Stellar Reaches?

[Chronus]

It's a somewhat disturbing development (not least because it may have implications for fan sites too), but can I just ask that people don't jump to conclusions and start throwing accusations and shrieking about how it's the end of all things Traveller until we actually know what's going on...?

Although I'm not sure I can say that people are shrieking on this site (I haven't visited the other ones yet), I think I'm feeling the same concern you are, EDG.

Yes, folks, we love our Traveller and we want to see it thrive. And, yes, we spend plenty of money and consume much time in this endeavor we enjoy.

With that said, we need to keep things in perspective. For most of us, it is a hobby. Again, a hobby we love fanatically, but a hobby. For Mongoose, it's a bit more. This is how they feed, clothe and shelter their families. Yeah, you can say that if they want to feed their families then they should cater to the fans ASAP. Fine. For me, I don't see anything unreasonable in them taking some time out to protect their legal interests by looking at long-term ramifications. I do applaud their decision (I've recently been downloading Stellar Reaches myself) and believe that they should be treated with some patience and dignity when it comes to these kinds of issues (again, I don't see anything too disrespectful happening here but can only speculate the uproars that may be occurring on other sites).

I guess I now need to go read the license because my next question is ... if I were to take the OTU, modify it (for example, by simply adding a race I created), then have it published on Stellar Reaches, wouldn't that just simply be considered an ATU?

 

[GamerDude]

Actually, Reading Matt's post carefully I don't think there is a big problem, just one that has to be addressed carefully...

Publishing an article on scouts... that's not a problem.
Publishing an article on any ATU... that's not a problem

Publishing an article on anything involving the OTU, that's the problem. As Matt said "The agreement we have with Marc, indeed one of the fundamental points of the new Traveller, is that OTU material only comes from one source". It makes sense that Marc & Mongoose are trying to keep from having problems that multiple sources creating OTU would create. I mean, look at the discussion over being able to jump into an 'empty hex'. References from extremely old board games, References from other companies producing Traveller books under licenses, etc.

As Matt also said "There are possible ways round this, but we need to work through them so that everyone is happy" which to me means that this isn't a case of "the new big dog in town crushing fan creativity" but "lets do what we can to make this the best for everyone".

 

[atpollard]

I guess I now need to go read the license because my next question is ... if I were to take the OTU, modify it (for example, by simply adding a race I created), then have it published on Stellar Reaches, wouldn't that just simply be considered an ATU?

Your ATU published in Stellar Reaches would still be resreicted to using the data in the SRD (or other OGL source), would it not? That would stop you from copying Spinward Marches (with a new race added) and calling it an ATU available to all under the OGL.

Just my semi-uninformed speculation.

 

[Infojunky]

OK, just for giggles, what exactly is the OTU?

I ask this in that over the years I have run games all over the map of known space as presented in the Traveller's Atlas. I have used both published material and my own creation as necessary. The biggest thing I have lifted from published sources is over-arching history and background. i.e. the Imperium, and other related nation-states. But once the game starts that material is static, all development is generally mine as it relates to my players. Am I playing in OTU or ATU? Classically we devised the term IMTU (in My Traveller Universe) to denote that while we might be using common background material but play and development conforms to standards of the group and not "official" material.

In my mind ATU equates IMTU. While OTU is what ever comes out from a canonical source.

Tell me where I'm wrong.

 

[EDG]

Although I'm not sure I can say that people are shrieking on this site (I haven't visited the other ones yet), I think I'm feeling the same concern you are, EDG.

Oh, nobody's shrieking here yet... just that in the past people have (elsewhere, usually) been known to jump to conclusions (or worse, make assumptions and declare them to be truth) before all the facts are out. I just wanted to explicitly say "let's make sure we don't do that here, ok?" .

Publishing an article on scouts... that's not a problem.
Publishing an article on any ATU... that's not a problem

Actually my understanding is that it is a problem. Because the Scouts (clarification: i.e. the IISS) are an organisation from the OTU, which is off limits. You can write an article on "the explorer corps" for a general SF setting though... but you can't call them the Scouts, you can't say they use Type S Scout/Couriers (because again, that's part of the OTU), and so on.

Ditto for publishing any ATU that is set in something derived from the OTU. It can't have Vilani, or Hivers, or Vargr, or anything else that is from the Charted Space setting that we call the OTU.

You can publish a whole new setting using the MGT Traveller rules though... just not link it to Charted Space at all.

At least that's my understanding of it. However, I also understood that the above was definitely off-limits if you were planning on selling that material, but not if it was for non-profit or personal use (e.g. on fan sites). But maybe that's changed now. Either way I'm sure Matt will correct me if that's wrong.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Well, if you have Solomani, Vilani, Aslan, Vargr or any of the other races; if you have the Third Imperium etc. Then you just might be in the OTU.

Even if you change it to suit your game (which we all do I think), it is still the OTU. You can obviously add to it (develop sectors that have no data on them but are on the map) but they still come from the OTU.

I can certainly see Mongooses point though.

Take the various Traveller maps that are out there. SEVERAL maps exist of certain sectors. All claim to be part of Charted Space. Therefore all claim to be OTU, but none of them have the blessing of MWM so are not Canon.

Mongoose wants to deal with that type of issue.

Based on what we have seen from Mongoose and Matt in the past few months, I agree with some of the posters above. Give it time. Matt hasn't screwed us yet. He needs to work it out with the lawyers.

I suspect we will end up with some kind of disclaimer that will have to be added to all FREE stuff that is obviously derived from OTU stuff stating clearly that it is non-Canon and UNOFFICIAL.

Official stuff can only be published by Mongoose or their licencees.

We wait.

 

[AKAramis]

The terms Scout Service and Scouts are not unique to traveller; Space Opera used it, as does WEG-SW-d6.

Even Imperial Scout Service is not "Unique" to the OTU. It was used in some bit of SF I read back in the 80's.

(And Scouts appears in the SRD, in full generation... and all the MGT career names are referenced in the SRD. Just not the CGen pages.)

 

[EDG]

The terms Scout Service and Scouts are not unique to traveller; Space Opera used it, as does WEG-SW-d6.

Even Imperial Scout Service is not "Unique" to the OTU. It was used in some bit of SF I read back in the 80's.

Which is why I corrected it to IISS in my post.

The point being, if you want to use the organisation as described in the OTU as "the Scouts" or "the IISS", then my understanding is that won't be able to because it's closed content since it's part of the OTU.

(And Scouts appears in the SRD, in full generation... and all the MGT career names are referenced in the SRD. Just not the CGen pages.

Again, by "Scouts" there they probably just mean "generic explorer career" for anything that isn't OTU. Like the Navy types aren't "Third Imperium Navy" but are rather "generic Naval personnel" for non-OTU purposes.

 

[Golan2072]

Based on what we have seen from Mongoose and Matt in the past few months, I agree with some of the posters above. Give it time. Matt hasn't screwed us yet. He needs to work it out with the lawyers.

I second that; Matt's a very decent and reasonable fellow. However, he's a decent and reasonable fellow stuck between a rock and a hard place due to a legal mess that isn't his fault, or Mongoose's fault, but the pains of the transition from the old "fair use license" to the OGL. I only hope that the whoever is giving him legal advice is competent enough to clear the mess to everyone's satisfaction.

 

[Infojunky]

but the pains of the transition from the old "fair use license" to the OGL.

Now that an interesting turn of phrase that means nothing.

Fair use is still fair use no matter what.

The OGL is an open license for use of copyright material.

While both cover the same material they are two different creatures.

 

[GamerDude]

At least that's my understanding of it.

Yep... that's exactly what it is.

The terms Scout Service and Scouts are not unique to traveller; Space Opera used it, as does WEG-SW-d6.

Even Imperial Scout Service is not "Unique" to the OTU. It was used in some bit of SF I read back in the 80's.

(And Scouts appears in the SRD, in full generation... and all the MGT career names are referenced in the SRD. Just not the CGen pages.)

I suspect we will end up with some kind of disclaimer that will have to be added to all FREE stuff that is obviously derived from OTU stuff stating clearly that it is non-Canon and UNOFFICIAL.

Official stuff can only be published by Mongoose or their licencees.

You two speak with common sense. I'm thinking the solution maybe be as simple as putting a statement saying "this is NOT OTU material. This is ATU material under the OGL"

 

[EDG]

At least that's my understanding of it.

Yep... that's exactly what it is.

15. The use of the term Original Traveller Universe or any material directly connected to the Original Traveller Universe setting is expressly prohibited by this agreement.

That's a pretty damn clear definition of where things are currently defined, at least for anything that you want to put a Traveller logo on. And certainly, searching through the SRD reveals that none of the alien races in the OTU have been declared as Open Content, neither have any of the ship types (marava, far trader, type s, scout/courier... none are in there).

Scouts are listed in the SRD as a sample career only, but even then it's pretty much only mentioned there.

So it looks to me like Mongoose did their best to excise any mention of the OTU setting from the SRD, and just keep the rules as generic as possible.

 

[GypsyComet]

In my mind ATU equates IMTU. While OTU is what ever comes out from a canonical source.

I draw a slightly different set of correspondences, but I'm otherwise on the same page.

OTU and ATU are mutually exclusive, in that they are setting definitions. The Third Imperium timeline (OTU) or something else (ATU).

MTU encompasses both, and is embodied by the editorial bits in the brand new Spinward Marches book: Change, add, or subtract from printed sources, whatever, it's *yours*. This is the territory the web resources need to occupy, regardless of the base setting.

A solution to the web is to lock down the Third Imperium material under *copyright*, but loosen the use of "trademarks" (not all of which actually are, or can be). That way I can't reprint the Regina Library Data that's in official print, but I can hang the name "Regina" on my own additional Library Data and associate it (with a clear MTU disclaimer) with the official material by that reference.

If M&M want me to hang an "MTU" logo (or equivalent) on every page of this sort, I can do that. If they want me to sanitize my site of all OTU references, I take down the site permanently and the online Traveller community gets smaller. It's that simple.

(Yes, I'm aware of the "resolution" to this on page 1. I felt the rant necessary anyway. Put that "resolution" statement somewhere visible other than a Board post that will be on page 45 by Christmas, and I'll consider the matter truly resolved.)

 

[Flynn]

Gentlemen:

Bear in mind that the concept of the Third Imperium and all specific details related to it are considered the OTU. Proper names and specific story elements, particularly related in the conceptual context known as Charted Space, are considered Product Identity, which is copyrighted by Marc W. Miller and licensed to Mongoose. Trying to build anything on that conceptual context is considered a violation of copyright. Trying to run an end-round around copyright is disrespectful at best, and illegal at worst.

An ATU that is appropriate to the OGL does not share any of the proper names or specific story elements related to the conceptual context of Charted Space and the Third/Fourth Imperium. In regards to proper names that are in the public domain, such as the names of mythological gods, Real World stars, etc., you can use those in your ATU, so long as your use does not resemble the same context as that of Charted Space.

This, of course, is only my opinion, but it's based on a careful study of Product Identity involved in prepping products for the OGL, both for Traveller and for D20. IANAL, so if you have any questions, I strongly recommend you speak with one before you move ahead with any commercial enterprise, for your own safety.

Remember this rule: if you have any uncertainty at all, or if you feel like you have to ask for a ruling from another party, then you are likely going to be in violation of the OGL. Play it safe and consider another approach.

Hope This Helps,
Flynn

 

[GypsyComet]

So it looks to me like Mongoose did their best to excise any mention of the OTU setting from the SRD, and just keep the rules as generic as possible.

That's what SRDs are for.

It isn't the Closed status of the setting material that is a huge concern. All that means is that full copyright protection is retained for the setting.

The concern, as noted by Flynn at the beginning of this topic, is that the Fair Use Statement has vanished. If "free stuff is cool", then some form of the Fair Use Statement needs to return.

That my web material is not "official" is not a concern, as I've never pretended that it was official. That I am being told (by the absence of the FUS) that I can no longer play in the OTU sandbox *at all* is, to much of the Traveller community, a clear message to take down websites and go away.

 

[EDG]

That my web material is not "official" is not a concern, as I've never pretended that it was official. That I am being told (by the absence of the FUS) that I can no longer play in the OTU sandbox *at all* is, to much of the Traveller community, a clear message to take down websites and go away.

Well don't get me wrong, I think the ideal situation would be to have an "ATU clause" in there somewhere that allows people to continue to publish material for non-profit purposes that is set within the Charted Space setting. Call that 'Fair Use' or whatever you will, but the alternative as you say is to force people to either sanitise their material or to take it down, which isn't so good. Some sites can be sanitised, but things like travellermap.com would be screwed.

But that said... I think we're overlooking something here with Traveller - namely that its original purpose was to allow people to create their own SF universe. But what actually happened was that a lot of people decided to just stick with the Charted Space setting and they did their own alternatives based on that setting.

This wasn't really an issue with D&D when WotC released the rules as OGL and locked down their Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms and other settings, because for the most part people had created their own settings using D&D rules in the past - it's just that now they could legitimately use the rules and add more and publish that self-created setting. It's not like people were up in arms at not being allowed to publish their own alternate Forgotten Realms where the Avatar Wars never happened or whatever, because most people hadn't done that in the first place.

But that didn't happen with Traveller. Instead, the majority of people cheerfully took the existing Charted Space setting and based their alternatives on that (via the Fair Use rules or whatever). But when Mongoose does the same thing as WotC and releases the rules as OGL and locks down the Charted Space setting (which is pretty much the only way it can work), suddenly the Traveller Community finds itself boned because it was almost entirely reliant on the free lunch that was the Charted Space setting being available.

I don't know how this will turn out, but if it turns out that Mongoose does have to lock down the Charted Space setting then we can react in one of two ways - either we curse Mongoose and burn up everything in a flame war that makes the TNE fuss look like a storm in a teacup and get nowhere, or we can do something useful and say "OK, it's sad that the Charted Space setting is off limits now, but you know what? I can actually come up with something original and legitimately release it using the Traveller OGL now".

We can either look at this as "the end of Traveller", or we can have a real renaissance in original SF settings. Personally I'd rather see it as the latter.

 

[CosmicGamer]

allow people to create their own SF universe. But what actually happened was that a lot of people decided to just stick with the Charted Space setting and they did their own alternatives based on that setting.

I can actually come up with something original and legitimately release it using the Traveller OGL now".

I'm a bit confused (I'm also a bit drunk) Is there anything that prevents people from creating their own universe using anything or everything from any and all versions of traveller or any other game? Shouldn't this be totally separate from someone releasing materials. And what the hack is "release"? Is there anything that can legally stop someone from posting on a personal web site how they play a game including giving direct quotes from current resources? I remember quoting stuff in my English papers and it was fine as long as I did it the right way. Or does "release" mean sell? To me it is very reasonable that you should not be able to sell something that uses material and ideas that belong to someone else. n'est-ce pas? Why the frack do I think in French when I'm drunk?

btw, I rolled a 10 and have a +1 DM for endurance so I'm not really drunk, right?

House rule: each drink = -1 Int and -1 Dex. So a 7 int -6 drinks (FYI not beer) = ???

 

[Gruffty the Hiver]

btw, I rolled a 10 and have a +1 DM for endurance so I'm not really drunk, right?

House rule: each drink = -1 Int and -1 Dex. So a 7 int -6 drinks (FYI not beer) = ???

= EPIC PHAIL! :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Commander Drax]

The solutions seems simple, rules are OGL, setting information is not, T20 managed this pretty well and didn't stop anybody publishing their OTU derived adventures and articles.

I like the OTU and simply wish to write good stuff for it that I can share with the Traveller Community, whether that's published in Stellar Reaches or my own fanzine (when I get around to making one). I'm not interested in making a profit or seeing my creative work becoming part of OTU canon. It's just stuff you can use for your own traveller games if you want. I don't see why this is a problem.

As for submitting generic adventures that can be played in any part of the OTU or any sci fi universe, I'm not minded to do this as such works are frequently lacklustre and unimaginative to the point where they may as well not be in print. Having an OTU background you can draw on adds richness to your work.

Like I say I don't want to earn any money out of it, or see my submissions becoming part of the OTU, I just want people to enjoy them, there must be a way this can be done, given that it's already been done before with previous traveller versions.

 

[GamerDude]

15. The use of the term Original Traveller Universe or any material directly connected to the Original Traveller Universe setting is expressly prohibited by this agreement.

...
So it looks to me like Mongoose did their best to excise any mention of the OTU setting from the SRD, and just keep the rules as generic as possible.

Damm dude... can't you just let the rest of us have some hope this will end up in a positive way, or do you just always have to cram stuff down other people's throats.

None of us have made a claim that the TLL has lots of room in it and you don't have to use the logo to use the OGL etc.

We're just putting forth ideas that we think could be possible solutions.