Strike as One: Kai Lord Weaponsmastery

[Joseph_of_Orb]

Hello all.

I'd like to chat about the Strike as One ability, from Tier 5 of weaponsmastery. First, lets look at it, without feats, as the design intended.

Level 15 (minimum for the ability).
Number of attacks: 3. 11/6/1
Weapon: Claymore.
Normal Damage: 2d6+8
(Lets assume a +2 weapon, and at least a +2 STR bonus. +2 damage from weaponskill, +2 from weaponsmatery)

Strike as One Damage: 6d6+24
Avg Damage: 42

Okay, this is good damage. we know this. now, lets think about sundering someone's weapon. If you hit, and at a -2 to strike, its likely, Its done.


Now, lets talk about a converted character, thats allowed feats, which some DM's are doing. In this case, lets talk about my lvl 11 kai lord, and the uber badass he'll be one day.

Feats: two weapon fighting, improved two weapon, greater two weapon.
Weapon: short sword
Damage: Sword 1 - 1d6 + 7. Sword 2: 1d6 + 5
Strike as one damage: 6d6 + 72.
thats 6 x 1d6 and 6 x 12
Average Damage: 90
Chance to hit them: 11 + 1 (weaponskill) + 1 (sword) -2 = 11
Chance of hitting with 6 attacks: 11/6/1 (weaponskill and a +1 weapon nullify the -2 penalty).

Massive Damage Rule: 50 points of damage - fort save 14 or die. If you live.

What about sundering? Well, hardness or not, 90 damage means buhbye.

Note: this ability applies to everything. things that are immune to crit are not immune to this. There is no specification on whether you can critical during this ability, not that you need to.

This is but one ability that makes the Kai Lord utterly crazy.

 

[SableWyvern]

So, are you simply pointing out that feats and Lone Wolf core rules combine to make characters that are exceedingly powerful? There doesn't actually seem to be much to chat about.

 

[Joseph_of_Orb]

Of course its something to talk about.

There has been discussion on the boards about the inclusion of feats with the Lone Wolf characters, and how it works out. I'm providing a well thought out example to show that when classes are used elsewhere, they probably should not be given feats.

But I guess its easier to say "Thats nothing to talk about" then to actually think of something to say, or discuss the post. So thanks for your two cents.

 

[Joseph_of_Orb]

I was just thinking on this a bit more. And I realized, my greatsword example is a bit off.

Let's assume a 14 in Str. Then you put your lvl 4, 8, and 12 point in it, and by level 15 have completed the circle of solaris for another +1. Thats an 18 STR at level 15. It can one day get to 22 (+1 at level 16 and 20, +2 from Huntsmastery, Tier V. Anyway, at level 15 your STR bonus is +4.

Greatsword: 2d6 + 12
2 from the sword, 2 from weaponskill, 2 from weaponsmatery, 6 from strength (1 and one half bonus for two handed use).

Chance to Hit: 11 + 1 (weaponskill) + 2 (Sword) + 4 (STR) - 2 (Strike as one penalty) = 16
Strike as One Damage: 6d6 + 36
Avg Damage: 52

Which also falls under massive damage.

Whats my combat plan? Well, since there is no cap on how much you can put into a psi-stun, you launch a DC 32 stun at a target, spend your next action getting nice and close, then Strike as One while they are stunned.

The thing about the diminishing returns on attacks is that, it makes those later attacks less likely to hit. But Strike as One negates that. It seems like its penalty to hit should maybe be a bit higher. A second attack is -5, and a third is -10, so maybe -4 if the character has two attacks, and -8 if they have three?

 

[SableWyvern]

My point was, while the topic may be worth discussing, your example really only allows one sensible answer. Obviously, a character such as the one in your example will not mesh well with anything resembling a well-balanced campaign. Making that point is indeed a worthwhile excercise, but the way you did it was effective enough that the results aren't really open really open to discussion.

If you are wondering how feats might be modified, or which should be included/excluded, or what other things might need to be done to incorporate them without breaking the system, then there is probably room for interpretation and varying mileage -- and hence, discussion.

No offense was intended with my original post, I'm just wondering where you wanted to go with this line of thought.

 

[Joseph_of_Orb]

Yeah, sable, you're right I didn't really talk about what I was thinking, which was:

- Has anyone else experienced over powered things like this in the Lone Wolf guide, at mid to later levels? I've only looked at the Kai Lord class.

- Do you think mongoose tested the game for the higher levels? There seems to be things like Strike as One that need tweaking. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of mongoose, their design, and approach. Characters in the lone wolf game really have "legs"...while it seems traditional classes simply get more of the same at higher levels, the mongoose classes evolve, and give more options and possibilites. I look forward to leveling much more with my Kai Lord than say, a ranger.

- Do the provided enemies in the core Lone Wolf book scale properly to these abilities? That is, is a CR 15 monster able to absorb/diminish the abilities effect?

I'm just sharing thoughts/experiences.

 

[SableWyvern]

I think that the Kai Lord is a little more powerful than most, if not all of, the other classes in the Lone Wolf rulebook. This is probably more visible at later levels, but I don't think it is dramatically so.

My only direct experience involves a group of diverse PCs interacting at levels 4, 6, 8 and 10, and everyone has had something to offer at the right times so far -- importantly, without requiring any special effort on behalf to let each character have his central moments.

I would assume that Mongoose has playtested at all levels, and that the CRs were scaled to the Lone Wolf power progression. Specifically, August has said that the CRs were arrived at by first using a straight formula, then playtesting, after which any modification necessary was made to reach a final result. This is why, frex, the Drakkarim in the Bestiary do not have CR = Class Level - 1, as is standard for d20.

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah, sable, you're right I didn't really talk about what I was thinking, which was:

- Has anyone else experienced over powered things like this in the Lone Wolf guide, at mid to later levels? I've only looked at the Kai Lord class.

- Do you think mongoose tested the game for the higher levels? There seems to be things like Strike as One that need tweaking. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of mongoose, their design, and approach. Characters in the lone wolf game really have "legs"...while it seems traditional classes simply get more of the same at higher levels, the mongoose classes evolve, and give more options and possibilites. I look forward to leveling much more with my Kai Lord than say, a ranger.

- Do the provided enemies in the core Lone Wolf book scale properly to these abilities? That is, is a CR 15 monster able to absorb/diminish the abilities effect?

I'm just sharing thoughts/experiences.

They most likely did, and did so without feats, as the class is intended to be played; thus they probably did not find it too overpowering. AGain, its your choice to include feats, but if you do, keep in mind the char is going to become very powerful.

 

[flummoxes]

Yeah, sable, you're right I didn't really talk about what I was thinking, which was:

- Has anyone else experienced over powered things like this in the Lone Wolf guide, at mid to later levels? I've only looked at the Kai Lord class.

- Do you think mongoose tested the game for the higher levels? There seems to be things like Strike as One that need tweaking. Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of mongoose, their design, and approach. Characters in the lone wolf game really have "legs"...while it seems traditional classes simply get more of the same at higher levels, the mongoose classes evolve, and give more options and possibilites. I look forward to leveling much more with my Kai Lord than say, a ranger.

- Do the provided enemies in the core Lone Wolf book scale properly to these abilities? That is, is a CR 15 monster able to absorb/diminish the abilities effect?

I'm just sharing thoughts/experiences.

They most likely did, and did so without feats, as the class is intended to be played; thus they probably did not find it too overpowering. AGain, its your choice to include feats, but if you do, keep in mind the char is going to become very powerful.

 

[The Wolf]

They most likely did, and did so without feats, as the class is intended to be played; thus they probably did not find it too overpowering. AGain, its your choice to include feats, but if you do, keep in mind the char is going to become very powerful.

It was always my understanding that the game was meant to be played without Feats, which is one of the reasons that I actually purchased it. I have become somewhat dis-enchanted with the ever-growing list of near-wargame style feats and skills for the modern RPG.

I want to see more books like Lone Wolf that go back almost to the basics and concentrate on making the game fun, rather than putting in endless side-rules and optionals that can be quibbled over.

I'd rather a combat be a little more lethal and take a minute or so to resolve, rather than last three hours because someone is determined to use every feat under the sun and optional rule.

It's role playing that interests me, rather than roll playing.

 

[Xex]

They most likely did, and did so without feats, as the class is intended to be played; thus they probably did not find it too overpowering. AGain, its your choice to include feats, but if you do, keep in mind the char is going to become very powerful.

It was always my understanding that the game was meant to be played without Feats, which is one of the reasons that I actually purchased it. I have become somewhat dis-enchanted with the ever-growing list of near-wargame style feats and skills for the modern RPG.

I want to see more books like Lone Wolf that go back almost to the basics and concentrate on making the game fun, rather than putting in endless side-rules and optionals that can be quibbled over.

I'd rather a combat be a little more lethal and take a minute or so to resolve, rather than last three hours because someone is determined to use every feat under the sun and optional rule.

It's role playing that interests me, rather than roll playing.

I would advise you to stay far, far away from the exalted rpg (v1 or v2) It is very normal for combats in that game to literally last 2-3 hours. Players also normally roll around 30+ dice EVERY combat round.

Anyhow, whats the reason for this terrible thread necromancy flummoxes?

 

[The Wolf]

Oh god, ... I remember those battles in that Xex!

 

[KaiLord]

Yes, the Kai are overpowered. That's kind of the point, I think. The sad thing is (as mentioned elsewhere) that there was never a book of monsters released officially so that they could fight more than a handful of beasts.

Don't forget to factor in Mindblast and Psychic Combat with you calculations to make it even more powerful.

Still, the Kai can always be scaled back by either the player or GM. Of course, if a Kai is always winning in his combats, he just hasn't faced the right adversary yet.

KL, who created the right adversary

 

[Andrew]

My opinion, is you don't mix Game systems. LW stays by itself, DO NOT bring in other Outside D20 books, and Vice Versa. I once brought a Level 5 Kai Lord into a DND game where everyone else was running level 8-9 characters. I got the Initative, and wiped out the nights Major Badguy in one Attack because of how powerful the Kai Lords Mindblast ability is when you get to use it in conjunction with your normal attacks. The others jaws dropped to the table and I said my goodnights and went home, having totally ruined the game for the others.