Still confused by capital ship combat

[ColHut]

Yep.

surely a 10 missile bay barrage is really 120-missile-"range"-1 ?

not 10-bay-"range"-12?

I can understand the mutiplication of weapons by damage (at the beginning or end it doesn't matter) but what is supposed to be going on here?

What's the value in having bigger rather than more guns?

How do you guys interpret this?

regards

 

[BP]

Hello ColHut! Yep, capital ship 'expanded space combat' is rather confusing - I think its mostly a matter of presentation (and maybe some mistakes in examples). I don't pretend to 'get it'. Fortunately, this one I got...

'Bigger guns' penetrate armour better - and this is represented by the last number in the notation for a barrage - the Individual Weapon Damage in Dice

Notably, this is incorrect in the example above - it should have been:
120-Missile Bay-Long-12.

So that represents 10 Missile (50-ton) Bays firing 12 missiles per attack at 1 dice damage each so 12 'Individual Weapon Damage in Dice' (the last numer). In this case the 'Individual Weapon' is actually 12 missiles of 1d6 damage each (sorta a barrage within a barrage - because that is what a standard 50-ton missile bay fires).

As opposed to say 120 single missile turrets of normal missiles doing 1 dice damage each:
120-Missile-Long-1.

[Reference HG pg 73 end of Barrages section and top paragraphs of next page]

This last number is rolled into the attack DM (the mechanic that represents 'bigger guns' are better at penetrating armour):
'Add up the protection offered by defences, and then subtract it from the individual weapon damage...' [HG pg 74 under Barrages & Defenses]

(The protection is a combination of Armour Rating, Sandcaster odds, Screens (2 pts/), Ship Hull Configuration, and Point Defense odds.)

So, in this example, although both barrages (if at 100% coverage) have the exact same 120 'Number of Dice' , the 50-ton bay missile barrage gets an Attack DM +12, whereas the single turrets only get an Attack DM +1.

So the chances of a successfull attack are significantly higher with the missile bay.

[HG pg 73 calls it Number of Dice since that is how many damage dice x weapons one would normally have to roll for that 'barrage']

Hope that helps clear that up at least!

 

[ColHut]

Notably, this is incorrect in the example above - it should have been:
120-Missile Bay-Long-12.

So that represents 10 Missile (50-ton) Bays firing 12 missiles per attack at 1 dice damage each so 12 'Individual Weapon Damage in Dice' (the last numer). In this case the 'Individual Weapon' is actually 12 missiles of 1d6 damage each (sorta a barrage within a barrage - because that is what a standard 50-ton missile bay fires).

As opposed to say 120 single missile turrets of normal missiles doing 1 dice damage each:
120-Missile-Long-1.

Ahh But why would it matter if 120 missile turrets fired their missiles 'together' as opposed to 10 bays each firing a salvo of 12? Why would the latter get a bonus?

And thanks very much too!

 

[SSWarlock]

Because bays are more effective in coordinating their fire than a mass of individual turrets.

All the missiles in a single bay salvo use the same Gunnery roll in their attack. Missiles from a mass of turrets must use the Gunnery roll from their individual launching turret. It's much easier (and more cost effective) to train a small bay gunnery crew than a huge group of turret gunners.

 

[BP]

As SSWarlock stated - coordinated fire. I would also add 'concentrated'. For beam weapons this seems real easy to grasp (10 beams focused on a point from one weapon vs. ten trying to focus on a moving target from a moving target from 10 seperated locations...)

In the case of missiles -

The penetrating effectiveness (Attack DM) of 12 missiles launched from a single weapon (the bay) is more likely to penetrate defenses (armour+sand+etc) than 12 independently launched missiles.

Think 12 missiles striking the same spot near instantly, verses 12 missiles each only striking in the near vicinity of one another over a longer period of time.

Remember also, that Traveller combat is not intended to be a simulation - only a dramatization (roleplaying). Some stretching of imagination is gonna be in order.

 

[apoc527]

It makes more sense with non-missile bay weapons, but yea, this is all correct.

I found the barrage rules to work pretty darn well actually...it would allow a GM to have a decent cap ship battle if that was appropriate for the campaign.

 

[smiths121]

Hi All,

I think I understand the combat system - the missile example on page 74 confused me, so I understand except for missiles.

Using the example of 10 50 ton bays at long range, with the different sort of missiles. My take - those in the know please correct is:

Normal Missiles
120-missile-long-1

Nuclear
120-missile-long-2 +radiation hit

Multiple Warhead
10-missile-long-12

Smart Missiles
120-missile-long-1
Note: I have no idea how to work out what the barrage for the missiles that missed so can try again would be![/i]

 

[BP]

smiths121 reread my original reply above - the last digit for bays - at least to my understanding - is x12 because the bays flight of 12 missiles is the 'Individual Weapon Dice Damage' - in other words take the individual missile damage and multiply it by the number of missiles in the weapon (same would hold true for other barbettes/bays)

Off hand won't speak to the smart missiles (that might be in my errata list)...

 

[smiths121]

As SSWarlock stated - coordinated fire. I would also add 'concentrated'. For beam weapons this seems real easy to grasp (10 beams focused on a point from one weapon vs. ten trying to focus on a moving target from a moving target from 10 seperated locations...)

In the case of missiles -

The penetrating effectiveness (Attack DM) of 12 missiles launched from a single weapon (the bay) is more likely to penetrate defenses (armour+sand+etc) than 12 independently launched missiles.

Think 12 missiles striking the same spot near instantly, verses 12 missiles each only striking in the near vicinity of one another over a longer period of time.

Remember also, that Traveller combat is not intended to be a simulation - only a dramatization (roleplaying). Some stretching of imagination is gonna be in order.

Not sure I buy this.

If I have 2 gunners controlling 12 turrets as allowed when I consider my crew page 67, then that is a single person co-ordinating the fire of 12 missiles, how does this differ from a 50 ton bay?

From a design point of view, in the example we were using 10 50 ton bays which uses 510 tons, 5 hardpoints and "10" of my limited bays @ cost of 120MCr, verses doing it by turrets which would require 40 hardpoints (triple turrets) for 40 tons and 130 MCr. If you want the flexibility from the turrets its 2 tons and .25MCr per additional gunner to reduce the barrage size for multiple targets.

 

[smiths121]

smiths121 reread my original reply above - the last digit for bays - at least to my understanding - is x12 because the bays flight of 12 missiles is the 'Individual Weapon Dice Damage' - in other words take the individual missile damage and multiply it by the number of missiles in the weapon (same would hold true for other barbettes/bays)

Off hand won't speak to the smart missiles (that might be in my errata list)...

I did read it :shock:
I did not understand it

My take on barrage is you count each dice as "1".

I cannot see how you get to 120-missile-long-12. Why 120? As only 10 bays are firing you are saying each bay does 12d6 - fair enough, but there is only 10 of them. I would agree 10-missile-long-12 but that is pretty much the same under a barrage as 120-missile-long-1. You appear to be counting the individual weapon in both columns. Why?

The example of page 74 makes sense to me 10-missile-long-12 as the 10 bays are firing multiple warhead missiles, and each missile does 1d6. So that is 12 in the last column.

To help me understand how you got to your result could you use the 10 50 tons bays for normal missiles (we'll ignore smart missiles), and nuclear missiles.

Thanks for your patience.

 

[AndrewW]

From a design point of view, in the example we were using 10 50 ton bays which uses 510 tons, 5 hardpoints and "10" of my limited bays @ cost of 120MCr, verses doing it by turrets which would require 40 hardpoints (triple turrets) for 40 tons and 130 MCr. If you want the flexibility from the turrets its 2 tons and .25MCr per additional gunner to reduce the barrage size for multiple targets.

That would be 10 hardpoints for the bay, 1 bay takes 1 hardpoint.

 

[smiths121]

From a design point of view, in the example we were using 10 50 ton bays which uses 510 tons, 5 hardpoints and "10" of my limited bays @ cost of 120MCr, verses doing it by turrets which would require 40 hardpoints (triple turrets) for 40 tons and 130 MCr. If you want the flexibility from the turrets its 2 tons and .25MCr per additional gunner to reduce the barrage size for multiple targets.

That would be 10 hardpoints for the bay, 1 bay takes 1 hardpoint.

Thanks AndrewW for your correction - managed to times 10 by 51 Ok, failed after the next comma

 

[BP]

...You appear to be counting the individual weapon in both columns. Why?

Exactly! - as to why -

'Bigger guns' penetrate armour better - and this is represented by the last number in the notation for a barrage - the Individual Weapon Damage in Dice

It is represented twice. Once for calculating damage (the 'size of the barrage' in number of dice) and once for penetrating defenses (the Attack DMs)!

The first number is basically How Much, the last is basically How Effective.

Think of the first number as basically just a precalculation. (Hence the last is reused).

An individual weapon can be a single missile/etc or a bay of multiple missiles/etc. Thus 50-ton missile bays have an Individual Weapon Damage in Dice of 12 times the damage per missile (1d6 for normal, 2d6 for Nuclear...)

Thus a bay firing 12 missiles in a simultaneous single coordinated attack, is 12 times more effective than a single turret firing a single missile at penetrating defenses. The total number of missiles in a barrage may be the same (10 bays or 120 turrets) - this is the first number - it is used for damage determination.

Of course, smart missiles, long range (with their 1d6 -1 damage IIRC) and multi-warheads (1d6x1d6 damage) - well, don't ask me :roll:

P.S. - not understanding me is probably a healthy thing - sign of sanity!

 

[AndrewW]

Thus a bay firing 12 missiles in a simultaneous single coordinated attack, is 12 times more effective than a single turret firing a single missile at penetrating defenses. The total number of missiles in a barrage may be the same (10 bays or 120 turrets) - this is the first number - it is used for damage determination.

Or you could do it with 40 triple turrets.

 

[ColHut]

so it still should be
120-Missile Bay-Long-12. (in this example). as the total number of (ordinary) damage dice is still 120. but the synchronicity of the attack we will consider +12.

I wonder though each salvo of 12 missiles would be that much easier to destroy, and would likely miss/hit as a group. Just a thought.

 

[apoc527]

There could easily be debate about how effective missiles are whether they are fired as a group or fired one by one. Setting that aside for a moment, I just want to make sure that BP's point is getting across about the armor and individual weapon damage.

Let's say that all positive, non-damage related attack DMs are +5 (as in the High Guard example). Let's say that there are two enemy ships and that one has Defenses of 6 (because of only 2 armor) and the other has defenses of 10 (more armor).

Ok, so 120 individual missile turrets (single, or it could be 40 triple...doesn't matter) with an individual weapon damage of 1 fire at both ships. If the attacker rolls average (7) then here are the results:

Ship 1: 7+5+1 (Individual Weapon Damage) - 6 = 5 --> 50% damage --> 60 damage.

Ship 2: 7+5+1 - 10 = 3 --> 10% damage --> 12 damage.

Now, let's do the same number of missiles using 10 missile bays. Individual weapon damage is now 12, instead of one.

Ship 1: 7+5+12 (IWD) - 6 = 18 --> 500% damage --> 600 damage.

Ship 2: 7+5+12 - 10 = 14 --> 275% damage --> 330 damage

Big difference, right?

NOW, here's the BIG question (which I said I was ignoring):

What IS the "individual weapon damage" of a Missile Bay? The table on page 51 of HG says that a 50 ton and 100 ton missile bay fire 12 and 24 missiles respectively. If we actually assume that the above example is correct (I'm not convinced it's right), then missiles become Weapons of the Gods. A 100 ton missile bay would be over twice as powerful as a 100 ton particle beam bay.

Somehow I don't think that's right. So the question becomes, why would you ever want a missile bay instead of just more triple missile turrets? (The answer for particle beam turrets vs. bays is clear because I'm 100% confident that if you replace the above example with particle beams, it works out.)

A 50 ton missile bay takes up 1 hardpoint and 51 dtons (reduced at higher TLs unless you give it bonus abilities). It fires 12 missiles at a time.

You'd need 4 triple turrets to do the same thing. This would take up 4 hardpoints and use 4 dtons.

On smaller ships, hardpoints are actually going to be a limiting factor, so right away there IS a benefit to using missile bays. I'm just not sure how much of one...

 

[smiths121]

There could easily be debate about how effective missiles are whether they are fired as a group or fired one by one. Setting that aside for a moment, I just want to make sure that BP's point is getting across about the armor and individual weapon damage.

I am struggling with this - I have both editions of high guard and cannot see where the individal weapon damage is added as a modifier, not on page 74 of either version of the book! It says 2d6 + range mod + fire control + dodging + skill + ship defences. When did we starting 12 for a 50 ton missile bay. Have I missed some errata?

Personally I do not see High Guard making a distinction between 120 missiles from bays or turrets its just 120 of the same weapon. Could have come from bays, 120 single turrets, 40 triple turrets or any combination that comes up with 120.

The other thing to remember is the damage calculated by a barrage is multipled by 3 to give damage in core rulebook terms (high guard page 75). So your example of 600 damage is actually 1800 damage which is more than 120 missiles can actually do, cannot be right.

Having said all that I am struggling to work out what the barrage attack for the missile bays actually is. energy weapons are (relatively) simple. The example of page 74 is 10-missile-long-12, the the example clearly state these are multiple warhead missiles which do 1d6 damage each, so I think its a bit on the low side.

so my take 10 x 50 ton bays firing missiles is:

normal missiles 120-missile-long-1
smart missiles 120-missile-long-1
long range 120-missile-long-1
nuclear 120-missile-2 + radiation
multiple warhead 120-missile-1d6

 

[apoc527]

I think you are probably right. Which begs the question: why use missiles? They can be shot down, led astray by jamming, and outrun. And their range isn't that much better!

 

[smiths121]

I think you are probably right. Which begs the question: why use missiles? They can be shot down, led astray by jamming, and outrun. And their range isn't that much better!

They are cheap and low tech is the obvious answer. I do not think they have any place as a primary weapon in core rulebook or high guard after tech level 10 - but at that point you can make them resilient High Yield.

Crystaliron armour, with its reduced hull reqirements, effectively retires them. Using Titatanim Steel its 15% of your tons to ignore normal missiles, and 30% to ignore nclear missiles (needs TL12).

One of the things I like about Traveller is it covers low tech to high tech, missiles have their place in TL 7-10 navies. They become a cheap weapon to put on system defence boats and other ships that will police civilians even at higher tech levels.

 

[apoc527]

One could easily create higher TL missiles, if one was so inclined. Antimatter warheads at TL17, space-bending gravitic warheads at TL20+, disintegrator warheads mounted on tachyon missiles...

But yes, as far as the OTU is concerned, missiles aren't as exciting once you get above TL10 in the purely military sense. Now, torpedoes...they are still useful, but probably too large and easy to shoot down to be really effective.

In fact, maybe this is GURPS Traveller canon, but didn't the First Imperium get owned by the Terrans because the Terrans focused on meson weaponry and the Vilani still used missiles?