Sub Merchant and Sub Liner

[Geir]

Books? How very 20th century...

Tried Kindle. Hated it.
And PDFs are great for reference, terrible for reading.

Isn't that what you do every time you move?

In my first 35 years of life, I had 18 addresses across two continents, and had to keep things lean.
In one of those moves my parents disposed of more than 300 books, include boxed sets of paperbacks (they were a thing back then). I'm still peeved about it. There may have been some... psychological compensation (and back in the 20th century they had these things call Book of the Month Clubs, where once a month... yeah.)
I've been at this address for 25 years... something tells me I can no longer move with a small rental truck or a couple of pickup truck runs.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

And PDFs are great for reference, terrible for reading.

Absolutely agreed.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Absolutely agreed.

I want to get a big tablet to see if that improves the pdf experience.

 

[Condottiere]

Technological level twelve is jump factor/three and manoeuvre factor/six.

I'd say in terms of performance, a fast liner is jump factor/three, and manoeuvre factor/five.

Tonnage, whatever the market will bear.

 

[rinku]

Traveller factoid - the subsidised merchant at 400t breaks the rules presented in LBB:2, yup Traveller authors were ignoring their own rules all the way back in their first rulebook

"Subsidies: The government may subsidize larger commercial vessels (built on type 600 hulls or larger), primarily to assure consistent service to specific worlds."

That's not an exclusive statement though. Just because there are subsidies available on 600+ ton designs doesn't preclude smaller ones.

It's more correct to say that the 400 ton Subbie is a common exception to that general practice.

 

[Condottiere]

It could be barebones.

 

[rinku]

Yeah, reading that section in context, it's really talking about the specific situation of when a player wants to build a ship and get the government to chip in. THAT requires a 600+ ton hull, but in exchange for all the rest of the rules in that section.

In addition, there are two standard ships with subsidized in their name. The Fat Trader is too small for the 600 ton subsidy program, but I'm sure the captain of one can cut a deal of some sort with the locals to help cover operating costs in exchange for sticking around.

Or that local governments do often build them and hire crew to operate them.

 

[Sigtrygg]

That's not an exclusive statement though. Just because there are subsidies available on 600+ ton designs doesn't preclude smaller ones.

It's more correct to say that the 400 ton Subbie is a common exception to that general practice.

The exception that ignores the rule...
tell me, if they had designed the subsidised merchant as per their own "suggestion" of 600t minimum then would the "suggestion" be a rule?

Or are you saying that if we can find examples where things are not precluded than we can ignore suggestions...

 

[boggo2300]

The exception that ignores the rule...
tell me, if they had designed the subsidised merchant as per their own "suggestion" of 600t minimum then would the "suggestion" be a rule?

Or are you saying that if we can find examples where things are not precluded than we can ignore suggestions...

you can always ignore suggestions, they are after all, only suggestions. and the word MAY in there always means it will be a suggestion not a rule no matter what ship called "subsidised" is what tonnage wise.

 

[Condottiere]

Performance was usually based on the engineering compartment volume allocation.

Actual tonnage would be based on expected, wished for, or optimal traffic.

 

[phavoc]

Traveller factoid - the subsidised merchant at 400t breaks the rules presented in LBB:2, yup Traveller authors were ignoring their own rules all the way back in their first rulebook

"Subsidies: The government may subsidize larger commercial vessels (built on type 600 hulls or larger), primarily to assure consistent service to specific worlds."

Who doesn't love consistency??

 

[phavoc]

Probably, but I have those original LBBs as a physical copy in a box, in a chest, under other boxes, in a closet, blocked by computers and more boxes. So they're safe... but... I'd probably start an avalanche getting to them. Or sprain something. Definitely trip over something. So I'm not going to check those.

We dread the eventual day when we move... my sister-in-law joked we'll need his and hers dumpsters, blue and pink, to clear everything out. Don't buy a five bedroom home when you're only two people and you both like to collect things...

This is why they invented adjustable book shelves. Some very bright person in the past just knew that people would want to collect crap over the years and shelving really helps with that.

Don't ask me who came up with the idea of offering off-site storage as a way to give people more opportunities to store crap they really don't need. Someone very, very rich I suspect.

 

[phavoc]

I agree with this in principle, but I am not sure the rules really support that view as it is cheaper to ship things faster in Traveller.

1 ton 2 parsecs at Jump-1 is 2,000Cr 2 weeks
1 ton 2 parsecs at Jump-2 is 1,600Cr 1 week

1 ton 3 parsecs at Jump-1 is 3,000Cr 3 weeks
1 ton 3 parsecs at Jump-3 is 2,600Cr 1 week

1 ton 4 parsecs at Jump-1 is 4,000Cr 4 weeks
1 ton 4 parsecs at Jump-2 is 3,200Cr 2 weeks
1 ton 4 parsecs at Jump-4 is 4,400Cr 1 week

1 ton 5 parsecs at Jump-1 is 5,000Cr 5 weeks
1 ton 5 parsecs at Jump-5 is 8,500Cr 1 week

1 ton 6 parsecs at Jump-1 is 6,000Cr 6 weeks
1 ton 6 parsecs at Jump-2 is 4,800Cr 3 weeks
1 ton 6 parsecs at Jump-3 is 5,200Cr 2 weeks
1 ton 6 parsecs at Jump-6 is 32,000Cr 1 week

Once you add in the extra costs for Maintenance, life support, extra weeks of salaries, amount of extra time that you lose having to stop and refuel every jump, etc. There does seem to be a sweet spot in the J-2 to J-3 range though.

So, I am not sure that rule holds true in Traveller.

Yeah, I haven't run the cargo numbers for Traveller. The rules skew things a bit by requiring more crew when automation today reduces the overall number of crew any cargo vessel handles. A pressurized cargo hold would require very little life support if the cargo isn't alive (and a fusion plant would have oodles of power for LED lighting and what should pretty efficient cooling units in reefers of the 52nd century).

Of course, today's mega-freighters crews don't do much other than make sure the engines have oil and the ship makes it between ports. Dock workers load/unload them for the most part, so Traveller crew sizes are all wrong, too, if you think about it.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Yeah, I haven't run the cargo numbers for Traveller. The rules skew things a bit by requiring more crew when automation today reduces the overall number of crew any cargo vessel handles. A pressurized cargo hold would require very little life support if the cargo isn't alive (and a fusion plant would have oodles of power for LED lighting and what should pretty efficient cooling units in reefers of the 52nd century).

Of course, today's mega-freighters crews don't do much other than make sure the engines have oil and the ship makes it between ports. Dock workers load/unload them for the most part, so Traveller crew sizes are all wrong, too, if you think about it.

I made freighters that carry external cargo and passenger pods that can be loaded and unloaded without crew intervention. Captures some of that feel.

 

[phavoc]

I made freighters that carry external cargo and passenger pods that can be loaded and unloaded without crew intervention. Captures some of that feel.

I've always been torn on the economics of LASH in space. It failed economically here because it wasn't (economical). In Traveller terms it comes down to a couple of things as I see it. First is just how much of the hull cost is tied up in the hull itself? Any cargo pod that's carried externally has to (or should) be made of the same materials as a starship, thus it ain't gonna be cheap. Sure, you could build cheap hulls, but if you can do it for cargo why can't you do it for ships for those who are forever fiscally challenged and willing to take on the risks? Second, just what all other stuff would you need to put in that external pod to make it fully self-contained? Costs that essentially get duplicated between your ship hull and your carrier hull? As min/max Traveller players will tell you - nothing! In a reality you'd need all kinds of safety and redundancy built into these things to be allowed to be deployed. There's a lot to unpack here if you want to be fair in the designs.

The Traveller economy has many, umm, let's be charitable and call them "gaps" in it's model. It's a game, so hey, I'm good with that. Beyond that so much is speculatory that nearly every idea has some sort of basis in "yeah, maybe so".

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

I made freighters that carry external cargo and passenger pods that can be loaded and unloaded without crew intervention. Captures some of that feel.

I made modular freighters which just unload the module into a compatible slot at the station then dock to load up another module preloaded and waiting for them. Even passenger modules that can be unloaded into the Hotel Station, passengers just stay in their rooms and they are now hotel rooms rather than ship rooms. Then it is refuels and off they go.

Helps explain why "the big boys" get all the profits, 3 jumps a month at least. Ships coming in have info on the upcoming loads that were being prepared and projected dates so return loads are constantly prepared for them. Non modular ships with all their deal making and loading/unloading being done while they sit in port just can't compete. Not to mention if your passenger section needs refurbishing you just leave it behind and use another one while the original is rebuilt (or sold to a budget line) without taking the ship out of service.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I made modular freighters which just unload the module into a compatible slot at the station then dock to load up another module preloaded and waiting for them. Even passenger modules that can be unloaded into the Hotel Station, passengers just stay in their rooms and they are now hotel rooms rather than ship rooms. Then it is refuels and off they go.

Helps explain why "the big boys" get all the profits, 3 jumps a month at least. Ships coming in have info on the upcoming loads that were being prepared and projected dates so return loads are constantly prepared for them. Non modular ships with all their deal making and loading/unloading being done while they sit in port just can't compete. Not to mention if your passenger section needs refurbishing you just leave it behind and use another one while the original is rebuilt (or sold to a budget line) without taking the ship out of service.

Very similar to what I’m doing. Very fast turnaround.

 

[Condottiere]

You could wire up a container with factor/zero manoeuvre drives.

They can load, and unload, themselves.

 

[Terry Mixon]

You could wire up a container with factor/zero manoeuvre drives.

They can load, and unload, themselves.

The spacers union says you gotta use utility tugs.

That said, I’ll experiment with that and a robotic pilot.

 

[rinku]

You can only compare Traveller ships to modern nautical ones to a certain degree. Modern ships aren't out of all communication half the time, or smashing through an alternative reality to get to where they're going. But hey, Mongoose does indeed let you automate most functions if you really want to.

As far as freight costs... yeah. Slow boats don't pay over multiple jumps for the customer. J-2 and J-3 shipping would be usual if there is any choice in the matter.

As for auto unloading... just sign the robots up. Good Union members, those droids.