T5 vs Mongoose Traveler

[captainjack23]

Yes, this is the PDF release, which seems to be some sort of pre-release version in a manner I don't fully understand so can't explain. Apparently there's 1000+ pages of it, which is going to be somehow distilled into 350 or so for print release.

the cross posts are confusing me....

So, for MJD: the CD version is delayed till march ?

So, for EDG and MJD: what posting(s) are you referring to ?

 

[EDG]

So, for EDG and MJD: what posting(s) are you referring to ?

http://travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?p=248463#post248463

In there somewhere...

 

[AKAramis]

As I've commented elsewhere, Marc wants to make this the perfect-as-he-wants-it version of Traveller. That means it's liable to be fiddled-with a lot before final release of the final version finally happens. Finally.

In simpler terms: Marc W. Miller doesn't make deadlines. Cope.

 

[EDG]

In simpler terms: Marc W. Miller doesn't make deadlines. Cope.

I suppose he thinks he's too good for them... :roll:

The thing about deadlines is that it makes things actually happen - if you keep putting it off, then it doesn't get done. There's no real defence for this in Marc's case - I seem to recall people saying "you just wait, it'll be out Jan 31st for sure, then that'll show all you doubters!". And guess what, Jan 31st has been and gone and now he's optimistically thinking it'll take an extra month (yeah right).

Rather than "cope", I think people are far more likely to lose interest and move onto other things. Particularly since MGT will probably come out before T5 comes out in any form - which leads me to point out that it's taken Mongoose about four or five months to produce most of a new, current version of the game based on CT, whereas it's taken Marc... I dunno, at least four years at the minimum to come up with T5 - a version of the game that's still looks like it was written in the 70s - and he's still making excuses?

He's had years to work on his damned T5. Literally - the playtest drafts for it were up years ago. Then the "playtest" started again on CotI in early 2005 (three years ago), except it turned out that he hadn't actually written anything that was testable and instead expected the people there to do it for him. Where it's at now I don't know, but judging from the recent three-page preview it's not changed much in all that time and it still looks fundamentally unplayable and an exercise in terminally dull, dry, nerdy overcomplication and washing-machine manual prose. There's no excuse for the endless delays and excuses, he just needs to get it done and over with, so that everyone can revel in disappointment at the final result and then go back to playing whatever version of the game they're playing already...

(Edit: toned down the defensiveness, I mistook Aramis' intent)

 

[captainjack23]

In simpler terms: Marc W. Miller doesn't make deadlines. Cope.

I suppose he thinks he's too good for them, does he? :roll:
The thing about deadlines is that it makes things actually happen. If you keep putting it off, then it doesn't get done. There's no real defence for this - I seem to recall people saying "you just wait, it'll be out Jan 31st for sure, then that'll show all you doubters!". And guess what, Jan 31st has been and gone and he's optimistically thinking it'll take an extra month (yeah right).

Rather than "cope", I think people are far more likely to lose interest and move onto other things. Particularly since MGT will probably come out before T5 comes out in any form (which leads me to point out that it's taken Mongoose about four months to produce a new, current version of the game based on CT, whereas it's taken Marc... I dunno, at least four years at the minimum to come up with T5 - a version of the game that's still looks like it was written in the 70s? Yeah, clearly he's a great game designer...)

He's had years to work on his damned T5. Literally - the playtest drafts for it were up years ago. Then the "playtest" started again on CotI in early 2005 (three years ago), except it turned out that he hadn't actually written anything that was testable and instead expected the people there to do it for him. Where it's at now I don't know, but judging from the recent three-page preview it's not changed much in all that time and it still looks fundamentally unplayable and an exercise in terminally dull, dry, nerdy overcomplication and washing-machine manual prose. There's no excuse for the endless delays and excuses, he just needs to get it done and over with, so that everyone can revel in disappointment at the final result and then go back to playing whatever version of the game they're playing already...

So don't give us that "cope" crap. There's no reason for anyone to bother "coping" with it. And the more he puts off his deadlines to do more tweaks the more people will lose interest in it.

Coping: Just something that happens to other people, eh ?

 

[EDG]

Deleted - I took Aramis' post the wrong way, sorry.

 

[captainjack23]

Coping: Just something that happens to other people, eh ?

No, it was just a really stupid statement for Aramis to make. "Cope", indeed. Why the hell should anyone be required to "cope" with someone who clearly can't get it together enough to release a final product even when he officially announces it after spending years working on it?

Well, why not just ask MWM about the delay next time you talk to him ?

 

[SableWyvern]

There's no real defence for this in Marc's case

Well, yeah, there is: "It's my project, and I'll take as long as I feel I need."

This is muddied a bit by the fact that he has accepted pre-orders on the basis of an established deadline, but he did send out emails offering refunds to those for whom this is not acceptable (I would expect anyone failing to deliver promised goods to honour a request for a refund, but don't expect them to necessarily suggest a refund as an option up-front).

If other people want to make boasts on MWM's behalf indicating it will definitely be out on time ... well, you should be taking the issue up with them, not with Marc.

Either the market is willing to put up with continued delays, or it is not. If MWM is prepared to bet that they will ... well, best of luck to him. I'm guessing he's right.

 

[EDG]

There's no real defence for this in Marc's case

Well, yeah, there is: "It's my project, and I'll take as long as I feel I need."

That's not a "real defence" by a longshot. It's all very well if you're just doing something for yourself - you can take as long as you like then. But if you're doing something where other people are involved, getting people excited, getting their hopes up, and what's more taking their money then just taking forever over it is pure selfishness. He clearly can't manage his project properly on his own (witness how long he's been working on T5 without outsiders involved), but if his current crop of playtesters aren't keeping him in line and keeping the pressure on him to just wrap things up in a timely manner and move on then they're not doing their job properly.

(I would expect anyone failing to deliver promised goods to honour a request for a refund, but don't expect them to necessarily suggest a refund as an option up-front).

And it's nice that he's done that - at least one of his lackeys could learn something from him in that regard. (I'd disagree strongly with you though - if someone doesn't deliver the goods then I absolutely expect them to offer me a refund as soon as the problem becomes apparent and I will certainly do everything in my power to get my money back if they're difficult about it).

 

[SableWyvern]

That's not a "real defence" by a longshot. It's all very well if you're just doing something for yourself - you can take as long as you like then.

Since I essentially regard T5 as a vanity project rather than a normal commercial venture, it's enough for me. Further, I think that a prospective buyer doing some basic research will realise this - caveat emptor applies.

Having said that, there's no reason for potential customers to be content with this state of affairs, and it is in their interests to apply pressure to MWM to get the job done - especially if they've forked over cash and want their product.

So, I agree with you inasmuch as MWM's behaviour isn't good business. I'm just not convinced he's really trying to run a business with T5; instead it looks to me as if he's running a pet project with the hopes of making a bit of money back. He's within his rights to take as long as he wants, and potential customers are free to say, "Fine, I'll take my money elsewhere."

 

[captainjack23]

There's no real defence for this in Marc's case

Well, yeah, there is: "It's my project, and I'll take as long as I feel I need."

That's not a "real defence" by a longshot. It's all very well if you're just doing something for yourself - you can take as long as you like then. But if you're doing something where other people are involved, getting people excited, getting their hopes up, and what's more taking their money then just taking forever over it is pure selfishness. He clearly can't manage his project properly on his own (witness how long he's been working on T5 without outsiders involved), but if his current crop of playtesters aren't keeping him in line and keeping the pressure on him to just wrap things up in a timely manner and move on then they're not doing their job properly.

(I would expect anyone failing to deliver promised goods to honour a request for a refund, but don't expect them to necessarily suggest a refund as an option up-front).

And it's nice that he's done that - at least one of his lackeys could learn something from him in that regard. (I'd disagree strongly with you though - if someone doesn't deliver the goods then I absolutely expect them to offer me a refund as soon as the problem becomes apparent and I will certainly do everything in my power to get my money back if they're difficult about it).

I'm confused....have you preordered T5 ?

And seriously, I'm suprised you don't just ask him ....

 

[EDG]

He's within his rights to take as long as he wants, and potential customers are free to say, "Fine, I'll take my money elsewhere."

I guess what annoys me is that Traveller fans seem to be a peculiar breed of people who are willing to tolerate massive levels of delays, excuses, general mismanagement, and/or other bad practices... and still throw more money at the people involved and pretend it's all OK as long as they get what they wanted eventually.

I just find that utterly baffling.

 

[EDG]

I'm confused....have you preordered T5 ?

Nope, I just made the mistake of getting involved in the CotI "playtest" of it. That told me everything I needed to know about the game and about Marc's attitude to people.

And seriously, I'm suprised you don't just ask him ....

Let's just say we're not on talking terms. I don't have the blind faith in him that some people do and don't share in their adulation of him - to me he's just another game designer (and not a good one) whose current work demonstrates that he's long since had his day.

 

[captainjack23]

And seriously, I'm suprised you don't just ask him ....

Let's just say we're not on talking terms. I don't have the blind faith in him that some people do and don't share in their adulation of him - to me he's just another game designer (and not a good one) whose current work demonstrates that he's long since had his day.

I'm honestly surprised, given your willingness to talk about his opinions, motivations and plans, I assumed there was some kind of communication....you know, friendly rivals...somthing. So all those definitive proclamations about what MWM thinks about realism, play and etc is just....uh....made up ? Imagined ? Inferred ?

Surprising behavior from someone who always insists that people not put words in his mouth.....and insists on evidence based argument.

 

[EDG]

So all those definitive proclamations about what MWM thinks about realism, play and etc is just....uh....made up ? Imagined ? Inferred ?

No, they're observed from the CotI playtest and from communication with him at the time. I don't have such strong opinions on the subject just for the hell of it.

 

[SableWyvern]

I guess what annoys me is that Traveller fans seem to be a peculiar breed of people who are willing to tolerate massive levels of delays, excuses, general mismanagement, and/or other bad practices... and still throw more money at the people involved and pretend it's all OK as long as they get what they wanted eventually.

I just find that utterly baffling.

Well, I've never been involved enough with Traveller to be part of the specfic demographic you're referring to, but I am someone who has pre-ordered T5 and is unconcerned with slipping deadlines.

Essentially, T5 was an impulse buy for me. Possibly a very poor one, but my final decision to order was based on the knowledge that I could afford to take a gamble and waste a few dollars without any noticeable impact on my finances. If the game turns out utterly useless to me, the opportunity cost is negligible. Hopefully, in amongst 1,000 pages, there's some stuff I can use. I haven't been waiting years for the game, only since Nov or Dec last year, so my patience hasn't really been tested. And, since I don't expect to actually be running a Traveller game until late this year at the earliest, there's no sense of urgency for me about the release.

So, perhaps you can be a little less baffled about one customer, at least.

 

[captainjack23]

So all those definitive proclamations about what MWM thinks about realism, play and etc is just....uh....made up ? Imagined ? Inferred ?

No, they're observed from the CotI playtest and from communication with him at the time. I don't have such strong opinions on the subject just for the hell of it.

Okay, so it's a big hairy grudge with lots of big angry emotional baggage....
I'll keep mind in the future when you speak ex cathedra of CT, Marc and T5. Oh yes, and "lackeys" (bet I know who that is, in context). And CT players.

....Amazing what people choose to hang on to.

 

[EDG]

Okay, so it's a big hairy grudge with lots of big angry emotional baggage...

Sorry, I forgot that I'm expected to be a robot with no strong feelings about anything :roll: . I went into that T5 playtest with high expectations and no pre-assumptions - I came out of it sorely disappointed and feeling like I'd been taken for a ride and had my time wasted, and I had lost any respect I had for Marc because of that (and I wasn't the only one feeling that way. Marc lost a lot of potentially good playtesters because of the attitude he showed toward them - all that remained behind were a small hardcore crowd of sycophants). So you'll forgive me if I don't have happy feelings for the guy, and I suspect that most people put in that situation would feel the same way. If you think you're above that sort of thing then bully for you.

I'll keep mind in the future when you speak ex cathedra of CT, Marc and T5.

At least my opinions are based on the experiences I've had with those things. It's unfortunate that they're negative, but I don't see negativity as a reason to dismiss them.

 

[AKAramis]

Anyone stupid enough to pay MWM for a product not yet released (given the ease of finding out how BAD he is about meeting deadlines) does need to cope... or to sue him for false advertisement.

I'm not so stupid; Every product so far announced has been (AFAICT) late. Some a few days, others a few weeks, still others have been vaporware for years.

 

[EDG]

Oops. Sorry Aramis, I think I actually owe you an apology (*gasp*). I thought your "cope" comment was directed at people pointing out that Marc was late again (hence my defensive reaction), but I think (given your last post) that you meant it more at the people who were surprised that he was late.

I know I'm not surprised by it, I'm just amused that he couldn't keep his own deadline (and I don't think MJD is surprised by it either).