Stealth - A New Approach

[Alexb83]

Dpending on how you took that conversation, Sheridan did seem to imply EA had equipment that could see through the Stealth (checking the model of the sensors fitted with Ivanova). Conversely of course, if he thought EA had the tech, why be surprised in the first place that they could see the ships?

I don't see it that way, I saw it that he was checking that the B5 sensors were not new ones that might have been improved since the ones he last used in anger at the Minbari. B5 being as underfunded as it was, it makes sense that it had 10 year old kit.

As for the stealth thing being per weapon, what about a campaign upgrade:

Improved sensor suite:
Nominate one arc, when firing on a stealthed ship in that arc you may make 1 stealth roll per weapon system targeting that vessel rather than 1 roll total. This benefit applies to all stealthed targets in that arc that are being attacked.

LBH

This is from the Lurker's guide, a quote from JMS:

Correct above; Sheridan says, quite specifically, in the conference room with Ivanova after the Grey Council guy is gone, "they used some kind of stealth technology WE'VE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO BREAK." It's not a matter of old or cheaper tech; we just haven't broken their technology yet.

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/023.html

 

[Burger]

Or you could allow a ship to only be locked on to one ship at a time, using all its sensors to maintain the lock on the one ship.

Nick

Thats fairly similar to the special action I proposed. "If stealth check is passed, no further stealth checks need to be performed as long as the SA is maintained" could be added to the end of that SA.

(Nobody has noticed yet, that I only proposed that SA to stop people from splitting fire/using multiple arcs! :lol: )

 

[Alexb83]

I think that if a ship did manage to lock on, even momentarily, all the stealth vessel would need to do was pass behind another object, or change course and speed significantly and it would become stealthy again.
The only answer to an effective stealth technology is to become retrograde - use the mk.1 eyeball when the mk 10k super targetting computer is telling you something isn't there.

This is how the Kosovans managed to shoot down a stealth bomber - they simply listened at night to guess its flight path, lined up their missiles and fired away the next time they heard one come over. Nothing fancy about it - I think a special action allowing satturation fire with reduced AD is a good option (and marries nicely with how we see the White Star fire at extreme range a few times in the series). Make it a special action with a medium CQ check, as it requires an experienced gunner.

 

[Burger]

The problem I have with this saturated fire idea, is the area that would need to be saturated. Low-flying stealth bombers is one thing, but in ACTA we're talking about areas many hundreds of cubic km's. It's impossible to saturate that size area with fire.

 

[captainsmirk]

This is from the Lurker's guide, a quote from JMS:

Correct above; Sheridan says, quite specifically, in the conference room with Ivanova after the Grey Council guy is gone, "they used some kind of stealth technology WE'VE NEVER BEEN ABLE TO BREAK." It's not a matter of old or cheaper tech; we just haven't broken their technology yet.

http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/guide/023.html

Yeah I've read that, but BREAKING stealth suggests that the stealth is now completely useless, perhaps their sensors are just better at working against it. There must have been some reason to bring up that B5 sensors were ancient, if the modern ones were no better he wouldn't have even bothered to state that. Admittedly they hadn't had much chance to test any new sensors against Minbari stealth...

I've never understood why if the Minbari stealth tech was so massively effective it didn't seem to be fitted to the White Stars (in B5wars it was, but wasn't as massively effective as it appears in the show), would seem sensible to fit it to that to make the ship as difficult to destroy as possible

 

[Black Omega]

The problem I have with this saturated fire idea, is the area that would need to be saturated. Low-flying stealth bombers is one thing, but in ACTA we're talking about areas many hundreds of cubic km's. It's impossible to saturate that size area with fire.

Agreed, also for the record it was a stealth fighter (F-117) not a stealth bomber (B-2) which was shot down. Staying with that analogy however firing at spacecraft in ACTA is more like trying to shoot down a stealth bomber flying at 30,000ft with those kosovan missiles and good luck with that!

 

[Alexb83]

This is why I would advocate reducing the AD of the attack, and removing any special weapon traits (i.e. super AP, whatever else) and perhaps even giving it the weak trait to boot. You aim your pulse cannons in the general direction of the enemy ship, 'spray and pray'. I agree that the area you're covering is large (hence the lack of precise or effective fire). But stealth doesn't make the ships invisible, as we see in Matters of Honour. You can still /see/ them, even if they are little blue dots. It's just that your computer can't. So you have a fair notion of where to throw your supression fire.

Yes, sorry for the slight inexactitude about the fighter. It wasn't a B-2, but it was carrying bombs

 

[Burger]

I've never understood why if the Minbari stealth tech was so massively effective it didn't seem to be fitted to the White Stars (in B5wars it was, but wasn't as massively effective as it appears in the show), would seem sensible to fit it to that to make the ship as difficult to destroy as possible

It was created for going up against the Shadows, presumably the Shadows would have no problems breaking the stealth tech (they'd ignore it, not like the +1 we get!). Why would the Vorlons allow the Mnbari to install stealth systems, which would not help them against the Shadows, but which would give them an advantage against the younger races (something the Vorlons opposed).

 

[Black Omega]

I've never understood why if the Minbari stealth tech was so massively effective it didn't seem to be fitted to the White Stars (in B5wars it was, but wasn't as massively effective as it appears in the show), would seem sensible to fit it to that to make the ship as difficult to destroy as possible

Maybe its something to do with ship maneuvrability. Usually you see the minbari sharlins moving along quite gracefully and at (what appears to be) a sedate pace whereas the white stars are whizzing about all over the place. Perhaps the stealth tech relies on the ship not making sudden maneuvers or changes in speed.

 

[Alexb83]

I've never understood why if the Minbari stealth tech was so massively effective it didn't seem to be fitted to the White Stars (in B5wars it was, but wasn't as massively effective as it appears in the show), would seem sensible to fit it to that to make the ship as difficult to destroy as possible

Maybe its something to do with ship maneuvrability. Usually you see the minbari sharlins moving along quite gracefully and at (what appears to be) a sedate pace whereas the white stars are whizzing about all over the place. Perhaps the stealth tech relies on the ship not making sudden maneuvers or changes in speed.

I'd go with that, except that it also works on Minbari fighters in the series, which also whizz around all over the place

 

[Burger]

This is why I would advocate reducing the AD of the attack, and removing any special weapon traits (i.e. super AP, whatever else) and perhaps even giving it the weak trait to boot. You aim your pulse cannons in the general direction of the enemy ship, 'spray and pray'. I agree that the area you're covering is large (hence the lack of precise or effective fire).

OK, reduce the AD to 1 and remove all special traits. Add Weak. Add "Cannot cause crits".


Hardly really worth the effort, is it?

 

[Black Omega]

This is why I would advocate reducing the AD of the attack, and removing any special weapon traits (i.e. super AP, whatever else) and perhaps even giving it the weak trait to boot. You aim your pulse cannons in the general direction of the enemy ship, 'spray and pray'. I agree that the area you're covering is large (hence the lack of precise or effective fire). But stealth doesn't make the ships invisible, as we see in Matters of Honour. You can still /see/ them, even if they are little blue dots. It's just that your computer can't. So you have a fair notion of where to throw your supression fire.

Well if you add that due to the long range and the *extreme* unlikeliness of actually hitting anything you need to roll a 6,6 on 2D6 then i'm with ya

Yes, sorry for the slight inexactitude about the fighter. It wasn't a B-2, but it was carrying bombs

yes i've always thought the F-117 being referred to as a "fighter" as a bit misleading myself but then the USAF classifies the A-10 as a fighter too i believe, at least its listed under fighters on their website.

 

[Alexb83]

OK, reduce the AD to 1 and remove all special traits. Add Weak. Add "Cannot cause crits".


Hardly really worth the effort, is it?

That's going too far. If you look at what would be the clearest example I can think of (circa E-M war) it would be a nova trying to throw out pulse shots at a closing Sharlin, with the computer screaming 'no weapons lock!'. Frankly it's hardly worth having the special action as the main guns only shoot within 12 anyways (close enough to push closer and get the +1 vs stealth?).

Perhaps thinking of this special action for stealth is a bit pointless, as anything that completely ignores stealth is going to really hamstring minbari, even if it is only going to be my proposed 6 weak AD at 12 inches (using the above example) - anything is better than nothing, however, would be my take on it.

In the series we see them firing on manual at extreme range (outside the tolerance of the computer). Perhaps it should be 1/2 AD with no traits but +50% range in any given arc, still having to deal with stealth as usual.

 

[captainsmirk]

Well any single or twin engined aircraft with two or less crew which can carry a range of munitions gets refered to as a fighter. :lol:

But why the F-117 is an F and not an A I have no idea, then again it might have been an attempt to confuse the russians...

But the F-111 is also an F and that isn't an air-to-air fighter. :?

Nick

 

[Target]

So far the ideas we have come up with are.
Failed stealth roll = 1-4 for bulkhead hits 5-6 normal
Failed stealth roll = Only hit on 6's and weapons lose all traits except beam
Failed stealth roll = +2 Hull to stealthed ship, 6's still hit
Failed Stealth roll = A Stealth save is rolled ( similar to dodge)
Once a Stealth roll is made that ship can keep on targeting that ship and only that ship. A new SA " Bust that lock" for stealth ship to break the lock, maybe an opposed roll.
Spray and pray half AD and lose traits on weapons presume this is on failed stealth roll.
Sorry if i missed any or got them wrong.

 

[Commador Q]

I've never understood why if the Minbari stealth tech was so massively effective it didn't seem to be fitted to the White Stars (in B5wars it was, but wasn't as massively effective as it appears in the show), would seem sensible to fit it to that to make the ship as difficult to destroy as possible

It was created for going up against the Shadows, presumably the Shadows would have no problems breaking the stealth tech (they'd ignore it, not like the +1 we get!). Why would the Vorlons allow the Mnbari to install stealth systems, which would not help them against the Shadows, but which would give them an advantage against the younger races (something the Vorlons opposed).

i thought it was because the WS were built without the knowledge/permission of the Military cast so their stealth systems were more akin to that of civilian craft (think a flyer's stealth suit on a Ship potentuially hundreds of times it's size)

 

[captainsmirk]

Well as the Religious and Worker castes also operate Sharlins, and its the workers who actually manufacture the stealth systems I think there is a wider distribution than just to the Warrior caste.

Nick

 

[Commador Q]

not nesisarily, i mean Boeing manufactures military and civilian craft, but that doen't mean military grade electroniks suits are available for non military orders. beides there's no reason to believe the Sharlins operated by non military cast minbari aren't second hand, or that they have the same stealth as those used by the military cast.

 

[captainsmirk]

Well they were involved along side the Warrior caste ones during the E-M war. And is there any point having a warship which isn't a full warship.

As I said the White Star had Stealth (well a Jammer anyway) in B5wars. I suspect a major reason that it never will have in ACTA is that it already has dodge, adaptive armour, etc and giving it any more would just have made it impossible to kill...

Nick

 

[Burger]

I still say its the Vorlons, they wanted to give the Minbari a ship to kill the Shadows, but not one which would be invincible against the other younger races.
Tin foil helmet time