples, famous though they may be, are both unusual ones. And, it should be pointed out, are Spinward Marches designs that are not fleet ships.

The Kinunir class is, by Naval standards, tiny. At best, it's a local Marches project that failed. It's no stretch for a commercial yard to build, though final fitting of the

Spoiler: REDACTED

black globe

and the

Spoiler: REDACTED

AI Computer

would probably happen at a navy base.

The Lightning class is a 60,000 ton cruiser. Not insignificant, but also small enough that a big commercial yard might be able to manage it. Again, it appears to be a Spinward Marches special.

I would think that FLEET assets, would need specialist yards big enough to handle those large, armoured hulls, spinal weapons and other purely military things. And of course the Navy would be keeping all that under naval security and oversight. Even with a private concern being involved, they'd be contractors, and the yard would be overkill for any commercial ship.

To put it in real world context, no one ever designed and built an Aircraft Carrier or (in the days of Battleships) a Battleship and shopped around for a buyer. Second hand ones get sold by navies, sure, but that's military surplus. Smaller ships DO, though, especially utility and patrol craft.

 

[mavikfelna]

That's awesome The comics were good, and I really like the Albedo ttrpg.

Me too. The original Maverick Felna jumped almost full form into my head from reading Albedo Anthropomorphics Vol 0 on the way home from the comic store (Comics Utah). I decided Maverick was a stupid name, and didn't fit the setting and so changed to Mavik and that's been my main handle ever since.

You know, it would be relatively easy to adapt most of Albedo RPG, either version, to Traveller. The social dynamic rules would be the only real hard part.