Stellar Reaches?

[EDG]

Damm dude... can't you just let the rest of us have some hope this will end up in a positive way, or do you just always have to cram stuff down other people's throats.

Hey, if you want to live in denial then go right ahead. It doesn't change the fact that what I quoted is right there in black and white in the current version of the TLL license.

And if by "positive way" you mean "Mongoose will let everyone carry on publishing their own material for free using the OTU setting that they've actually paid to have exclusive rights to" then it's likely that you'll be disappointed. I'm not saying it's impossible that they'll figure out a way to do it, but the fact is that they have no obligation to do so given that they're the ones who actually negotiated and paid for a license for it, and not you (or me, or anyone else).

If however, by "positive way" you mean "Mongoose will let everyone publish their own original SF settings using the Traveller rules" then you might have more reason to be hopeful.

What's interesting though is how this affects anything based off CT. Previously the Fair Use clause allowed people to post material based on the OTU, and CT is still available - so does that still stand? Or does Mongoose now have exclusive rights to use the OTU across the board, and that supersedes the existing Fair Use clause? Can someone say "well I'm not publishing my Charted Space material under the TLL or OGL, I'm doing it under the Fair Use Clause that Marc Miller grants?". Seems like there's a bit of a contradiction there.

 

[Infojunky]

The question still remains, if I am running a game based off of some flavor of the "OTU" and i post to the web information relevant to my players, are the OGL nazi's gonna come along and tell my how bad I am for having the temerity to to actually use the product to "PLAY" the game in the setting.

I'm asking from the gamers point of view, I mostly ignored the whole SRD/OGL question in the 3rd edition DnD era.

 

[rust]

The question still remains, if I am running a game based off of some flavor of the "OTU" and i post to the web information relevant to my players, are the OGL nazi's gonna come along...

I can hardly imagine Mongoose sending any men in black from Britain
across the Atlantic to North California to have them slap your wrist be-
cause of a post on a website. :lol:

Let us stay realistic, the problem - if there really is a problem, we still
do not know for sure - would be published material, and especially com-
mercial or semi-commercial published material, using the OTU.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

The question still remains, if I am running a game based off of some flavor of the "OTU" and i post to the web information relevant to my players, are the OGL nazi's gonna come along...

I can hardly imagine Mongoose sending any men in black from Britain
across the Atlantic to North California to have them slap your wrist be-
cause of a post on a website. :lol:

Let us stay realistic, the problem - if there really is a problem, we still
do not know for sure - would be published material, and especially com-
mercial or semi-commercial published material, using the OTU.

But Stellar Reaches is non-commercial, ie: free. If SR is affected by this, (tho I hope/expect this to be resolved in a way which makes everyone happy - at least that's the impression Mongoose seem to have given in the past ), then so will many PBPs - because that counts as publishing if it's on a public board. I guess if they migrate to this board then that'd probably be ok, but it would not be a desirable outcome, all told.

btw, on a semi-related note, Conan, the character and the original REH stories, are now out of copyright in the UK...

 

[EDG]

Not to mention programs like Galactic, Universe, and Heaven and Earth that contain sector data for the OTU. I'm sure the programs would still be allowed if they were presented as just generic worldgen/mapping tools, but would the OTU data have to be removed from those?

 

[AKAramis]

btw, on a semi-related note, Conan, the character and the original REH stories, are now out of copyright in the UK...

the american copyright date is 1932 or later... so still another 15 years or so in the US... and IIRC, isn't there a reciprocity treaty for US & UK copyrights? (Berne Treaty?)

 

[Klaus Kipling]

btw, on a semi-related note, Conan, the character and the original REH stories, are now out of copyright in the UK...

the american copyright date is 1932 or later... so still another 15 years or so in the US... and IIRC, isn't there a reciprocity treaty for US & UK copyrights? (Berne Treaty?)

That just makes the host's copyright laws apply to something originating from overseas (rather than having no protection in other countries).

In the UK it is the author's death +70 years. The Berne treaty stipulates that the maximum duration is the one of the host country. Therefore, works by H G Wells (d 1946) run out of copyright in 2016 in both the UK and US.

It would be a sweet irony if, in the worst case scenario despite all efforts actually does occur, we were to be prevented from doing free fan stuff for the OTU, yet under the OGL be able to produce a Traveller-engined Conan rpg perfectly legitimately (not that I think they are the best match of rules and setting! ).

 

[AKAramis]

It would be a sweet irony if, in the worst case scenario despite all efforts actually does occur, we were to be prevented from doing free fan stuff for the OTU, yet under the OGL be able to produce a Traveller-engined Conan rpg perfectly legitimately (not that I think they are the best match of rules and setting! ).

That gets into Trademark. US Trademarks don't expire; they are lost only by being declared so in court for not having defended them against other use or by withdrawal of the trademark by the owner. At present, Conan is still under trademark protection. Aggressively so, as I recall.

From what I've read, neither do UK trademarks expire.

 

[Commander Drax]

None of this actually answers the bigger questions, if I can't actually write and submit adventures set in the OTU or using any details of the OTU, where does this end, my own website (www.the-children-of-earth.org) contains lots of goodies submitted by lots of casual authors free of charge for the benefit of the community. No one's got paid, payment was never offered, just a chance to share your stuff with the wider world. So must I now shut down my website that Marc W Miller gave me permission to set up a few years ago. Like I say, I don't wish to add anything to the body of canon out there, just use elements of those things already published to add flavour to adventures etc. Generic works don't do it for me. Could one possible way around it be (this adventure is set on X world, full details of which can be found in Y publication). Characters have use of X starship full stats can be found in Y supplement. What about using known names, I submitted an adventure to Stellar Reaches called Hebrin Nights (Hebrin was a world published in the Empty Quarter data that has been published in Traveller sources including Stellar Reaches a number of times and as such is part of the OTU), A great deal of action centres on and revolves around activities on Hebrin. It seems silly to replace every instance of the word 'Hebrin' with "a suitable high population mid tech world of your choice".

Adventures revolve around places and people and the wider political situation of the region if they are to have any meaning and not be boring.

Try writing adventures set in 1105 The spinward Marches fifth frontier war without any mention of the Spinward Marches, the Fifth Frontier War, The Zhodani, The Sword Worlds or the Outworld Coalition. I accept that some of these changes are generic enough not to be challenged as product identity and thus OTU derived , but most definately are. Drop that background and those terms replacing with 'humanoid aliens that resemble wolves/dogs' and psionic humans in the setting of your choice and see how quickly you loose the flavour of your creation.

It's not just adventures, create a new ship design that might support the OTU or a generic setting, who uses it, what's it's design criteria, is it any good.

Compare this to the poorly regarded Kinnunir class frontier cruiser and suddenly you've got atmosphere.

Point Made I think.

 

[GamerDude]

Damm dude... can't you just let the rest of us have some hope this will end up in a positive way, or do you just always have to cram stuff down other people's throats.

Hey, if you want to live in denial then go right ahead. It doesn't change the fact that what I quoted is right there in black and white in the current version of the TLL license.

{imagines you pounding on the desk as you keep pushing the ultra-negative viewpoint}}

All I'm saying, without using several hundred words to do it, is that while I do understand the CURRENT wording of the LOGO license etc, I have faith in Matt and Marc to come up with a solution that will make a majority of people happy. Period. If it doesn't happen then so be it, but I do have hope...

 

[EDG]

All I'm saying, without using several hundred words to do it, is that while I do understand the CURRENT wording of the LOGO license etc, I have faith in Matt and Marc to come up with a solution that will make a majority of people happy. Period. If it doesn't happen then so be it, but I do have hope...

I'm not saying you shouldn't, I'm just saying what's known about it so far. Flynn is, incidentally, saying exactly the same thing I am, and yet I don't see you berating him for his "ultra-negative viewpoint".

But apparently at least one site has already been told to remove OTU references (although admittedly it was largely an art site). While you may want to keep "hoping", that's not exactly encouraging, is it?

I hope Matt and co. do come to an arrangement that keeps the fans happy, but it may be out of their hands. If the OGL requires that the OTU should be closed to all, then that's that.

 

[Chronus]

But apparently at least one site has already been told to remove OTU references (although admittedly it was largely an art site).

Boy, I must be sleeping while reading. What site was told to remove OTU references?

Also, everyone keeps talking as if this is still an issue. Did Chris' email to Flynn pertain only to Stellar Reaches (back on the 1st page of this thread)? I thought it was basically the new rule of thumb and that free material could be derived from the OTU and published. :?:

 

[EDG]

But apparently at least one site has already been told to remove OTU references (although admittedly it was largely an art site).

Boy, I must be sleeping while reading. What site was told to remove OTU references?

http://www.cambrianmoons.com apparently. That said, that site would work equally well without the OTU references (which seem very tangential to the actual story, tbh), and apparently the author was going to 'sanitise' it eventually anyway. It's a bloody good site too, the story's great (as is the art).

Also, everyone keeps talking as if this is still an issue. Did Chris' email to Flynn pertain only to Stellar Reaches (back on the 1st page of this thread)? I thought it was basically the new rule of thumb and that free material could be derived from the OTU and published. :?:

If you check the date, that was when this all originally came up in January . It looked like everything was OK after that, but suddenly things are up in the air again now that the SRD is actually out. I'm not sure why things have changed, but I guess it'll get sorted out in the next few days (course, it's the weekend now, so I wouldn't expect official clarifications til Monday at least...).

 

[tneva82]

(Hebrin was a world published in the Empty Quarter data that has been published in Traveller sources including Stellar Reaches a number of times and as such is part of the OTU),

Maybe this is what they try to avoid? Idea that if it's been published in stellar reaches(fanzine) it's part of OTU. OTU material from one source and all that.

 

[Commander Drax]

Your missing the point, The Empty Quarter Data is part of the Official Traveller Universe, I just wrote an adventure set there and was lucky enugh to have it published in Stellar Reaches. Is this now against the rules? If so how do we avoid this in the future. That is the point. At no point have I tried to hijact the OTU and use it for to publish my own empire of rival supplements to mongoose and make money, it's just fan derived stuff, which I found enjoyable to write. Am I no longer allowed to do this. Is stellar reaches allowed to publish this stuff. Once again that is the point.

Also the OTU has been around since possibly 1977, I don't recall anyone trying to claim ownership of it other than Marc Miller when GDW went belly up. So what's the issue.

 

[Commander Drax]

Right, I might have some answers, Mongoose has just published a fair use policy on these boards

 

[Flynn]

Also the OTU has been around since possibly 1977, I don't recall anyone trying to claim ownership of it other than Marc Miller when GDW went belly up. So what's the issue.

If I had to guess, it might be because of posts where people have asked if they can publish adventures set in the OTU as a 3PP product, and questions about what constitutes an ATU for commercial publication. A few of these questions may have caused warning alarms to go off in the heads of those that own or have official licenses for the intellectual property that is the Official Traveller Universe. That reaction probably led to a re-examination of the fan policy previously announced in January.

Of course, this is only an opinion, based on conjecture, and has no solid basis in anything I've read from Mongoose, public or private. For all I know, Mongoose's legal department could have read all the flak about WOTC's GSL for 4E, and thought, 'You know, maybe we need to protect ourselves better." The only ones that really know are Mongoose staff, and truth be told, they are the only ones that really need to know.

Whatever the reason, I appreciate that Mongoose has handled this matter swiftly, appropriately and with good customer service. They set a good example for other licensers in their behavior on this issue, and are a bright and shining beacon for customer service, especially when compared to how WOTC has handled the whole GSL affair.

With Regards,
Flynn

 

[Chronus]

If you check the date, that was when this all originally came up in January

DOH! :shock:

Thanks for the heads up. I don't recall ever seeing this thread before and I visit this site quite frequently so I just assumed it was new.

At no point have I tried to hijact the OTU and use it for to publish my own empire of rival supplements to mongoose and make money, it's just fan derived stuff, which I found enjoyable to write.

The irony in your statement is interesting.

A common staple in most RPG games is the ability to create your own scenarios/adventures. Indeed, I'm inclined to say that this is of utmost importance. However, with the advent of the internet, and the ease for the common person to create some good stuff with today's software (I find the articles in SR really good) is the RPG industry worried about having to compete with its own fan base? MGT has a ten year commitment to Traveller. Is much of this in the form of adventures and scenarios? Would there, technically, be something illegal about me creating a hardcopy of my own adventures (with OTU references) and giving them to my friends, or does all this pertain only to the internet?

Man, I think I'd hate to be in the publishing industry now days. I saw a recent clip on TV about how even some big newspapers (Chicago Tribune, for example) are having to cut staff because of the increase of internet usage for news.

EDIT: Well, call me extremely slow. I just saw the latest news and will be reading it with interest. Upon initial glance, it appears that some folks still feel they need to remove content from the "free" website. Why? Are their sites truly not free? I obviously need to investigate this some more.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Would there, technically, be something illegal about me creating a hardcopy of my own adventures (with OTU references) and giving them to my friends, or does all this pertain only to the internet?

As far as we are concerned, no, knock yourself out!

The issue comes if someone were to do this, and then offer it for sale. Frankly, we would consider that rude, considering all the effort we have gone to allowing people to potentially make money from Traveller anyway

 

[Thunderbolt]

But apparently at least one site has already been told to remove OTU references (although admittedly it was largely an art site). While you may want to keep "hoping", that's not exactly encouraging, is it?

Just to clarify, I have not been 'told' to remove references to the OTU from Cambrian Moons, but I feel the wording and present flux surrounding the OGL and SRD have 'pushed' me to do so.

Seeing the various 'what if' scenarios being discussed and degree of uncertainty makes me think a clean break is the best approach. The OTU was only one of many influences, and certainly not essential.

Thank you Flynn, for assembling the lists of words, very useful for purging the web site.