Some thoughts on the Gaim...

[Centauri_Admiral]

I think there should be a change in the emine mechanic itself because it simply is too good for what it does. If Emines can scatter that would be nice as of this moment they are perhaps the most precise weapons able to snipe fighters in dogfights and other ships.

I agree either drop the emines by 1/2 or make them slow loading. But my other change would be for every queen ship, you need to have 2 non queen ships. The Shuuka gunship is undergunned compared to the queen light cruiser but it would be nice if it was made into a beam boat like the assault ship is. I also agree on dropping AAF and FLight Computers.

can we specify change the e-mine mechanic of Gaim please, the narn ones are ok!

ARE THEY BUGGERY!!!!!

 

[Shadow Queen]

should of brought some bug spray with me.

 

[H]

nothing wrong with narn e-mines at all, they are what they are supposed to be, heavy hitting nuclearish explosions in space. they are slow loading, fire forward only, and on several ships only fire once. they break formations, and kill smaller ships, and only hugely concentrated numbers would do much to a larger vessel.

 

[Da Boss]

kinda agree there

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

nothing wrong with narn e-mines at all, they are what they are supposed to be, heavy hitting nuclearish explosions in space. they are slow loading, fire forward only, and on several ships only fire once. they break formations, and kill smaller ships, and only hugely concentrated numbers would do much to a larger vessel.

Well then maybe its just the people I play against, if the level of gamesman ship this weekend was anything to go by, its obvious to me now that the club environment I come from is exceptionally competitive and perhaps over aggressive.

Any narn fleet I could hope to come against in 2nd ed, at say 5 points battle following the 8 ship rule at mongoose, will include a G'Vrahn, 2 Dag'Kar, 2 G'Kariths and probably 2 Var'nic to support the G'Vrahn, or possibly another 2 Dag'Kar.

Now for any fleet that DOESN'T have a weapon above range 20, with at least speed 10, you AREN'T going to be able to return fire on above said fleet in one turn, unless you all power to engines.

That means for at least the first turn, and possibly the second, that narn fleet can expect to recieve little to no return fire at all. So first turn that fleet can kick out 3 narn emines, plus 2 "normal" ones, even against hi-hull ships that WILL sting. Go with the 4 dag'kar and thats bumped up to 5 narn emines. Now unless you move ships individually, and spread your battle line perilously thin, those emines will cop mulitple targets doing ap triple damage. I've seen entire squadrons of demos completely wiped out before firing, because its like driving into a brick wall at 100ph, and your telling me theres nothing wrong with that? And thats just in the bloody first turn! By the time the majority of a given fleet will have closed to a decent range, you may have done niggling damage, bar lucky criticals of course, so you can look forward to another load of that before you are sufficiently close to start trading knock down blows, if theres anything left at all by the time you get there.

While I agree with the point that on several narn ships they are one shot, which I think is okay, how many narn players, that know what they are doing are going to take them? Especially when they can take G'Karith for fighter clearance, leaving choice vessels like the G'Vrahn and Dag"kar to pick on juicy captiol ship targets.

No I'm sorry, but the narn emines on two ships in particular, need to be addressed. On every other point I will conceed the arguement.

 

[Shadow Queen]

with the gaim all they need to do is sit back and launch wave apon wave of fighters ...not good.

 

[H]

nothing wrong with narn e-mines at all, they are what they are supposed to be, heavy hitting nuclearish explosions in space. they are slow loading, fire forward only, and on several ships only fire once. they break formations, and kill smaller ships, and only hugely concentrated numbers would do much to a larger vessel.

Well then maybe its just the people I play against, if the level of gamesman ship this weekend was anything to go by, its obvious to me now that the club environment I come from is exceptionally competitive and perhaps over aggressive.

Any narn fleet I could hope to come against in 2nd ed, at say 5 points battle following the 8 ship rule at mongoose, will include a G'Vrahn, 2 Dag'Kar, 2 G'Kariths and probably 2 Var'nic to support the G'Vrahn, or possibly another 2 Dag'Kar.

Now for any fleet that DOESN'T have a weapon above range 20, with at least speed 10, you AREN'T going to be able to return fire on above said fleet in one turn, unless you all power to engines.

That means for at least the first turn, and possibly the second, that narn fleet can expect to recieve little to no return fire at all. So first turn that fleet can kick out 3 narn emines, plus 2 "normal" ones, even against hi-hull ships that WILL sting. Go with the 4 dag'kar and thats bumped up to 5 narn emines. Now unless you move ships individually, and spread your battle line perilously thin, those emines will cop mulitple targets doing ap triple damage. I've seen entire squadrons of demos completely wiped out before firing, because its like driving into a brick wall at 100ph, and your telling me theres nothing wrong with that? And thats just in the bloody first turn! By the time the majority of a given fleet will have closed to a decent range, you may have done niggling damage, bar lucky criticals of course, so you can look forward to another load of that before you are sufficiently close to start trading knock down blows, if theres anything left at all by the time you get there.

While I agree with the point that on several narn ships they are one shot, which I think is okay, how many narn players, that know what they are doing are going to take them? Especially when they can take G'Karith for fighter clearance, leaving choice vessels like the G'Vrahn and Dag"kar to pick on juicy captiol ship targets.

No I'm sorry, but the narn emines on two ships in particular, need to be addressed. On every other point I will conceed the arguement.

well, i have to say, take the time to sit on the receiving end of a demos squadron, they can kill a dag kar before it fires, they have the speed and range to do so. the G'Vrahn i have said could do with one shot e-mines, the dag'kar on the other hand, will die if something closes on it and fires!

 

[Davesaint]

What were you opinions on the adjustments Katadder and myself suggested?

I don't think that they are fundementally enough. The problem with them is how the e-mine system and the defenses against the missle work. The fact of the matter is as long as you have a race who's primary ship weapon is an e-mine, that has a secondary ship killer in scads of fighters, how much you reduced them by will be largely irrelevant. As long as you can sweep your opponents fighters with the e-mines, the crewed missle is broken.


Dave

 

[Da Boss]

CA - Do many of your games use Terrain - I know Emines are a pain even with terrain put it does make games much more fun - which ever fleet I am playing. Its one of the things I don't enjoy at MGP tournaments - there is usally quite bare tables - be nice to have a couple with lots, one or two with none and most with some...........

I have also seen a triple damage emine bounce off my CBD Demos squadron.............

 

[Da Boss]

What were you opinions on the adjustments Katadder and myself suggested?

I don't think that they are fundementally enough. The problem with them is how the e-mine system and the defenses against the missle work. The fact of the matter is as long as you have a race who's primary ship weapon is an e-mine, that has a secondary ship killer in scads of fighters, how much you reduced them by will be largely irrelevant. As long as you can sweep your opponents fighters with the e-mines, the crewed missle is broken.
Dave

I wondered about changing the emines to Nuclear missiles - long range nasty but interceptable?

 

[Shadow Queen]

What were you opinions on the adjustments Katadder and myself suggested?

I don't think that they are fundementally enough. The problem with them is how the e-mine system and the defenses against the missle work. The fact of the matter is as long as you have a race who's primary ship weapon is an e-mine, that has a secondary ship killer in scads of fighters, how much you reduced them by will be largely irrelevant. As long as you can sweep your opponents fighters with the e-mines, the crewed missle is broken.
Dave

I wondered about changing the emines to Nuclear missiles - long range nasty but interceptable?

dont ask me :wink:

 

[Triggy]

we came up with a couple of possible fixes the night before in the pub. one was make the e-mines forward fire only.
2nd was obviously remove the flight computer.
3rd had to be fixes to the only 2 really broken ships which are the skirmish queen (half its firepower, less fighters) and the fleet carrier which i guess could go down to one 2AD e-mine if keeping its fighter complement, i would also remove fleet carrier from this ship, just let it launch them in large amounts but no recovery.
also max range of 30" so they dont outrange people and have to advance if they want to fire and launch fighters.

I'm pretty much in agreement with most of this although have other suggestions to bounce as well. I would make the photon bombs be able to be dodged - this gives ISA and Raider fleets a realistic chance and makes fighter choices more relevant. Forward arc and a capped 30" range would also be good.

Dropping Fleet Carrier from the Stuteeka is something I think that's essential and in itself would probably be enough for the carrier (having the knock on effect of not giving the fighters +1 dogfight - something that if enemy fighters get involved with dodgable photon bombs would force the Gaim player into a few tactical decisions).

The Skirmish Queen could do with grouping all of its AD into a single weapon, reduce the AD to 4 and reduce the Breaching Pods to 2

The Skrunnka Assault Ship could also do with dropping the Breaching Pods down by half as with the Gaim boarding rules this is nasty.

Finally, removing AAF (at least reducing it to AF anyway) and Flight Computers would be a nice touch.

 

[Centauri_Admiral]

CA - Do many of your games use Terrain - I know Emines are a pain even with terrain put it does make games much more fun - which ever fleet I am playing. Its one of the things I don't enjoy at MGP tournaments - there is usally quite bare tables - be nice to have a couple with lots, one or two with none and most with some...........

I have also seen a triple damage emine bounce off my CBD Demos squadron.............

Yes chap, they do, but as I said, I don't know whether its just the way our guys play, but the narn guys are clever enough do deploy to make the terrain as much of an advantage to them, as it is to you.

 

[Shadow Queen]

nice to of meet you Triggy

 

[Triggy]

What were you opinions on the adjustments Katadder and myself suggested?

I don't think that they are fundementally enough. The problem with them is how the e-mine system and the defenses against the missle work. The fact of the matter is as long as you have a race who's primary ship weapon is an e-mine, that has a secondary ship killer in scads of fighters, how much you reduced them by will be largely irrelevant. As long as you can sweep your opponents fighters with the e-mines, the crewed missle is broken.


Dave

Yep, that's why I added making them dodgable to my suggestions - this removes a lot of the anti-fighter element (so long as you reduce the AD on the Stuteeka Carrier and Shuuka Queen). This would save fighters and the ISA, the Minbari probably aren't too badly off given that the Stealth reduction from e-mines doesn't actually help the Gaim!

nice to of meet you Triggy

You too

 

[Da Boss]

I'll let Ken answer for the Minbari on that one

 

[Ripple]

The Drazi would be much appreciative of dodge enabled e-mines....

Ripple

 

[Triggy]

The Drazi would be much appreciative of dodge enabled e-mines....

Ripple

True, although the suggestion is only for Photon Bombs, not the e-mine trait

 

[katadder]

basically create a new weapon trait - explosive or something. has the area effect of an e-mine but is like a ship exploding which can be dodged

 

[Triggy]

basically create a new weapon trait - explosive or something. has the area effect of an e-mine but is like a ship exploding which can be dodged

Something like that It would need to be tested but it certainly addresses two of the main photon bomb concerns: fighter clearance (against a fleet that relies on fighters) and ISA/Drazi having no chance vs Gaim.