Some thoughts on the Gaim...

[katadder]

still screws the minbos

 

[silashand]

Played the Gaim for the first time last week. Not sure they are actually as broken as people claim, but anyway. My question for those who keep saying they have too many fighters/crewed missiles/breaching pods, how many of the latter two do you think can actually get into contact with a ship at any given time? Since all measurements are to the stem and the missiles have to contact, using counters or any other square base the best you can ever get is *four* in contact at any one time. Using the hex bases from Mongoose and you can only get *three* in contact. Against my friend's EA fleet, his anti-fighter splatted quite a few of them and pretty regularly too. I don't see how three/four at a time is all that unbalanced in any context. Maybe that will change after a few more games with them, but I highly doubt it.

The same goes for the fighters. Using counters the max number that can get in range at any given time is (depending on your measurements) is 12-16 with a weapon that has no special attributes and a 2" range.

Anyway, JMO...

Cheers, Gary

 

[Triggy]

The problem with that is that although I played that in playtesting, many others didn't and assumed that it was to the base, not the stem. There is no official confirmation either way but technically without a specific overrule, all fighters/breaching pods should be moved to the ship's stem, not the base. You'll find that most players don't play it that way but it's not a huge majority either.

 

[wpngjstr]

As a radical proposal, how do the Giam stack up if each ship bumps up one priority level?
Granted they still have all the stuff they do now, but it pretty much halves the force size, making it easier to handle (theoretically)
While it might not solve the issues, it would at least not require major overhauls of stats or traits (or game mechanics), so would be easy to publish as FAQ

As far as adjustments go, I'd favor dropping the range down to 20" on the e-mines, and making ships more specialised (assault pods OR fighters OR E-mines)

 

[Target]

We play to the base but only 3 per arc. That came from how fighter counters we could get round a ship counter. Since a breaching pod is basically a fighter that would be 12 as well. The stem is impractical especially when you aren't meant overlap bases with fighters anyway.
I personaly think the gaim should lose the e-mines. Assault ships should like nova style ships with massed pulse weapons. Maybe give them some sort long ranged pulse type of weaponary. Allow the Gaim to manuver to shield to protect the queen ships. Drop AAF to AF for starters, no flight Computers on normal ships.
The Gaim seem to have everybit of advanced tech there is. E-mines that aren't slow loading on turrets, non boresight beam in every arc, flight computers & AAF. suprised they didn't get AJP or dual Jump drives. Oh forgot interceptors as well.
Would of prefered a new type weapon that we hadn't seen.
eg
Photon Bomb 30" Weak,TD just an idea but would of been different enough to say cool. I really don't like seeing other races with e-mines they should be Narn only.

 

[silashand]

There is no official confirmation either way but technically without a specific overrule, all fighters/breaching pods should be moved to the ship's stem, not the base. You'll find that most players don't play it that way but it's not a huge majority either.

Agreed, without a specific override then IMO moving in contact with the base and not the stem is incorrect. I have a feeling if Mongoose made it clear that it was to the stem that people would find the Gaim a *lot* less troublesome, though I'm sure folks would b*tch about the emines anyway based on what I've noticed here on the forums so far.

And herein lies the problem. In reading the various Gaim bashing threads here, people assert that the problem is the combination of the fighters/missiles and the emines. However, the majority of suggestions seem centered on nerfing/removing the emines. From a psychology standpoint, that would seem to indicate a disconnect between what people are saying and what they really mean. Personally, I think it's mostly that people don't seem to like *any* fleet with a turreted weapon that can ignore certain "favored" abilities such as stealth. I'm not saying the Gaim are or aren't unbalanced (I have not enough experience in playing this particular game to judge yet), but I'm not saying they are either. It just seems most of the vitriol I've noticed is directed at the emines when personally, I'm not sure they are the problem. I do know they seem to require different strategies to defeat than most other fleets (sorta like Wood Elves in WFB).

In any game system there are only so many combinations of weapons/defenses that you can realistically implement without getting into absurd levels of detail. As such eventually as new forces are created the most appropriate means of implementing them is a combination of existing options with maybe one or two unique features here and there. If the Gaim didn't have turreted emines, someone else eventually would have them. If they didn't have fighters then someone else would. From a background perspective do the two go together? I think perhaps they do as the Gaim concentrate on overwhelming the enemy with numbers. Their defenses would thus seem appropriately focused on how to eliminate the enemy's numbers in return. They are insects after all. If this combination makes them more effective at the tournament level, then what about as others have suggested, play at other levels?

As to the emines = Narn argument, I don't buy it. Most races have equivalents of beam weapons, etc. so why not emines? Saying they are Narn only ignores the fact that any intelligent race would evaluate them on their merits and if they found them appropriate would develop their own in response. I see no reason why the Gaim should be any different.

JMO...

Cheers, Gary

 

[Shadow Queen]

near the end they had fracking bolters nobody disclosed it at the start of the game.

 

[Methos5000]

If the Gaim didn't have turreted emines, someone else eventually would have them.

This is part of the problem though, I don't think Turreted Emines should have ever existed, for anyone, not even the Narn, who have had Emines much longer then anyone else, if anyone could have figured out a Turreted Emine system it would have been them.

Emines ignore far to many defenses and making them Turreted is completely over the top. They are challanging enough to face when they are only front arc'd.

If the Gaim Emines were fixed to the front arc you wouldn't have near as many complaints about the Emines, though I do agree with others that there seem to be far to many Emines in the game now.

 

[thehod]

I still see the emine mechanic itself easily abusable and trumps about 3/4 of the defenses of most other fleets. The worse is dropping an emine to snipe enemy squadrons in dogfights. Its almost going back to the days of Novacannon spam and while the emines/novacannons reload, you simply move forward and cleanup a battered fleet that has been peppered by explosions.

 

[Prophaniti]

Hello everyone (first post here)

I've played about five games of ACtA so far. My opponent tonight was Gaim 6pt raid. Suffice to say I lost (it was my opponent's first game ever)

My fleet was: Omega, Avenger, Hyperion, 4 Olympus with anti-fighter missiles. All fighters were Auroras.

His was skirmish and raid queens, the carrier, 2 assault ships 1 gunship and 4 scouts.

I ran into all the problems mentioned so far. Emined at range. Too many fighters for missiles, dogfighters, AF and main weapons combined. Then boarded by pods. Much of my fire was then negated by high hull values and large amounts of interceptors.

I can't see where this fleet has a weakness, apart from long-range, high-damage beams (which everyone is vulnerable to anyway).

At least with experienced players saying this, I don't feel like the complaining new-guy who just doesn't know how to use their fleet. Which I don't as it happens, but that's just lack of experience.

 

[CaptBavo]

There is no doubt the Gaim are broken, Prophaniti.

I played them with a friend of mine who had never played them and I took my normal fleet(Dilgar). Needless to say I was slaughtered(and I was rolling pretty well too)

We also messed around with doubling the Gaim's opponents FAP. It was me again(Dilgar) and another guy from our group(played Vree) with 10 pts of Raid vs. the Gaim 5 pts of Raid. The Gaim still won by victory points.

Needless to say, thats why our group has banned them until they are fixed.

 

[silashand]

and I took my normal fleet(Dilgar).

Personally, I contend that this is probably a big reason why you lost. If you knew the fleet you were facing had certain abilities, why would you not tailor your own fleet to compensate? Saying that you shouldn't have to do so is misguided IMO. Certain armies/fleets will always need tailoring against regardless whether someone thinks they shouldn't have to do so. That's the nature of the game.

As for emines ignoring too many defenses, personally I don't particularly think so given the preponderence of certain fleets that can move willy-nilly about the board, ignore half the damage thrown at them and not be targeted themselves. Sorry if my sympathy meter doesn't quite go that low if that's what people are crying about.

Also, for those saying the Gaim emines are too long-ranged, as far as I can tell only *one* ship (the Queen battleship) has emines at 40". Everything else in the fleet is 30" or 20". If I had to pick something I think may be wrong with the Gaim it's simply that you can take only Queen ships if you prefer and I don't think that's appropriate given the background. Personally, I think the Gaim should have to take at least one other non-Queen ship for every queen in the fleet if for no other reason than the background says they value their Queens highly and take great pains to protect them. Sending a fleet of nothing but Queens into battle seems a bit too risky IYAM. Also, by forcing the Gaim player to take non-Queen ships you would 1) minimize the long range emines which players keep b*tching about, 2) force the adoption of some of the assault ships which don't actually have much in the way of emines, favoring the other weapon types and 3) because there aren't as many Queens, except for the carrier it would minimize the fighter/missile swarm as well. Realistically, if people are complaining about the carrier, it's a hull 4 craft with little defenses that will pretty much die to a strong (solar) wind given most of the weapons out there.

Like I said, force Gaim players to take things other than Queen ships and I think you will see a vastly different fleet than the super-optimized one people seem to be complaining about now.

Cheers, Gary

 

[wkehrman]

and I took my normal fleet(Dilgar).

Personally, I contend that this is probably a big reason why you lost. If you knew the fleet you were facing had certain abilities, why would you not tailor your own fleet to compensate?

Ohhh, I hear that can opener again....

Certainly IRL a naval commander should be given the weapons for dealing with a particular situation (defending sea lanes, amphibious assaults, etc.), many ACtA fleets are built as a general purpose force for tournaments. The force I bring against your Gaim will be different than the force I bring against David's ISA or dag'karlove's Narn or Colin's Vree, etc. etc. etc. In a tournament most folks can't take several lists.

Also, as I pointed out the other night, I don't think having an all Queen fleet is quite the terror it's been made out to be. The benefits of having queens boils down to that Crew Quality Check. That seemed to be the only effect on the game, you being able to repair quickly. Losing all of the queens would, in theory, force a surrender.

My fleet was not the best mix against the Gaim, but the alternative was not terribly good against the ISA, so I'm still looking....

 

[silashand]

My fleet was not the best mix against the Gaim, but the alternative was not terribly good against the ISA, so I'm still looking....

And I brought simply a mix of ships to see what they could do. Personally, I like the assault ships myself. Not many fighters, but the beam weapons are cool. Never tried the breaching pods though.

I think you may be wrong on the all queen fleet though. The vast majority of my fighters in our game came from those two ships. The rest of the fleet had very little in the way of fighters, though the assault ships do have breaching pods out the butt. Had I been able to take nothing but the raid level queens instead, I probably could've pumped out a lot more fighters and with only a little loss in emine range. I wouldn't do that as I prefer a fleet more representative of the background, but I'm pretty certain that's the kind of build most people are complaining about.

Besides, as I mentioned above, I think clarifying that breaching pods/crewed missiles must contact the stem, not the base would go a *long* way to mitigating the offensive potential of the Gaim. It seems a lot of folks are allowing 9-12 of them in at one time when if you use the stem the max you will get is 4. I *really* think that would tone them down to reasonable levels regardless the emine hate that seems prevalent here.

Either that or reduce the number of fighters/breaching pods available by something like 1/3.

Cheers, Gary

PS. Love your sigblock... ;-)

 

[CaptBavo]

and I took my normal fleet(Dilgar).

Personally, I contend that this is probably a big reason why you lost. If you knew the fleet you were facing had certain abilities, why would you not tailor your own fleet to compensate? Saying that you shouldn't have to do so is misguided IMO. Certain armies/fleets will always need tailoring against regardless whether someone thinks they shouldn't have to do so. That's the nature of the game.

As for emines ignoring too many defenses, personally I don't particularly think so given the preponderence of certain fleets that can move willy-nilly about the board, ignore half the damage thrown at them and not be targeted themselves. Sorry if my sympathy meter doesn't quite go that low if that's what people are crying about.

OK, first off what I meant by my normal fleet is Dilgar, not that I took a generic fleet selection not knowing I was facing them. My fleet selection was specifically tailored for fighting them and I was told exactly what my friend was taking with his fleet. Besides these factors, he also let me place terrain pretty much anywhere I wanted. He also only had ONE queen.

Its not just me in my group that can't win against them, everyone in my group after playing a few times agree(and yes they tailored their fleets to fight them), hence why we banned them. They are no fun to play and certainly no fun to play against.

It usually takes something pretty bad for me to say its broken. In first edition, I had some issues with the Prefect. However I never claimed it was broke, a little over powered but not broke(at least it was beatable)

Also, for those saying the Gaim emines are too long-ranged, as far as I can tell only *one* ship (the Queen battleship) has emines at 40". Everything else in the fleet is 30" or 20".

Actually three of the six Gaim ships with e-mines do have a 40 inch range.

 

[Methos5000]

A quick note on the whole fighters/breaching pods contact issue. Granted while the crewed missiles state contact, under the description of breaching pods on page 16 of the rules clearly states base contact:

Breaching Pod: These are small craft designed to carry troops to enemy ships and space stations and force an entry straight through the hull. The Breaching Pod counts as if it had the Fighter trait. However, it will automatically lose any Dogfight and cannot be used in planetary assaults (see page 39). Each Breaching Pod carries one Troop. If the Breaching Pod moves into base contact with a ship or space station, the Troop it carries will fight first in the boarding action (see page 42).
Breaching Pods can not be used as interceptors, unlike fighters. (emphasis by me)

So while fighters might be limited to 3-4 under the rules of stem contact the breaching pods definitely do not have that restriction, so the superior Gaim troops can land several breaching pods per ship if they can get in range (which is easier then you think with speed 8 breaching pods)

 

[silashand]

Actually three of the six Gaim ships with e-mines do have a 40 inch range.

I sit corrected ;-). However, given that the fastest Gaim ship has only a 9 movement and most have around a 6 (at least one has a 5), I would think faster fleets should be able to close with them and dish out a decent amount of damage, assuming terrain is used appropriately. As I mentioned above, if you are letting the Gaim player get in 9-12 crewed missiles and the same in breaching pods whenever they attack then yes, I can see them as being overpowering. However, that's not how I see the rule as being worded and not how I play them. Allow only 4 to get in at any one time and I think you'll find that most ships out there won't take a lot in damage from the missiles or the pods at any given time, thus providing ample time for other ships to close in and kill the big ships. Sure, the emines are decent, but assuming the above they are the *only* weapon the fleet has and as long as they remain so slow then they almost invariably have to have long range weaponry to compensate. Otherwise they will simply be outmanouvered and outgunned at every turn. I seriously think people are overreacting to the Gaim personally, but to each their own. I guess if enough people b*tch about it then they will invariably be changed even if they don't need it. JMO...

Cheers, Gary

 

[CaptBavo]

I agree with you on the four fighters/breaching pods on a ship at any given time would help, and would have made a difference in the games vs. the Gaim. However with no official confirmation on stem vs. base, the four per ship is more a house ruling. We will have to try the stem method out, at casual thought it definitely would help.

 

[Romu]

The base contact thing is kind of ridiculous since you can choose what kind of base you use on any ship

 

[silashand]

The base contact thing is kind of ridiculous since you can choose what kind of base you use on any ship

Agreed. That's why I think it should be stem, not base. Unless Mongoose comes out and specifies standard base sizes anyway.

Given some players I've met over the years and their tendencies, even with the stem method I can see them devising pie shaped bases for their fighters so they can still get a dozen or more in contact :roll: ...

Cheers, Gary