Swing a Sword, Throw a Dagger, and more!

[slaughterj]

If you have a sword and dagger in your hands, is there anything that allows or prohibits you to both swing the sword and throw the dagger?

It seems that many characters will use a sword and dagger (or whatnot) since they will have Two-Weapon Combat Proficiency, and can therefore get two attacks with no penalty this way, and it seems just as reasonable that the character could either swing both weapons, or swing the sword and throw the dagger.

Also, if he is attacking with both weapons, presumably he can regular attack with the sword and finesse attack with the dagger if desired?

And what about Power Attack, can you power attack with the sword, but not power attack with the dagger and just finesse with it? It seems reasonable to me, but the Power Attack feat mentions subtracting the same number from all melee attacks as is added to damage, but maybe they did not consider someone wielding two weapons when writing this?

 

[argo]

If you have a sword and dagger in your hands, is there anything that allows or prohibits you to both swing the sword and throw the dagger?

Yes, you may swing your sword and throw the dagger, you can even make a melee attack with the dagger and then throw the dagger as a ranged attack (assuming you have enough attacks in a full attack). Note morover that thrown weapon attacks stack with both TWF and Rapid Shot. So a first level character with Quick Draw, Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot could throw 3 daggers in a full round attack: main hand throw, off hand throw and Rapid Shot throw.

Also, if he is attacking with both weapons, presumably he can regular attack with the sword and finesse attack with the dagger if desired?

Yes, no problem here. He adds his Str to attack and AP and damage with the sword and with the dagger he adds Dex to attack and Str to damage and nothing to AP (base weapon AP only).

And what about Power Attack, can you power attack with the sword, but not power attack with the dagger and just finesse with it? It seems reasonable to me, but the Power Attack feat mentions subtracting the same number from all melee attacks as is added to damage, but maybe they did not consider someone wielding two weapons when writing this?

No. The penalty from PA applies to all attacks in the round just as the feat says. Same thing goes for other similar penalties such as Combat Expertise, Rapid Shot penalty and TWF penalty (if any, such as for wielding two one handed weapons).

Hope that helps.

 

[slaughterj]

Nice responses!

And what about Power Attack, can you power attack with the sword, but not power attack with the dagger and just finesse with it? It seems reasonable to me, but the Power Attack feat mentions subtracting the same number from all melee attacks as is added to damage, but maybe they did not consider someone wielding two weapons when writing this?

No. The penalty from PA applies to all attacks in the round just as the feat says. Same thing goes for other similar penalties such as Combat Expertise, Rapid Shot penalty and TWF penalty (if any, such as for wielding two one handed weapons).

Hope that helps.

Sure, it says "all" attacks for Power Attack, but it doesn't have to be, and would be bad for the aforementioned person doing the regular sword swing and the finesse dagger stab, because the penalty to hit would make the finesse harder - I wouldn't want the bluntly written Power Attack description to cause a person to skip the finesse attempt in lieu of a regular attack. Note, you can't draw a parallel to Combat Expertise, but it would be nonsensical with the attack penalty to apply across the board since the defense bonus is constant. I think I might apply Power Attack modifiers on a by-weapon basis if the issue arises during the game.

 

[argo]

Sure, it says "all" attacks for Power Attack, but it doesn't have to be,

Well, the RAW says it "does have to be" :wink:

and would be bad for the aforementioned person doing the regular sword swing and the finesse dagger stab, because the penalty to hit would make the finesse harder

Well, this is the part where you tell the TWF he can't have his cake and eat it too. Not all combat choices synergize with each other equally well.

However, if you are willing to house rule then I would suggest you house rule that a light weapon may be used to PA at a 1:1 ratio (same as one handed weapons). I use that IMC and have had no problems.

Later.

 

[slaughterj]

Oh, I wasn't saying that the rule didn't read that way, just that it shouldn't Probably was simpler to write it that way.

Why do you loosen up and allow Power Attack for light weapons, because of this issue or in general? That sounds like a good alternative to solve this problem, and it seems if you can power attack with your fist, then what's the harm in allowing it for dagger!

 

[Trodax]

If you have a sword and dagger in your hands, is there anything that allows or prohibits you to both swing the sword and throw the dagger?

Yes, this is fine as noted. Just remember that launching a ranged attack provokes an attack of opportunity, so you might not want to do it if you're in the thick of a fight.

That sounds like a good alternative to solve this problem, and it seems if you can power attack with your fist, then what's the harm in allowing it for dagger!

Ramming your dagger through someones skull with devastating force? That works for me too!

 

[slaughterj]

If you have a sword and dagger in your hands, is there anything that allows or prohibits you to both swing the sword and throw the dagger?

Yes, this is fine as noted. Just remember that launching a ranged attack provokes an attack of opportunity, so you might not want to do it if you're in the thick of a fight.

Good point! But I can see it as useful if you just felled one foe with your sword, and wanted to flick a dagger at another foe.

 

[argo]

Why do you loosen up and allow Power Attack for light weapons, because of this issue or in general? That sounds like a good alternative to solve this problem, and it seems if you can power attack with your fist, then what's the harm in allowing it for dagger!

Not so much because of this particular issue. It might help to explain the reason why the WotC designers made PA follow the 0:1:2 progression in the first place.

From a certain design perspective 3.0 PA (where it was 1:1 for all weapons, including light weapons) gave too good a tradeoff for light weapons. This is apparent when you look at it from the angle of a cost/benefit analysis centered on average damage. Example, take a 1d4 dagger and now PA for 1. You take a 5% penalty to your chance to-hit and in exchange you average damage goes from 2 to 3, a 50% increase. Now compare that with a 2d10 greatsword (still using 3.0 PA where it is 1:1 for two handed weapons) and PA for 1. The greatsword wielder takes the same 5% penalty to-hit but his average damage only goes from 10 to 11, a 10% increase.

Couched in those terms it is obvious that the smaller your weapons the better PA is for you. The WotC designers felt that they wanted PA to be the feat for guys using big weapons so they changed it to 0:1:2 progression in 3.5

Now, as I said that all makes sense if you accept the basic prepositions, espically the idea the PA is supposed to be "for the guys with big weapons". However I personally take a more "abstract" view of this design and I feel that PA is the feat for "guys who want to focus on offense/damage". I have no problem conceptually picturing a PA with a dagger as an exampel of the attacker passing up on the easy hit to land a telling blow. So IMC I let you get 1:1 PA with light weapons. However I do keep 1:2 PA for two-handed weapons since I feel that sort of "crushing blow" is apropos for a Conan game.

Anyway, thats just how I feel.

Later.

 

[bc99]

I thought you added your str to the AP of finesse weapons when using a finesse attack?

Eh? :?:

 

[Trodax]

I thought you added your str to the AP of finesse weapons when using a finesse attack?

Eh? :?:

No, regular melee attacks add Str to AP. Finesse attacks don't do this, but instead let you completely bypass armour if you roll higher than your opponents Defence+DR.
Example: You finesse attack someone with a Defence of 15 who is clad in a leather jerkin (DR 4). If you roll 15-18, you hit normally and armour is applied. If you roll 19 or more (ie. Defence+DR) then you hit and your opponent doesn't get to use his armour at all.

 

[slaughterj]

I thought you added your str to the AP of finesse weapons when using a finesse attack?

Eh? :?:

No, regular melee attacks add Str to AP. Finesse attacks don't do this, but instead let you completely bypass armour if you roll higher than your opponents Defence+DR.
Example: You finesse attack someone with a Defence of 15 who is clad in a leather jerkin (DR 4). If you roll 15-18, you hit normally and armour is applied. If you roll 19 or more (ie. Defence+DR) then you hit and your opponent doesn't get to use his armour at all.

Quite true. And though I don't think it is spelled out anywhere, I think if the base AP of the weapon equalled the DR of the target, you would still get to halve their DR if you didn't finesse around it. For example, if you finesse attack with a War Sword (AP 3) against a Defense 15 foe wearing a Quilted Jerkin (DR 3), if you roll a 19, you finesse around the armor and ignore it, but if you roll a 15-18, you hit the target and his armor is applied but the armor is halved (presumably to DR 1?) because your weapon's base AP 3 was still enough to equal the DR 3 of the armor. This is about the only time it will come up though.

 

[bc99]

Ahhh, thanks for clearing that up, it makes sense to me now. We've only played about 5 sessions, and some of the stuff is a little bit foggy still.

We do add our str to the damage though, with a finesse attack? Yes?

Thanks!

 

[slaughterj]

Ahhh, thanks for clearing that up, it makes sense to me now. We've only played about 5 sessions, and some of the stuff is a little bit foggy still.

We do add our str to the damage though, with a finesse attack? Yes?

Thanks!

Yes, with a finesse attack, the STR bonus does apply to damage, just not to armor piercing.

 

[Sutek]

You add your STR to the roll to hit if you aren't using DEX, but you cannot apply your STR to AP when making a Finesses attack.

You can also add your STR to the damage.