Space Combat - Did I miss something?

[MonsterX]

HG p. 37, Missile and torpedoes are given flight times out to distant range, which ends at 300.000km. This is also stated to be the edge of practical space combat ( with the exception of missiles (and presumably also torpedoes), which are on ballistic trajectories that effectively have unlimited range (these can't hit a mobile target, but can hit a target that can't move out of the way)).

The rules are clear that space combat ranges go out to 300000. Though they are not as clear as they should be: lots of places in the rules 50000+ is cited for "Distant" and it becomes a research project to find out how far "Distant" goes out to; 300000 is mentioned RAW but not everywhere where Distant is defined. It should be: every single place where Distant is cited, the outer end of the range band should also be stated.

Not all ships will be making detections that far out: this is why premium sensors are useful, and cheap sensors are cheap. It is entirely plausible that the cheap ass old TL 12 free trader with its cheap minimal laser cannon and cheap ass commercial sensor system is not as capable in detection, targeting, and hitting stuff at long ranges as a TL15 Imperial Navy BATRON.

Direct fire weapons don't go out past Very Long range - and modifications don't let you mod beyond this either, not even for Imperial Navy BATRONs. So combat from 50000- 300000 will be using only missiles and torpedoes. Which makes those weapons important for long range combat and also makes the torpedoes endurance characteristic important - missiles can do it but the multiple halvings that tend to happen when you shoot this far away (plus the multiple rounds of EW) really make them pretty ineffective .

As per the rules, at this range, sensors per the rules don't allow detection of most characteristics which would distinguish possible targets from each other. There is always the option of assuming the unidentified object is the enemy and just shooting it. Whether this is a good idea is very context dependent - in a war zone or context where you've been tracking a ship and know from context what the blip is, shooting is probably just going to be the baseline presumption. In a non-war civilian environment, not- shooting will hopefully be the norm and more information needed. Also BATRONs will have swarms of fighters that they can send out to have a look for them.

Warships and aircraft IRL target each other on imperfect information, and they certainly will in space too, if IRL space war ever becomes a thing. I think we can assume it will happen in Traveller too. There will be mistakes as a result, systems to prevent those mistakes, as well as imperfections in those systems which cause the mistakes to happen anyways. But the logic of shooting first when you have the option to do so is quite strong, so Distant range combat is a thing.

 

[Endie]

HG p. 37, Missile and torpedoes are given flight times out to distant range, which ends at 300.000km. This is also stated to be the edge of practical space combat ( with the exception of missiles (and presumably also torpedoes), which are on ballistic trajectories that effectively have unlimited range (these can't hit a mobile target, but can hit a target that can't move out of the way)).

The rules are clear that space combat ranges go out to 300000. Though they are not as clear as they should be: lots of places in the rules 50000+ is cited for "Distant" and it becomes a research project to find out how far "Distant" goes out to; 300000 is mentioned RAW but not everywhere where Distant is defined. It should be: every single place where Distant is cited, the outer end of the range band should also be stated.

Not all ships will be making detections that far out: this is why premium sensors are useful, and cheap sensors are cheap. It is entirely plausible that the cheap ass old TL 12 free trader with its cheap minimal laser cannon and cheap ass commercial sensor system is not as capable in detection, targeting, and hitting stuff at long ranges as a TL15 Imperial Navy BATRON.

Direct fire weapons don't go out past Very Long range - and modifications don't let you mod beyond this either, not even for Imperial Navy BATRONs. So combat from 50000- 300000 will be using only missiles and torpedoes. Which makes those weapons important for long range combat and also makes the torpedoes endurance characteristic important - missiles can do it but the multiple halvings that tend to happen when you shoot this far away (plus the multiple rounds of EW) really make them pretty ineffective .

As per the rules, at this range, sensors per the rules don't allow detection of most characteristics which would distinguish possible targets from each other. There is always the option of assuming the unidentified object is the enemy and just shooting it. Whether this is a good idea is very context dependent - in a war zone or context where you've been tracking a ship and know from context what the blip is, shooting is probably just going to be the baseline presumption. In a non-war civilian environment, not- shooting will hopefully be the norm and more information needed. Also BATRONs will have swarms of fighters that they can send out to have a look for them.

Warships and aircraft IRL target each other on imperfect information, and they certainly will in space too, if IRL space war ever becomes a thing. I think we can assume it will happen in Traveller too. There will be mistakes as a result, systems to prevent those mistakes, as well as imperfections in those systems which cause the mistakes to happen anyways. But the logic of shooting first when you have the option to do so is quite strong, so Distant range combat is a thing.

Absolutely!

It would also be naive to imagine that the deployed sensor net model including drones, stealthy passive platforms etc (they’re both in the rules and it has happened IRL since at least the eighties) will be forgotten. Even in today’s naval combat, the model is to maintain range and strike at the edge of your own sensor capability (and preferably beyond the edge of your enemy’s). That’s been common since 1940s carrier warfare, with distributed sensor nets used there (manned spotters and radar).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I see nothing to support or refute the idea that 'minimal information' is enough to positively identify a ship, nevermind achieve a weapon-lock.

At Distant you get Minimal information, a sensor blip. You can't identify the ship, but that it is a ship.

Why would you need anything more than a position (and vector) to shoot at it? You might not want to, but you can.

A warfleet of 100+ sensor blips that refuses to identify in wartime, that can safely be assumed to be an attack, and you shoot.

If that sensor blip does not have a transponder and does not respond to hails, it's not up to anything good. In peacetime you might investigate, in wartime you might shoot, up to the commander on the spot.

The rules for 'ranges beyond Distant' make it clear that sensors are greatly degraded -- at 'Far' it is only possible to detect ships that jump in or out; and can only (presumably even after extended observation) approximate the size of a detected object 'to the nearest 10000 dTons'. Is that ~30000 dTon contact a Valiant-class Light Cruiser, or an unarmed Galoof?

So, you agree we can detect ships even beyond Distant range?

Very Distant makes Electonics (Sensor) checks Formidable (14+) -- and presumably no extra information is gained over what is available at 'Distant', although it seems very strange to suppose that even the same information is possible. Again, nothing here indicates that a hostile ship can be identified (or even detected, if it is not revealed by jump-flash) or engaged at these ranges.

In the Core book, Distant is anything beyond 50 000 km, HG restricted this to 300 000 km:

HG'22, p26:
When using these rules, Distant covers ranges up to 300,000km, which is the maximum practical range that attacks can be made. However, it is possible for sensors to reach further in order to detect incoming threats. The following new range bands reflect this.
Very Distant (up to 5,000,000km): All Electronics (sensors) checks become Formidable (14+).
Far (over 5,000,000km): At these ranges, ...

So, we can attack at Distant range, and detect ships up to Very Distant range, it's just more difficult at Very Distant.

If you want to rule at your table that 'Minimal' information (or less) is enough to start shooting, then that is your call -- but I do not think that is the intent of the rules, and it does not seem to be a good way to run it for my table.

It is certainly the intent of the rules to allow attacks at Distant range, where we can't get more than Minimal sensor information:

Core'22, p172:
Note that while missile salvos can be fired at Distant ranges, the attacking ship must have detected its target before they can be launched. Given the limited information that can be gained from sensors at this range, friendly fire incidents may be common among Travellers who are too trigger happy with their missiles.

Honestly, if I was doing fleet battles non-narratively then I would probably start by cribbing something similar to D17.4 ('Levels of Information' for Tactical Intelligence) from Star Fleet Battles.

You can of course house rule anything you like.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I am reading the rules. Page 160 in the Core Rules update:

Yes, very selectively...

As we both have quoted before:

Core'22, p165:
Most hostile encounters in space will start at Very Long or Distant ranges, when the combatants first detect one another.
However, actual combat will start when one of the combatants manages to move into range of their weapons, typically Long or Medium range.
However, in some circumstances ships might get a lot closer before hostilities begin, perhaps getting as near as Close range if a pirate successfully pretends to be an honest merchant, for example.

Most hostile encounters in space will start at Very Long or Distant ranges, when the combatants first detect one another.

So we can explicitly detect at Distant range.

However, actual combat will start when one of the combatants manages to move into range of their weapons, typically Long or Medium range.

We can start shooting when weapons range.
For a Free Trader with a turret laser, that is Medium or Long range.
For a warship with a large particle bay or missiles, that is Distant Range.

However, in some circumstances ships might get a lot closer before hostilities begin, perhaps getting as near as Close range if a pirate successfully pretends to be an honest merchant, for example.

We might, under special circumstances, get closer before the shooting starts, but that has to be engineered.


Normally, warships can see each other at Distant range, and can start shooting when weapons bear at up to Distant range.

When the table says 'None', I interpret that to mean 'None'. Sensors report no information; not a detection, not an identification, not a friend-or-foe, not a firing solution. Nothing. That sensor is Out Of Range.

Quite, but all sensor packages, even Basic, includes Thermal and Radar sensors that gives information at Distant range.
That is Core book Distant, anything over 50 000 km.

Sure, HG restricts sensor performance at Far range (5 000 000+ km), but that does not restrict Distant range in any way.

The patch was needed because HGU introduced weapons which could realistically get into situations where firing at Distant range was possible, and they needed something to avoid infinite range weapons.

The Core book includes missiles that can attack at Distant range.

 

[MonsterX]

It would also be naive to imagine that the deployed sensor net model including drones, stealthy passive platforms etc (they’re both in the rules and it has happened IRL since at least the eighties) will be forgotten. Even in today’s naval combat, the model is to maintain range and strike at the edge of your own sensor capability (and preferably beyond the edge of your enemy’s). That’s been common since 1940s carrier warfare, with distributed sensor nets used there (manned spotters and radar).

Yes, the rules don't cover these as much as they should; there are probe drones and such, but their capabilities are defined in the Robot Handbook, with examples on p249. These are done in much more detail than HG, but the selection there is small, and they are pretty low end. TL15 versions optimized for naval warfare would make a lot of sense. It would be possible to design them using the RH rules. The ones in the RH are missile warheads, which makes sense, but putting a ship's brain on a HG light fighter design, with high end sensors would be a good idea to get an unmanned sensor platform. Also Navy ship designs which carry manned small craft optimized for sensors and stealth, should be common.

My players are always shooting off probe missiles at dangerous looking objects; if they didn't have a couple hundred engineers, workshops and several high end fabricators to build stuff for them, it would start to get kind of expensive. It makes it hard to sneak something up on them.