Swords in Arms of Legend.

[Sleepy Fremen]

I'm new to Legend and have been enjoying it so far. I am a bit confused about the differences between bastard swords and long swords. They mostly do the same the damage except bastard swords get +1 two handed and long swords count as large weapons two handed. The description would seem to describe the same weapon though. Historically to my knowledge a longsword is a bastard sword. Then there are broadswords what weapon historically does this refer to? My interpretation of war swords in the knightly arming swords with a one handed grip. The only reason I ask is like my games to follow a historical constant as much as possible. Apologies if this question has been asked already.

 

[@stroval]

Fixed terms for swords are of course a relatively recent addition used for classification. Depending of the time period(and country) a bastard sword could be shorter or equal in size with a longsword(or to make matters worse a longsword could be a term for a rapier)

That said, in gaming and other sources a bastard sword is usually a mix between two swords; either a longsword and a bigger type of sword or a short sword and a longsword. So its up to you if you want it longer or smaller than a longsword.



A broad sword would be a thicker version of a rapier (usually with a basket hilt)

I am not familiar with the term War sword. I pressume its a blade of oriental(specificaly chinese) origins?

 

[Sleepy Fremen]

I am not familiar with the term War sword. I pressume its a blade of oriental(specificaly chinese) origins?

[/quote]

War sword is what the standard sword is called in the Arms of Legend book, which I interpret as what is now classified as a an arming sword Oakeshott type X-XI. As for broadsword I guess I didnt think the basket-hilted side-sword was what it was trying to represent as it gives options for two handed use, which you really cant fit on those basket-hilted types. As for the difference between bastard swords and long swords I get that one can be interpreted as having a longer blade in addition to a longer grip but that doesnt explain why it doesnt get the large size bonus two-handed.

 

[strega]

Forget what you might find in Oakshott et al.
Fantasy swords have to cover a wide variety of time periods and sword names changed as often as the civilisations that used them.

What is called a long sword might apply to a specific weapon at a specific time and might be called something different at another time and place. Because Legend covers a huge variety of times and places they throw a whole pile of weapons into the mix and it is down to the person setting up the campaign to define the combat styles and the weapons that apply to them.

It is the same with armour, not one set of scale armour can be applied to all the times and places that used armour made up of overlapping plates. It's down to the GM to set up his campaign with a subset of armour and weapons to match the period of history or the style of game he or she is trying to emulate.

As an example if you are running a Arabian Nights game then scimitars should be the only sword type used by 99.9% of the local people. And they are clad in chain or scale armour and not plate.

 

[Sleepy Fremen]

Forget what you might find in Oakshott et al.
Fantasy swords have to cover a wide variety of time periods and sword names changed as often as the civilisations that used them.

What is called a long sword might apply to a specific weapon at a specific time and might be called something different at another time and place. Because Legend covers a huge variety of times and places they throw a whole pile of weapons into the mix and it is down to the person setting up the campaign to define the combat styles and the weapons that apply to them.

It is the same with armour, not one set of scale armour can be applied to all the times and places that used armour made up of overlapping plates. It's down to the GM to set up his campaign with a subset of armour and weapons to match the period of history or the style of game he or she is trying to emulate.

As an example if you are running a Arabian Nights game then scimitars should be the only sword type used by 99.9% of the local people. And they are clad in chain or scale armour and not plate.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. I think its true that weapons in Runequest are often meant to emulate fantasy swords and there is nothing wrong with that. For example I think a broadsword is meant to be like a Conan the Barbarian style sword.

 

[Bifford]

A bastard sword is one that can be Either wielded one or two handed. The grip area of the hilt is generally bigger than a single hand but not *comfortably* big enough to wield with two hands for any length of time...it's sort of a squeeze.

So usually you would use it one handed, but if you need the extra power and motion of a two-handed sword you can do so.

 

[Sleepy Fremen]

A bastard sword is one that can be Either wielded one or two handed. The grip area of the hilt is generally bigger than a single hand but not *comfortably* big enough to wield with two hands for any length of time...it's sort of a squeeze.

So usually you would use it one handed, but if you need the extra power and motion of a two-handed sword you can do so.

I know what a bastard sword is, my confusion is more along the lines between the difference between the longsword and bastard as presented in Arms of Legend. The description found in the Arms of Legend book is as follows:

Longsword: The longsword is a versatile sword with an elongated grip, which allows it
to be wielded with either one hand or two. Its extra length adds to its reach, and used
two handed it inflicts greater damage.

Here's the description for the bastard sword found in the same book:

Bastard Sword: The bastard sword is a versatile sword with an elongated grip, which
allows it to be used with either one hand or two. Any bastard sword can be fitted
with a widened set of pommel-guards, adding +5% to Parry Skill Tests with it, for an
additional 10 SP.

The difference in descriptions seems to be that one has extra length and one can fit a widened set of pommel-guards as far as I can tell.

 

[strega]

So what you might do with all the weapons in Arms is look at what you are trying to emulate and limit the types of weapons to those that fit.

If I run a Lankhmar game then the majority of people one comes across are going to have something that fits in with the material in that setting. So no full plate, rapiers and scimtars with combat styles that match - Lankhmarian Street Bravo for example with Rapier, Dagger(Parrying) and maybe the half cape from Arms.

Players don't get unlimited choice of weapons as you limit their choices to suitable ones in conjunction with weapon styles.

If you want to set a game in 12th Century England then a different set of criteria come into play. So a knightly sword might be called a War Sword (and often is in inventories and chronicles) so as GM you pick one of the multiple possibilities and call it 12th century War Sword and use whatever stats you feel suit the Knightly Combat style you set up.

Another example, if you don't allow plate body armour then there is not need to allow any of the weapons designed in the 14th and 15th centuries for punching through plate armour or it's joints. The Rondel for example was described on the TV program about finding Richard III as typical of the type of weapon that caused some of his wounds. The Halberd or the War Hammer/Poll/Poleaxe, another weapon peculiar to the same time period, is unlikely to have appeared without the need for a weapon to smash through armour.

 

[soltakss]

The bastard sword was written up in RQ yonks ago. The Longsword was a recent addition for MRQ and has survived into Legend.

In my opinion, the Longsword is just a less rude version of the Bastard Sword.

 

[Sleepy Fremen]

The bastard sword was written up in RQ yonks ago. The Longsword was a recent addition for MRQ and has survived into Legend.

In my opinion, the Longsword is just a less rude version of the Bastard Sword.

Comedy gold and an insight into the question I was unaware of.

 

[Prime_Evil]

The article on Wikipedia is decent, even if it does skim over some of the controversies:

The German langes schwert ("long sword") in 15th-century manuals does not denote a type of weapon, but the technique of fencing with both hands at the hilt, contrasting with kurzes schwert ("short sword") used of fencing with the same weapon, but with one hand gripping the blade (also known as half-sword). It is only in the later 16th century that the term langes schwert can be shown to be applied to a type of sword.

The term "hand-and-a-half sword" is modern (late 19th century). During the first half of the 20th century, the term "bastard sword" was used regularly to refer to this type of sword, while "long sword" (or "long-sword"), if used at all, referred to the rapier (in the context of Renaissance or Early Modern fencing).

The terms langes schwert ("long sword") and épée bâtarde ("bastard sword") are attested in 16th century documents, but from different regions.The term 'bastard sword' was certainly known in England by the Tudor period, so it may be the more "authentic" English term. But it is very unclear whether these two terms referred to the exactly same weapon design as it appears that the meaning of both terms changed over the course of the 15th and 16th centuries. I rather like the solution adopted by GURPS Low-Tech, which defines the longsword as a light thrusting bastard sword....