Space Combat - Did I miss something?

[J. L. Brown]

Torpedoes are losers vs point-defense.

A Small Missile Bay launches 12 missiles (1 dTon) per shot; a Small Torpedo Bay launches 3 torpedoes (1 dTon) per shot.
For standard missiles, that is 150 KCr for 12x 4D of damage, and 12 points of Point Defense to shoot them all down.
For standard torpedoes, that is 450 KCr for 3x 6D of damage, and 6 points of Point Defense to shoot them all down.

For Multi-Warhead munitions:
Standard MW-missiles cost 750 KCr for 12x 3x 3D of damage, and 36 points of Point Defense to shoot them all down.
Standard MW-torpedoes cost 1200 KCr for 3x 3x 3D of damage, and 18 points of Point Defense to shoot them all down.

Plus, as you point out, each Anti-Torpedo Missiles destroys 'Effect' of Torpedoes, while Fragmentation Missiles each destroy only one incoming missile. There are no Anti-Torpedo nor Anti-Missile torpedoes at all. Missiles can be fired without penalty at all targets; torpedoes have a -2 vs targets below 2000 dTons.

EW rules also favor missiles; and do not get me started on 'Barbettes'.

It looks like the only advantages that torpedoes have are:
1} that they do not suffer losses after 5 full turns of flight -- which is only a factor (for standard missiles) at ranges beyond 'Very Long'. Even then, halving the number of missiles in flight once only puts missiles at parity with (not a disadvantage to) torpedoes.
2} they do more damage per (non-nuclear) individual, which gives them an advantage vs targets with (especially heavy, about 13+) armor.

 

[Condottiere]

Torpedoes are tougher to shoot down.

 

[J. L. Brown]

Torpedoes are tougher to shoot down.

Please read my post. That is already accounted for.

 

[rinku]

There may be other factors when you look at the variant ordnance, especially a torpedo that is particularly hard to kill or splits into several missiles. Dunno, I'm not invested enough to check.

It does occur to me, though, that a drone designed to be fired from a standard missile or torpedo launcher might be worth looking at. A torp sized one that maneuvers to (or is launched at) close range and starts shooting a laser or does something else fancy.

 

[ProfGrizzlyJon]

There may be other factors when you look at the variant ordnance, especially a torpedo that is particularly hard to kill or splits into several missiles. Dunno, I'm not invested enough to check.

It does occur to me, though, that a drone designed to be fired from a standard missile or torpedo launcher might be worth looking at. A torp sized one that maneuvers to (or is launched at) close range and starts shooting a laser or does something else fancy.

These exist.
Multi-warheads and bomb-pumped.

 

[J. L. Brown]

These exist.
Multi-warheads and bomb-pumped.

My original post compared Standard Missiles vs Standard Torpedos. Torpedoes were worse. It also compared Multi-Warhead Standard Missiles against Multi-Warhead Standard Torpedoes. Torpedoes were worse.

There are no Multi-Warhead Nuclear Missiles; but Nuclear Missiles are vastly superior to the Multi-Warhead Nuclear Torpedo sub-munitions -- and you get more Nuclear Missile warheads, cheaper, per dTon (12 for 450 KCr) than you get Nuclear sub-munitions in a dTon (9 for 1800 KCr) of Multi-Warhead Nuclear Torpedoes. I also pointed this out in my post.

There are Advanced, Antimatter, Antimatter Bomb-Pumped, Anti-radiation, Bomb-Pumped, Ion, Multi-Warhead Antimatter, Multi-Warhead Standard, Multi-Warhead Nuclear, Nuclear, Ortillery, Plasma, and Standard Torpedoes. Anti-Matter based torps are not available at the usual Technology Levels that the game is played at, so 'Stupid Torpedo Tricks' that missiles cannot duplicate are confined to: Anti-radiation, Bomb-Pumped, Multi-Warhead Nuclear, and Plasma Torpedoes.

Anti-Radiation Torpedoes are (more expensive, higher TL) standard Torpedoes, which get a +6 to hit if the target used EW & auto-miss otherwise. Note that Anti-Radiation Torpedoes are not immune to EW or other counter-measures. This is absolutely not worth it.

Bomb-pumped are interesting, but the in-game mechanical effect is that one additional Torpedo survives Point Defense -- which the does the same amount of damage as a Standard Missile. It is not worth the extra cost, and 'Decoy Missiles' do something very similar.

Multi-Warhead Nuclear are awful; they are not destructive. They are essentially standard torpedoes with the 'Radiation' trait. Not worth it.

Plasma Torpedoes are 1DD and AP 10. This is essentially (but worse than) 1D+1 & Destructive. Again, not worth it compared to Missiles.

On the other hand, 'Stupid Missile Tricks' that Torpedoes cannot duplicate (in High Guard Update) are Anti-Torpedo, Decoy, Fragmentation, Jump-breaker, and Shockwave. Add Dogfight and Interceptor missiles from the Companion. This means that:
Missiles can shoot down Torpedoes and Missiles; Torpedoes cannot.
Missiles can (with a single salvo) attack up to four targets within adjacent range to each other; Torpedoes cannot.
Missiles can seriously disrupt attempts to Jump away; Torpedoes cannot.
Missiles can negate sand for defense; Torpedoes cannot.

Torpedoes are a seriously terrible choice, compared to Missiles. And they are slower. Best-case, they are highly situational -- the target has maximum armor, and the attacker cannot use Nuclear (or Anti-Matter) weapons.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

My original post compared Standard Missiles vs Standard Torpedos. Torpedoes were worse. It also compared Multi-Warhead Standard Missiles against Multi-Warhead Standard Torpedoes. Torpedoes were worse.

You are making it too simple. Compare ships, not individual systems.


Missiles has Fixed Mounts, torpedo bays are cheaper. I haven't done the maths for HG'22, but in HG'16 a torpedo ship is slightly cheaper, so you get slightly more launchers and slightly more hull points per Cr. And a salvo of nuke torpedoes is much cheaper than a salvo of nuke missiles.


Salvo size of missiles are halved every five rounds, torpedoes unaffected. At Distant range only 25% of missiles reach to attack, but 100% of torpedoes.


A nuke missile does 1DD damage (average 35 damage or 10 damage vs armour 30).
A nuke torpedo does 2DD damage (average 70 damage or 40 damage vs armour 30).
Only twice the damage before armour, much more after armour.


EW obliterates a salvo of 100 (at Distant range), but is just a nuisance against a salvo of 1000. Size of platform matters for both missiles and torpedoes. Torpedoes are for battleship-sized platforms.


And, of course, the Anti-Torpedo Missile destroys any hope of doing damage with torpedoes.