Sorcery Magnitude question

[Homunculus]

Sorry if this question may have been talked about on the forums before.

'K, me and my players got into an argument last weekend about the Sorcery rules. Are question is if the sorcery skill Manipulation (Magnitude) is used with a sorcery skill and that skill roll is successful, does the resulting spell cost Magic Points in the amount of the Magnitude or does it just cost one point to apply the Manipulation?

I feel that the manipulated sorcery spell would cost Magic Points equal to the magnitude of the spell. That is, if one character cast a spell at level 5 magnitude, then that spell would cost 5 magic points. However, the player disagrees and states that the manipulation skill for magnitude is only one spell point, as sorcery spells do not cost any magic points to cast.

If I am reading the Sorcery section correctly, I feel that it cost one magic point to apply the manipulation effect, regardless of success, but then cost the magic points equal to the level of magnitude. Otherwise, a person with sorcery could cast high level magnitude spells by only spending one magic point per cast, really disrupting the power of the game.

Please help us find the correct answer.

 

[weasel_fierce]

Sorry if this question may have been talked about on the forums before.

'K, me and my players got into an argument last weekend about the Sorcery rules. Are question is if the sorcery skill Manipulation (Magnitude) is used with a sorcery skill and that skill roll is successful, does the resulting spell cost Magic Points in the amount of the Magnitude or does it just cost one point to apply the Manipulation?

I feel that the manipulated sorcery spell would cost Magic Points equal to the magnitude of the spell. That is, if one character cast a spell at level 5 magnitude, then that spell would cost 5 magic points. However, the player disagrees and states that the manipulation skill for magnitude is only one spell point, as sorcery spells do not cost any magic points to cast.

If I am reading the Sorcery section correctly, I feel that it cost one magic point to apply the manipulation effect, regardless of success, but then cost the magic points equal to the level of magnitude. Otherwise, a person with sorcery could cast high level magnitude spells by only spending one magic point per cast, really disrupting the power of the game.

Please help us find the correct answer.

Each manipulation only costs 1 magic point, regardless skill.

 

[soltakss]

According to the RQ Companion SRD, which I haven't read for a while, it costs 1 MP to apply a Manipulation to a spell regardless of the points manipulated. So, it costs 1 MP to use Manipulation on a spell regardless of whether you are casting a Magnitude 2 spell or a Magnitude 20 spell. Similarly with Targets, it costs 1 MP to cast the spell on 2 targets or 20 targets.

So, if he casts Damage Resistance 6 on 5 Targets, this costs him 2 MPs.

In RQ3 sorcery, this would have cost him 6 MPs for the Magnitude and a further 4MPs for the extra 4 targets, costing 10MPs in total.

It all depends if you think it's reasonable for a sorcerer to be able to cast a 6 point spell on 5 people for 2 MPs. I think that's too low compared with the costs of Runemagic.

What is his skill level? If it's only 30% then he will fail to cast the spell 2 in 3 times, so this makes it unreliable in combat. But, his skill will improve so you can't use that as an excuse.

Casting modifiers apply to the spell and the Manipulations, but the modifiers are:

• Spellcaster is unable to hold runes
  Spellcaster is gagged or silenced
  Spellcaster is restrained (but still able to hold runes)
  Spellcaster is prone
  Spellcaster is on unstable ground
  Partially obscured target
  Heavily obscured target
  Totally obscured target

and they won't normally apply. Unfortunately, there isn't a "Spellcaster is being played by a berk" modifier

Fatigued characters will get modifiers to the skills. Since Armour Penalties apply to Runecasting, they also apply to Sorcery, so apply them rigidly - a PC in leather has -10% to skills, one in chain has -35% to skills. If he complains say that Sorcery needs freedom of movement to cast properly and that armour restricts his movement.

I'd use the RQ3 method of 1 MP per extra manipulation past the first free one, but a Magnitude 1 spell costs 1 MP.

Make a comparison with a similar Runemagic spell. Point out that Protection 6 costs 6 MPs but Damage Resistance 6 costs 1 MP. Also point out that the advantage of sorcery is that powerful sorcerers can cast far more powerful spells than powerful Runecasters. Say that you don't have a problem with this, as long as the costs are roughly the same.

But, you're the GM and if you think it's too low then tell him it's too low. If he doesn't like it, then tough.

 

[blitz]

I think you need to remember that the PC's opponants aren't brainless either. They will resort to ambushes, when they know how well the PC's can fight. When PC's fight a group that has a spell caster, don't they try to take the spell caster out first? Why wouldn't the bad guys do the same thing? Also, don't forget that a sorcerers magnitude is halved when facing Divine Magic. I've got a sorcerer in my group who casts magnitude 7 Damage and spell resists all the time. Course he has to make the rolls under 40% right now, but I tailor the opposition to meet the abilities of the group, and we've had some really close battles.

 

[Sinisalo]

A guy with 90% in manipulations and Flight and Palsy can fly an entire party through the air *and* disable the enemy party with palsy for 4 magic points total.

I never noticed because I'm your Orlanthi against the world sort of guy, not much interest in sorcery.

Mongoose have done it again I'm afraid.

 

[weasel_fierce]

A guy with 90% in manipulations and Flight and Palsy can fly an entire party through the air *and* disable the enemy party with palsy for 4 magic points total.

I never noticed because I'm your Orlanthi against the world sort of guy, not much interest in sorcery.

Mongoose have done it again I'm afraid.

Thats of course assuming they dont resist the spell, shoot him in the face with an arrow first, have countermagic of their own, or any of a hundred other ways to contend with it.

But if a sorcerer has 90%+ ratings in multiple manipulations as well as spells, then yeah, he's going to be extremely potent. Nothing wrong with that

 

[RosenMcStern]

So, if he casts Damage Resistance 6 on 5 Targets, this costs him 2 MPs.

...

It all depends if you think it's reasonable for a sorcerer to be able to cast a 6 point spell on 5 people for 2 MPs. I think that's too low compared with the costs of Runemagic.

...

Make a comparison with a similar Runemagic spell. Point out that Protection 6 costs 6 MPs but Damage Resistance 6 costs 1 MP.

I would choose Damage Resistance 6 over Protection 6 any time, Simon. Prot is still useful against a 7-pt. blow, whereas DR is totally pointless.

Bladesharp 4 is more powerful than Damage Boosting 4. It should cost more. Treat Wounds is ludicrous if compared with Heal, why on earth should it cost the same amount of Magic Points per damage healed?

Also point out that the advantage of sorcery is that powerful sorcerers can cast far more powerful spells than powerful Runecasters.

Another point where I do not agree. The only weakness in RuneMagic was the scarcity of spells per individual rune. With the appearance of the new Spellbook, players with a Runecasting skill of 90% or more have now access to some 10 spells per rune they have, by simply learning the new spell. Good ol' Sorcery still requires that you learn a new skill each time you want to acquire a new spell. It takes decades to train a powerful sorcerer, and years to train a powerful runecaster.

 

[Sinisalo]

It takes decades to train a powerful sorcerer

Or a year of real time and you have a player who is consistently, ridiculously out of balance to the rest of the party.

 

[Rurik]

Wow. Sorcery hate going on everywhere it seems.

So far I think MRQ Sorcery is better than RQ3 Sorcery over all as far as balance and playability (and I never felt RQ3 Sorcery was broken). It is much more limited at the high end than RQ3 though it is much more MP efficient (but then in RQ3 by the time a Sorcerer became really powerful he had access to something like a gazillion stored MP anyway).

Keep in mind for a Sorcerer to advance in Power he/she needs to improve:

1. Manipulation Skills (there are four total, all useful, though Magnitude is obviously of primary importance).

2. Each Spell as a seperate skill.

3. Persistence.

4. A language - sorcery spells require literacy.

5. Read (Order) Grimoire if using the rules for such from Cults 2.

6. Enchanting if desired

7. Summoning if desired

8. POW Gain rolls every now and then, especially if enchanting - though at 3 Improvement rolls per attempt these will be few and far between.

Now, with 3 or even a generous 4 improvement rolls per session it is looking like there aren't enough to go around. Forget about building up Resilience or Dodge or a Weapon Skill.

Now Compare to a Theist:

1. Lore (Specific) Theology.

That is about it, which leaves plenty of room for:

2. Persistence.

3. Enchanting (If desired).

4. Summoning (If desired).

5. POW Gain rolls.

Why, they could even spend a few rolls on Resilience, Dodge, or a weapon skill if needed.

Yes, high level sorcerers are powerful - they are supposed to be, and it is lot more work to get there than it is for other magic types.

 

[Deleriad]

Or a year of real time and you have a player who is consistently, ridiculously out of balance to the rest of the party.

Are you speaking from experience or just making it up?
For example, a really solid weekly campaign lasting a year might net what, 150 Improvement Rolls.
What does it take to make an uber powerful sorceror? Well you need mastery of the 5 arts and, presumably, to have mastered 5 spells. That would seem like an absolute minimum for an uber-sorceror. Assuming that he starts with 17 INT and 18 POW (to make a nice round 35% base score). 150 rolls, 10 skills, 15 rolls per skill maybe +45% to each skill. Without seeing the RQ spellbook then you have to jury rig the starting stats but lets say he manages to get about 150 percentiles in sorcery related skills during cha-gen then you can just about make mastery of 5 spells and 5 arts.
Admittedly you still need to learn to read and you are going to have to buy or plunder all your magical equipment unless you start learning some enchantments (and then having to spend a lot of your IRs on getting your POW back).
So, yes, after 50 or so gaming sessions your sorceror is pretty hard but pretty inflexible and you probably have to sacrifice some of your IRs for Persistence, Language and so on.


A warrior type probably needs to master only 5 skills rather than 10 so they can devote 30 IRs to their favourite weapons - probably around +70. Given that most warriors come out of cha gen with +55 in their main weapon then you should be looking at 120 or so in their best skills plus legendary abilities and magical support. Nothing stopping them Dedicating their POW down to 1 for a load of divine magic etc.

It seems unlikely that sorceror is unbalanced. As with any high-level campaign (which it would be) the sorceror gets to be the heavy artillery but, unless you have an illusionist or an animator, the sorceror is very inflexible.

 

[weasel_fierce]

.

It seems unlikely that sorceror is unbalanced. As with any high-level campaign (which it would be) the sorceror gets to be the heavy artillery but, unless you have an illusionist or an animator, the sorceror is very inflexible.

Not to mention, to load up your sorceror like that, he's propably left with base chances in just about everything else. Knowing how to dodge, negotiate, haggle and fight can come in handy for anyone

 

[Sinisalo]

Are you lot losing it?

Sorcery spells cost 0 points to cast.

My sorcerer has spent no experience whatsoever on his sorcery skills and has an INT of 15 and POW 15. Reasonable, no?

He has Fly at 30%
He has Manipulation (magnitude) at 30%
He has Manipulation (targets) at 30%

He and his two other adventurers want to climb over the castle walls. No problem, says the sorceror, I will fly all three of us to the top for 2 magic points. Oh no, he fails once, he fails twice, third time - bingo.

As a GM am I going to have to *always* have the sorceror interrupted by the city watch, have his grimoires stolen, etc, etc?

The only saving grace is that Fly requires concentration.

But as you can see from the poor sod who posted this question in the first place it's worse with such spells as damage resistance.

It's not my job to try and trick my players into failing but to present a realistic living world. I've defended Mongoose over RQ but this just about takes the biscuit.

When this game was published the following didn't work:
1) Combat - two rolls and incorrect examples fiasco
2) Rune Magic - cult spells that cultists can't use fiasco
3) Sorcery requires only 4 mps max to cast game balance destroying spells
4) Cults 2 - beautiful book (kudos) but...spirit spells that spiritists in the same tradition can't cast.
5) Legendary Heroes - int+wis fiasco. Come on this is the most annoying of the lot. Your writers aren't even playing the same game!!!!!


Last but not least I start my players off as experienced as allowed by the rules in Companion, the year to reach 90% was a guess but I expect it wouldn't take much longer.

 

[weasel_fierce]

Are you lot losing it?

Sorcery spells cost 0 points to cast.

My sorcerer has spent no experience whatsoever on his sorcery skills and has an INT of 15 and POW 15. Reasonable, no?

He has Fly at 30%
He has Manipulation (magnitude) at 30%
He has Manipulation (targets) at 30%

It helps reading the rules. Manipulations cost 1 MP each, regardless of whether the spell is successfull or not.

He'll spend 2 MP per attempt at doing this. Given a 30% skill, thats ranging from 2 to 6 magic points before succeeding on average. Im okay with that, that leaves him anywhere from 13 to 9 MP to use later if a fight breaks out.
Im sure the rest of the party will do fine while he spends several actions trying to cast his 30% spells.

Last but not least I start my players off as experienced as allowed by the rules in Companion, the year to reach 90% was a guess but I expect it wouldn't take much longer.

So in other words, you start the characters off at a higher power scale, then complain when they are powerfull ?

Here's the flip side though... does one of the PC's own rope and a grappling hook ? Well, they can try that untill it fails too, it will get them over the wall, and it costs NO magic points.

God damn it.. I've had it with Mongoose...Rope is totally destroying the game balance. Who the hell playtests this crap ? Am I going to have to introduce rope-devouring midgets every time there's a wall in my carefully prepared adventure ?

I cant believe this s**t

 

[Mongoose Pete]

Sorcery spells cost 0 points to cast.

It helps reading the rules. Manipulations cost 1 MP each, regardless of whether the spell is successful or not.

Yes it does!

Sinisalo is correct that if you cast a sorcery spell with no manipulations, then it costs 0 MP. A sorcery spell with no manipulations automatically defaults to having...

a Magnitude of 1
a Duration of POW in minutes
a Range of POW in meters
a Target of 1 object or person

So a sorcerer can continually cast little minor spells at no cost. Although the lack of Magnitude means the effects aren't large, they can still produce rather frustrating effects... such as sequential castings of Treat Wounds for example! A caster with Form/Set metal, wood or stone will never be held up by a lock, door or wall again. He could also Dominate a species at will, or always have a 1 point Cast Back available.

Clever players can find a myriad of ways to pervert the sorcery with this loophole.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Here's the flip side though... does one of the PC's own rope and a grappling hook ? Well, they can try that untill it fails too, it will get them over the wall, and it costs NO magic points.

A failure with a Spellcasting roll is a failure to cast the spell, so a sorceror who is trying to fly over a wall and fails is left standing on the ground - this is only a problem if he is being persued or under a tight time limit. A failure in a climb roll is a failure to successfully complete the climb - which could be much more awkward if you end up plummeting to the ground from somewhere near the top of the climb...

RQ Sorcerors have always had the potential to be extremely powerful, especially if they can also be extremely specialised. Starting out with "experienced" characters makes this more obvious, because you can leap straight to the "powerful" phase without needing to struggle through the "weak" phase where you may need to improve "sub-optimal" skills to guarantee short term survival...

 

[Deleriad]

I agree that the zero cost for sorcery spells is a potential breakpoint and it is something I've been wary of. I've usually seen it used by characters for 1point of Damage Boost and so on where it feels odd but not game breaking.

Dominate is, however, I reckon, a potential game-breaker. I was so used to this being Intensity vs MPs in RQ3 that I had mentally inserted that into the spell description. Given the lack of caveats in the spell description (i.e. nothing prevents the caster from ordering the target to kill jump off a nearby cliff etc) then 0MPs to kill something is a tad on the extreme side.

I see two mechanical issues with sorcery as written.

1. 0MP cost for spells without manipulation. This means that, essentially, you can keep trying to cast the spell without any drawback. Effectively this means that you can learn the spell at base and just take 20 seconds over attempting to cast the spell and you'll succeed. In most cases this is not game breaking but it feels extremely odd and it runs the risk of bad interactions.

2. Individual spell write-ups. Whenever I've hit a problem with MRQ magic it has nearly always been when the lack of the resistance table has required a re-write or (as in sorcery) when someone with 90% in a spell needs to be able to do what someone with a Free INT of 16+ used to. This is the good old Mongoose rush to publication issue.

I had been wavering back and forth over having sorcery spells cost 1MP (plus 1 MP for each manipulation) and the posts above have convinced me that this is a good idea. It does make sorcery less useful at the base level and doesn't solve the issue of badly designed spells but it feels more in tune with the rest of the system.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

Dominate is, however, I reckon, a potential game-breaker. I was so used to this being Intensity vs MPs in RQ3 that I had mentally inserted that into the spell description. Given the lack of caveats in the spell description (i.e. nothing prevents the caster from ordering the target to kill jump off a nearby cliff etc) then 0MPs to kill something is a tad on the extreme side.

This sort of ties in to your point about problems with individual spell write ups. Spells of this nature ought to require *some* manipulation (probably in terms of Magnitude) so that a lethal effect can never be had "for free".

I see two mechanical issues with sorcery as written.

1. 0MP cost for spells without manipulation. This means that, essentially, you can keep trying to cast the spell without any drawback. Effectively this means that you can learn the spell at base and just take 20 seconds over attempting to cast the spell and you'll succeed. In most cases this is not game breaking but it feels extremely odd and it runs the risk of bad interactions.

Maybe some penalty or restriction on retrying the same spell repeatedly? This would still allow small zero cost spells - but would prevent/discourage low level casters form continually trying low chance spells until they get a lucky roll. I'm not sure exactly how you would implement this, mind you - Maybe "If you fail to cast a sorcery spell you must wait 30-POW minutes before attempting the exact same spell again" - this would allow you to manipulate the spell to retry quicker if need be (although at a higher cost, or lesser effect than you had originally attempted). 30-POW is a finger in the air guess at a time that will inconvenience sorcerors attempting to continually "retry until we get it right" without completly crippling the unlucky failure

2. Individual spell write-ups. Whenever I've hit a problem with MRQ magic it has nearly always been when the lack of the resistance table has required a re-write or (as in sorcery) when someone with 90% in a spell needs to be able to do what someone with a Free INT of 16+ used to. This is the good old Mongoose rush to publication issue.

Problems with individual spells are both more and less annoying than problems with the whole structure. After all it is "easier" to houserule an individual spell if it proves to be troublesome than to come up with an entire new structure, but can cause problems if the problem does not come to light immediately, or where not everyone is aware of the houserule. It also brings in to question the utility of the published rules if many or most of the spells need to be house-ruled by many or most of the users

I had been wavering back and forth over having sorcery spells cost 1MP (plus 1 MP for each manipulation) and the posts above have convinced me that this is a good idea. It does make sorcery less useful at the base level and doesn't solve the issue of badly designed spells but it feels more in tune with the rest of the system.

Another thought is spells are "free" and Manipulation is 1 MP per manipulation, but there is a minimum charge of 1 MP regardless. (so effectively spells cost 1MP but your first manipulation is free) - This means the cost of casting any "manipulated" spell remains the same as with the Rules as Written, but removes the 0MP option

 

[Sinisalo]

No forget the 0 mp issue.

Manipulation(magnitude) I quote:

"It costs one Magic Point to apply this effect to a Sorcery spell, whether or not the final spell is successful and regardless of the final Magnitude of the spell"

So a very beginning adventurer with no previous experience, POW 15 and 30% in Smother, Manipulation(magnitude), and manipulation(targets) can strangle three people from 15 meters away.

This is while everyone else in the party at about 30% in everything is having trouble tying their shoelaces.

Oh distances are not measured in minutes, generally, Mongoose. Page 26 second paragraph.

 

[Rurik]

No forget the 0 mp issue.

Manipulation(magnitude) I quote:

"It costs one Magic Point to apply this effect to a Sorcery spell, whether or not the final spell is successful and regardless of the final Magnitude of the spell"

So a very beginning adventurer with no previous experience, POW 15 and 30% in Smother, Manipulation(magnitude), and manipulation(targets) can strangle three people from 15 meters away.

This is while everyone else in the party at about 30% in everything is having trouble tying their shoelaces.

Oh distances are not measured in minutes, generally, Mongoose. Page 26 second paragraph.

So lets see, he has to concentrate on the spell the whole time, and being attacked (not even hit) will break concentration unless he makes a persistence roll. While concentrating he can't cast other spells, etc.

The targets gets a resilience roll to gasp in a last breath. If he makes it fighting counts as Medium Activity, so the drowning/suffocation rules say each they won't start to suffer any ill effects from suffocation for CON rounds, so 10-11 rounds for an average joe before they need to make any resilience rolls to avoid damage. The sorcerer has to concentrate the whole time and avoid having his concentration broken while standing there chanting and gesturing.

Targets that fail the initial roll get resilience tests every round (at a cumulitive -10% penalty) and then start taking damage, so even then they reasonably have at least 2-3 rounds of action in them to try to break the Sorcerers concentration. Also, since concentration is functionally identical to casting, sorcerers draw free attacks from adjacent foes every action they spend casting (hmm, so according to the rules, 'faster' sorcerers with more actions draw more attacks while concentrating than slower sorcerers - note to self not to cast Enhance Dex before Smother).

So while still potent, it is not as dominant as you may think. It is only a reasonably sure thing against foes with low resiliences, and takes the sorcerer out of action the whole time he is suffocating his targets.

 

[Rurik]

I as a whole agree with the point that individual spells are more the problem with than with sorcery itself. Dominate is just silly having no kind of Magnitude requirements. It does not say you can order a target to kill itself, but also doesn't say you can't.

I kind of like the 0 cost idea for a simple base unmanipulated spell, allowing a sorcerer to cast little effects all day long - but spells like Dominate break the zero cost (though Dominate would be a steal even at a nominal cost of 1).

The unlimited form/set, etc are a problem. Maybe spells should have a base cost of 1, plus one for every Manipulation applied. Still, I like that a highly skilled sorcerer can cast powerful spells a few times without having to rely on stored MP. Creating MP storage is much more expensive in MRQ (namely because it is so much harder to raise POW for enchanting/binding use).

Healing should not be able to be cast over and over, limited to something like 1 point a day per wound or location (I'm partial to by location as that prevents having to track individual wounds - though by wound is a bit more realistic). If you want to heal 5 points you should have to cast a 5 point heal spell, not cast a 1 point spell five times.