I’m not really sure, if I got all that right.
Would you kindly bear with me as I’m trying to come up with an example, which hopefully can be used to clarify the issues I have with spells or rather their interaction with each other.
Jezat, a God Learner Sorcerer
Civilized Sorcerer
Characteristics: STR13, CON9, DEX9, SIZ12, INT15, POW14, CHA13
CA 2, DM +0, SR +12 (armour penalty included), Move 8m, MP: 14
Skills: Acrobatics 29, Athletics 40, Brawn 25, Courtesy 28, Culture (Jrusteli) 60, Dance 24, Drive 30, Evade 30, Evaluate 55, First Aid 35, Influence 55, Insight 34, Language (Jrusteli) 85, Language (Theyalan) 58, Lore (Jrusteli) 70, Lore (Orlanthi Theology) 40, Perception 40, Persistence 58, Resilience 43, Ride 40, Sing 27, Sleight 43, Stealth 45, Swim 30, Unarmed 30
Atk:
Dagger 34 (Dagger, 1d4+1; S, S, Bleed, Impale, 6/ 8 ), 1H Sword 40 (Shortsword, 1d6; M, S, Bleed, Impale; 6 / 8 )
Hit Points: 5 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 4 / 4 / 5
Armour: none; Armour Penalty -0
Sorcery (Burning Skies Grimoire) 63, Manipulation 58
Abjure (Air), Animate (Fire), Animate (Stone), Form/Set (Fire), Haste, Treat Wounds, Wrack (Fire)
Common Magic (64): Fire Arrow (1), Fire Blade (3), Ignite (1), Mindspeech 1
Equipment: Dagger, Shortsword
Borges, a God Learner Sorcerer
Civilized Sorcerer
Characteristics: STR9, CON9, DEX13, SIZ14, INT15, POW15, CHA14
CA 3, DM +0, SR +14 (armour penalty included), Move 8m, MP: 15
Skills: Athletics 35, Brawn 23, Courtesy 33, Culture (Jrusteli) 65, Dance 27, Drive 28, Evade 26, Evaluate 55, First Aid 35, Influence 55, Insight 44, Language (Jrusteli) 85, Language (Theyalan) 63, Lore (Heortland) 33, Lore (Jrusteli) 73, Lore (Orlanthi Theology) 43, Perception 27, Persistence 64, Resilience 37, Ride 40, Sing 29, Sleight 27, Stealth 28, Swim 30, Unarmed 30
Atk:
Dagger 32 (Dagger, 1d4+1; S, S, Bleed, Impale, 6/ 8 )
Hit Points: 5 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 4 / 4 / 5
Armour: none; Armour Penalty -0
Sorcery (Mystic Armour Grimoire) 67, Manipulation 63
Attract (Missiles), Damage Resistance, Hinder, Neutralize Magic, Protective Ward, Spell Resistance, Spirit Resistance
Common Magic (67): Mindspeech 1, Second Sight (3), Understanding 2
Equipment: Dagger
Helera, an Orlanthi Initiate of Ernalda Earthmother
Barbarian Farmer
Characteristics: STR12, CON8, DEX10, SIZ10, INT14, POW13, CHA13
CA 2, DM +0, SR +13 (armour penalty included), Move 8m, MP: 9
Skills: Athletics 37, Brawn 37, Craft (Farming) 40, Culture (Orlanthi) 65, Dance 237, Drive 31, Evade 34, Evaluate 55, First Aid 55, Influence 53, Insight 49, Language (Theyalan) 78, Lore (Hendrikiland) 71, Perception 49, Persistence 42, Resilience 53, Ride 31, Sing 29, Sleight 30, Stealth 32, Survival 38, Swim 20, Unarmed 32
Atk:
Dagger 32 (Dagger, 1d4+1; S, S, Bleed, Impale, 6/ 8 )
Sword & Shield 50 (Shortsword, 1d6; M, S, Bleed, Impale; 6 / 8 & Bucker; 1d3, M, S, none, 6 / 8 )
Hit Points: 4 / 4 / 5 / 6 / 3 / 3 / 4
Armour: none; Armour Penalty -0
Common Magic (62): Countermagic 2, Countermagic Shield 2, Endurance 1, Heal 3
Divine Magic (Lore (Ernalda Earthmother Theology) 72, Pact (Ernalda Earthmother) 52 (dedicated POW 4): Amplify, Elemental Summoning (Earth), Heal Wound), Shield
Equipment: Dagger, Shortsword, Buckler
Korengol, an Orlanthi Initiate of Orlanth Adventurous
Barbarian Warrior
Characteristics: STR13, CON10, DEX12, SIZ15, INT12, POW10, CHA10
CA 3, DM +1d2, SR +8 (armour penalty included), Move 8m, MP7
Skills: Athletics 60, Brawn 50, Culture (Orlanthi) 60, Dance 22, Drive 40, Evade 50, Evaluate 25, First Aid 30, Influence 20, Insight 30, Language (Theyalan) 75, Lore (Hendrikiland) 60, Lore (Tactics) 30, Perception 30, Persistence 47, Resilience 61, Ride 35, Sing 19, Sleight 22, Stealth 40, Survival 30, Swim 30, Unarmed 40
Atk:
Dagger 30 (Dagger, 1d4+1+1d2; S, S, Bleed, Impale, 6/ 8 ),
Axe and Shield 77 (Battleaxe 1d6+1+1d2, M/M, Bleed, 4/ 8 & Heater Shield 1d4+1d2, L/S, 6/12),
2H Axe 75 (Battleaxe 1d8+1+1d2, M/M, Bleed, Sunder, 4/ 8 )
Bow 40 (Longbow, 1d8+1d2, 175m, Load 1, H, Impale, 4/7)
Hit Points: 5 / 5 / 6 / 7 / 4 / 4 / 5
Armour: Scale Mail Hauberk, Hard Leather Vambraces, Hard leather Greaves, Scale Mail Helm (4 AP on Head, Abdomen and Chest, 2 AP on legs and arms, -4 armour penalty)
Common Magic 71: Bladesharp 2, Sky Bolt (3), Strength 2, Mobility 3
Divine Magic (Lore (Orlanth Adventurous) 59, Pact (Orlanth Adventurous) 47, dedicated POW 3): Alter Target, Lightning Strike, Shield
Equipment: Dagger, Battleaxe, Heater Shield, Longbow, 10 Arrows (bodkin)
First Round
Jezat casts Wrack (Fire), applies 2 to range (5m x POW), 1 to targets (Helera and Korengol) and 3 to magnitude (Magnitude 4). This will take 3 CAs, as he only has 2 the spell will only be cast next round.
Borges casts Damage Resistance and Spell Resistance on both himself and Jezat and thus applies 2 to range (5m x POW), 1 to targets, 1 to combine, 3 to magnitude (Magnitude 3). This will take 4 CAs, so again, the spell will only be cast next round.
Helera casts Countermagic Shield 2 on herself. She rolls 58 and succeeds, deducting 2 MPs. This takes 1 CA.
Korengol casts Shield, which takes 1 CA. He rolls 13 and thus gains 5 points of magical protection. This costs no MPs.
Helera casts Elemental Summoning, rolls a 76% and thus fails, using her second and last CA this round.
Korengal begins to cast Sky Bolt against Jezat. This will take 2 CAs and thus is completed only next round
Second Round
Jezat rolls for his spell (he uses his 1st CA to do so) and gets 59, a success. Jezat deducts 4 MPs. Both Helera and Korengol need to resist. Helera’s Countermagic Shield has magnitude 2 versus Jezat’s Wrack magnitude of 4, thus Wrack penetrates. Helera may now roll Resistance versus Jezat’s roll of 59, i.e. only a critical success will save her. She roll 23, which is not enough. The Wrack thus deals 1d8 minus 2 damage to a random location. Jezat rolls 4 and Helera takes 2 damage to her right arm.
Normally, a Countermagic Shield would be eliminated if it is successfully penetrated (which is the case in the example), but seemingly, a Wrack does not cancel this common spell. Instead the defensive spell’s magnitude is counted as a reduction of the damage.
Also, does Jezat’s spell indeed take effect after completion – as I describe it - or does he need to spend yet another CA to apply the effect ? The questions has been raised and I’d like to have some backup.
Korengol’s protection is magnitude 5, so Jezat’s spell does not penetrate at all.
This would normally cancel the Wrack, but again there is a special rule as stated in the description of the Wrack spell. So the question is: does the Wrack spell still persist ? What I’m aiming at is this: suppose in the future Korengol’s spell is eliminated while Jezat kept concentrating on it the whole time. Will it then be able to affect Korengol or has the Wrack against Korengal actually been eliminated… just like in the normal description of Countermagic Shield ? That special paragraph of the Wrack spell is starting to give me massive headaches…
Borges completes his spell and needs to roll below 57% (-10% due to the second spell being combined with the first). He rolls 27 and deducts 5MPs. Both he and Jezat gain Damage Resistance 7 and Spell Resistance 7. He has 2 remaining CAs.
Helera casts Amplify on herself, uses 1 CA to do so, and rolls 37%, a success. Her progressive common magic spells will have their magnitude increased by 6, up to a maximum of 10.
Korengol completes his Sky Bolt and rolls 33%, using 1 CA to do so and deducting 3 MPs. However, the Bolt sizzles away when it hits Jezat’s protective magical shield doing no harm at all.
Jezat uses his second and last CA to continue his Wrack, even though it’s obvious that Korengol is impervious to the spell. Helera has failed with her first resistance roll and is not allowed to make further rolls. Jezat rolls a 5 and thus deal 3 damage on Helera’s left leg.
Borges begins to cast Neutralize Magic, applies 2 to range (5mxPOW), 1 to targets (both Helera and Korengol) and 4 to magnitude (Magnitude 5). This spell will take 3 CAs to complete.
Helera cast again Countermagic Shield 2 on herself. She rolls 48 and succeeds, deducting 2 MPs. She has 5 MPs remaining. This takes 1 CA. Due to her Amplify spell, the magnitude of her spell actually becomes 8.
Korengol casts Lightning Strike on Jezat. However, the magnitude of his divine spell is only 5 and thus stops dead at Jezat’s magical defences of magnitude 7. This used Korengol’s last CA.
Just to elaborate a bit more on the Lightning Strike. Let’s assume just for a second that Borges’ defensive spells would only have magnitude 4. As such the Spell Resistance would not have been able to block the Lightning Strike. The Damage Resistance would also be at magnitude 4. The damage roll for the Lightning Strike is 11. Now there are three possibilities for resolving this case:
a) The 11 is higher than the 4 of the defensive spell. As such, the offensive spell completes bypasses the other spell, causing the full 11 damage
b) The damage is reduced by the magical defence, i.e. it causes 7 damage
c) Damage Resistance does not grant magical AP, as such the spell does not protect at all, the full 11 damage are applied.
It’s case 3, right ?
Third Round
Jezat uses another CA to apply his Wrack effect. However, since Helera’s amplified Countermagic Shield has a magnitude of 8 and the damage roll is only 1d8, Helera is now safe from this particular spell, until either her Countermagic Shield or her Amplify is eliminated. Jezat has 1 CA left.
Mistake !
Page 110: It will not have any effect on spells that are already affecting the character
So actually the Wrack hurts Helera for 1d8 damage
Borges uses 1 CA to finish casting his spell. He rolls 31 and easily succeeds with the spell, deducting another 4MPs. He has 6 MPs remaining. Helera is protected by a Countermagic Shield with magnitude 8, Korengol by a magnitude 5 Shield. Borges’ spell has magnitude 5. The spell against Helera fails on her protections, but the one against Korengol is also cancelled but is thereby automatically cancelling the Orlanthi’s Shield spell (as per definition of the common magic spell). The barbarian has no other spell in effect, so Borges’ spell has no further effect. He has 2 CAs left !
Now that is pretty silly isn’t it ?
First off, does a spell specifically designed to cancel other magic need to overcome defensive magics first ? And would such a spell have the automatic cancelling effect as seen in the Countermagic Shield description ?
Suppose that were not the case.
Then Borges’ magnitude 5 spell would be compared to all of Helera’s spells. He would be able to cancel a total of 7 magnitude. She has currently these spells: Amplify at magnitude 6, Countermagic Shield at magnitude 8 (or is it 2, since the additional 6 are actually from the Amplify spell) and … does this really qualify… Wrack at magnitude 4. Thus Borges’s spell would therefore either not have any effect at all on the Countermagic Shield (if it’s mag 8 ), would then eliminate the Amplify (then has 1 magnitude cancelling available), would then not be able to cancel the Wrack (since that has mag 4), would have no effect of the Countermagic Shield (if it’s actually at mag 2).. and that’s it.
Also, if such a countering magic would not need to penetrate first, Borges would actually be able to eliminate other spells in effect on Korengol… if there were any !
I did a lot of thinking yesterday.
A countering spell does not intend to penetrate a defensive spell. Rather, it sort of looks at the whole area and the defensive spell is just the very first spell it “encounters”.
I’m still not decided on the magnitude of Helera’s Countermagic Shield. Its magnitude is 8 only because of the Amplify. There is this sentence on page 119 … counts as having been cast with Magnitude 8 for all purposes, so even though this makes Amplify even more valuable, I guess we must leave her spell at Magnitude 8 and not drop it to 2 when considering cancelling magic.
So Borges is able to neutralize 7 magnitudes, which is not enough to cancel Helera’s shield. And now what ? To “reach” the Amplify spell, Borges’ spell needs to pass through the Orlanthi’s defensive spell. If we now demand successful penetration, the spell stops right there, ‘cause Borges mag 5 does not breach Helera’s mag 8. If we do not demand penetration, then Borges will dispel Helera’s Amplify and that’s it (just as described in blue before). Quite a difference !
And Korengol’s spell would be neutralized not because of the conditions of his Shield (i.e. cancelled if incoming spell is at least equal in magnitude), but rather because Borges mag 7 is neutralizing Korengol’s mag 5 and then would actually be able to neutralize another 2 mag spells on Korengol (if there were any).
After a lot of debating in my own head, barring any reasonable comments from the community, I will go with this resolution. i.e. no need for penetration and no cancelling simply because of the penetration itself, oh, and no need for penetration to neutralize any further spells (i.e. those “behind” the defensive shield)
Seeing Korengol’s spells sizzling away, Helera casts Countermagic 2 on Jezat, rolls a 48 and succeeds. This costs 1 CA and 2 MPs, she has 3 MPs left. The spells magnitude profits from her Amplify divine magic, raising it to 8 and so she first overcomes and then actually cancels the God Learner’s Spell Resistance. She has 1 CA left.
Just like above: does a spell specifically designed to cancel other magic need to overcome defensive magics first ? Suppose Jezat had a magnitude 2 common magic spell in effect on himself. Would a non-amplified Countermagic 2 have cancelled this common magic spell or would it have been negated by the magnitude 7 Spell Resistance ?
Also - back to the described example - I’m not certain which spell is then dispelled. Both the divine version Dismiss Magic and the sorcerous version Neutralize Magic cancel a combined magnitude of spells. The common magic spell, however, only cancels a single spell.
I currently go though all spells in effect on the victim, from highest to lowest, and cancel the highest possible spell. If there is more than one spell of the same magnitude, I decide randomly.
Or do you need to know which spell you want to cancel and name it specifically ? What could an Orlanthi possibly know of God Learner magic ? Even something like “I try to cancel the defensive spells on my foe” would not be clear enough.
How do you rule these questions ?
Well, if we stay consistent with the decision above, Helera’s Amplify has been cancelled. Then she’d have cast a mere mag 2 countermagic spell which has absolutely no effect at all on Jezat’s spells.
In that case, the only reasonable thing for Helera to do would be to raise her divine Shield and make a run for it… or grab her sword and slice the frail heretics in two.
It’s Korengols’ turn and he tries to cast Alter Target. He rolls 17, so from now on Korengol may use 1 CA reactively to redirect missiles or spells of up to damage/magnitude 5.
I’m not 100% sure about the “reactively” but that’s how I do it
Seeing that his Wrack is ineffective due to the barbarians’ magical shields and not being able to do anything about it, Jezat opts to cast Wrack again, but at a higher magnitude and only at the more dangerous Korengol. He applies 3 to range (10m x POW) and 3 to magnitude (Magnitude 4). This will use 2 CAs and cost 3MPs.
Well, actually Jezat should have realized that Borges has dispelled Korengol’s Shield. If we go w a y up to the issue I had with the possible persistence of the Wrack spell against Korengol rather than its elimination, Jezat could now use the original Wrack against Korengol. Let’s just handwave that at his moment, perhaps Jezat just fumbled his perception roll ?
Borges… awh, let’s just skip Borges actions, this example should conclude someday, right ?
In fact, let’s skip to the part when Jezat completes his spell
Fourth Round
Jezat uses his first CA to complete the casting of his spell. He rolls 47 and thus succeeds, deletes those 3 MPs and applies the spell’s effects.
Korengol, however, uses his Alter Target spell. Umm… I just had to completely modify the manipulations of Jezat’s spell or Korengol wouldn’t have been able to redirect it to Borges ! Writing correct examples is truly a massive effort !
So, Borges is suddenly faced with a mag 4 Wrack aimed at his Spell Resistance of mag 7. If it were any other spell, it would just bounce off his magical shield, but we’re talking about Wrack and its special rule concerning defensive magic ! Umm, actually in this case there is that assuming the Wrack spell penetrates, so in fact we’re finished !
But I still have one question. We therefore must assume that Borges’ Spell Resistance would only be a mag 3 spell, thus allowing Jezat’s spell to penetrate. Borges would then be allowed to resist, let’s say he rolls a 11, thus failing to resist. Now Jezat’s Wrack takes effect, doing 1D8 damage… and what now ? Will Borges Spell Resistance lessen that damage by 3 (its magnitude) or not ?
