Some thoughts on the Gaim...
- Thread starter Jim?
- Start date
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
katadder said:
Rubbish. In that situation they still outnumber my fighters enough to beat most of them, and if I have my fighters out at the start they die in turn one as the Gaim laugh while firing e-mines. They have enough to make any fighter screen irrelevent. Once they've slagged all my fighters what's to stop them ramming the carriers to death with the 200 crewed missiles they have?
Did you actually read anything I said or are you just arguing against me for laughs? Take the e-mines away and you can at least try to stop their crewed missiles with a fighter screen. I see the carrier is at raid, I was misinformed, but it still has a war-level carrier's complement aboard. I get 8 fighters on a raid carrier. Dilgar get 10. EA early/3rd age get 8. Better fighters, yes, but 4-1 odds are not favourable for any fighter.
yes I did, you said remove the e-mines and halve their fighters, etc etc i am going on the assumption of removed e-mines.
so to get equal dogfight v your raziks if you take as many fleet carriers he has to devote 150 fighters to get 3v1 and make it dogfight +4 on both sides.
and thats him devoting 3/4 of his main weapon. I dont think you read what I said and your wanting to remove everything is a huge kneejerk reaction to playing them.
if his e-mines are replaced with pulse as you wanted then your ships have better firepower too and it doesnt die after one shot.
so to get equal dogfight v your raziks if you take as many fleet carriers he has to devote 150 fighters to get 3v1 and make it dogfight +4 on both sides.
and thats him devoting 3/4 of his main weapon. I dont think you read what I said and your wanting to remove everything is a huge kneejerk reaction to playing them.
if his e-mines are replaced with pulse as you wanted then your ships have better firepower too and it doesnt die after one shot.
Thoughts: I think they need to be changed - not nerfed but changed to make them
A more fun to play, B more fun to play against
1. loose the flight computers - it goes aginst the fluff and the stlye of the fleet. I don't think there is anyone who really thinks they need it.
2. loose the AAF - again why do they have it?
3. Give them a War level ship (guessing that that may come anyway after the campaign - I made one up in my supplement - sure someone can do it better.................)
4. Clarify the rules on how many breeching pods etc can engage a ship (6?)
5. make the Shuuka a non Queen ship,
6. Weapons - do they need emines at the extreme range - I would prefer either shorter range emines (say max 20) (keeping turret) or make them nuclear missiles at long range. It does detract from the "specialness" of the Narn weapon by giving the Gaim them throughout their fleet.
7. Given them some more short range rapid fire guns in exchange esp on the larger ships.
8. Either make the Dilgar suicide fighters non inteceptable or make the Gaim ones Interceptable - lets have some consistancy - same with the recovery roll. My preference would be neither can be intercepted or recovered.
9. Perhaps give them a "protect the Queen" special order – If a Queen ship is attacked and his ship is within 4” and within range of the enemy attacking, they can force the enemy to attack his ship instead – this is done before any dice are rolled. ?? CQ check?
There is a very intersting and evocative fleet in there somewhere - let try and find it.
I will be generous and say that perhaps Ben wanted to show how broken the fleet was so it would be changed (rather than just choosing the cheesiest least fun one that is possible in the whole game)
A more fun to play, B more fun to play against
1. loose the flight computers - it goes aginst the fluff and the stlye of the fleet. I don't think there is anyone who really thinks they need it.
2. loose the AAF - again why do they have it?
3. Give them a War level ship (guessing that that may come anyway after the campaign - I made one up in my supplement - sure someone can do it better.................)
4. Clarify the rules on how many breeching pods etc can engage a ship (6?)
5. make the Shuuka a non Queen ship,
6. Weapons - do they need emines at the extreme range - I would prefer either shorter range emines (say max 20) (keeping turret) or make them nuclear missiles at long range. It does detract from the "specialness" of the Narn weapon by giving the Gaim them throughout their fleet.
7. Given them some more short range rapid fire guns in exchange esp on the larger ships.
8. Either make the Dilgar suicide fighters non inteceptable or make the Gaim ones Interceptable - lets have some consistancy - same with the recovery roll. My preference would be neither can be intercepted or recovered.
9. Perhaps give them a "protect the Queen" special order – If a Queen ship is attacked and his ship is within 4” and within range of the enemy attacking, they can force the enemy to attack his ship instead – this is done before any dice are rolled. ?? CQ check?
There is a very intersting and evocative fleet in there somewhere - let try and find it.
I will be generous and say that perhaps Ben wanted to show how broken the fleet was so it would be changed (rather than just choosing the cheesiest least fun one that is possible in the whole game)
1. loose the flight computers - it goes aginst the fluff and the stlye of the fleet. I don't think there is anyone who really thinks they need it.
sure why not
2. loose the AAF - again why do they have it?
again why not
3. Give them a War level ship (guessing that that may come anyway after the campaign - I made one up in my supplement - sure someone can do it better.................)
i agree, and they probably will
4. Clarify the rules on how many breeching pods etc can engage a ship (6?)
yep that could work.
5. make the Shuuka a non Queen ship,
no to this as they need a low level queen for campaigns, however lowering its weapons by 2 and decreasing the fighters etc would work better.
6. Weapons - do they need emines at the extreme range - I would prefer either shorter range emines (say max 20) (keeping turret) or make them nuclear missiles at long range. It does detract from the "specialness" of the Narn weapon by giving the Gaim them throughout their fleet.
i would still leave them range 30 as they are fairly slow and range 30 is what most races can reach out and touch in revenge. would also make them forward arc only not turreted
7. Given them some more short range rapid fire guns in exchange esp on the larger ships.
this is a possibility
8. Either make the Dilgar suicide fighters non inteceptable or make the Gaim ones Interceptable - lets have some consistancy - same with the recovery roll. My preference would be neither can be intercepted or recovered.
agree
9. Perhaps give them a "protect the Queen" special order – If a Queen ship is attacked and his ship is within 4” and within range of the enemy attacking, they can force the enemy to attack his ship instead – this is done before any dice are rolled. ?? CQ check?
could be interesting, the old manouvre to shield them rule basically.
sure why not
2. loose the AAF - again why do they have it?
again why not
3. Give them a War level ship (guessing that that may come anyway after the campaign - I made one up in my supplement - sure someone can do it better.................)
i agree, and they probably will
4. Clarify the rules on how many breeching pods etc can engage a ship (6?)
yep that could work.
5. make the Shuuka a non Queen ship,
no to this as they need a low level queen for campaigns, however lowering its weapons by 2 and decreasing the fighters etc would work better.
6. Weapons - do they need emines at the extreme range - I would prefer either shorter range emines (say max 20) (keeping turret) or make them nuclear missiles at long range. It does detract from the "specialness" of the Narn weapon by giving the Gaim them throughout their fleet.
i would still leave them range 30 as they are fairly slow and range 30 is what most races can reach out and touch in revenge. would also make them forward arc only not turreted
7. Given them some more short range rapid fire guns in exchange esp on the larger ships.
this is a possibility
8. Either make the Dilgar suicide fighters non inteceptable or make the Gaim ones Interceptable - lets have some consistancy - same with the recovery roll. My preference would be neither can be intercepted or recovered.
agree
9. Perhaps give them a "protect the Queen" special order – If a Queen ship is attacked and his ship is within 4” and within range of the enemy attacking, they can force the enemy to attack his ship instead – this is done before any dice are rolled. ?? CQ check?
could be interesting, the old manouvre to shield them rule basically.
Everyone seems to agree the advanced traits need to go.
Everyone agrees there is something wrong with the emine layout.
There seem to be differences of opinion on the fighter numbers.
How about the breeching pods? This was where our group ran into issues with them. We found a few ways to deal with the fighter swarms, but couldn't deal with both them and the pods... especially not when the escorts just died to emine fire.
Ripple
Everyone agrees there is something wrong with the emine layout.
There seem to be differences of opinion on the fighter numbers.
How about the breeching pods? This was where our group ran into issues with them. We found a few ways to deal with the fighter swarms, but couldn't deal with both them and the pods... especially not when the escorts just died to emine fire.
Ripple
well the pods can die to secondaries or even main guns. using drakh at least thats what i had planned to do if facing the pods, they only have a dodge of 5+ and hull 5 so they do go down. in fact whenever i used the gaim at my local club people shot at the pods rather than the fighters.
Shadow Queen
Mongoose
whoever vs. gaim can have a nuke ... there that sounds fair
Centauri_Admiral
Mongoose
katadder said:
I agree with katadder here on this one; those suggestions would still make the Gaim a viable fleet to use, but also mean that most races would have options to allow a defeat possible.
The game LDTD and I played, was certainly a baptism of fire, in the end we ran out of time . . but! I had weathered the storm of my share of the fighters/missiles, and still had two morgrath, 2 demos, 2 dargan and 1 liati and now within firing range of the carriers. With a little more time I think the outcome may have started to go a little different, but we'll never know, as ben himself said . . . I was the first person that had actually inflicted damage on even one of his carriers in that weekend.
But the more I listened to what he had to say about the fleet, the more I realised that the fleet doesn't have many/ if any weaknesses at all. Katadders suggestions would mean that the 5 point battle fleet used would have considerably less fighters/missiles, and a diminished capacity to launch them, meaning the chances of being able to effectively stop said screen would be greater. Correct?
Having its emine forward facing only, would force the gaim player into a determined effort to hit you hard before you get behind him, with the type of fleet I had if I could make it to the aft or sides it would have been curtains. The hi-hull/low hull, interceptors and hit points, would have mattered so much. So the skirmish carrier has 50 hits, at hull 4 with interceptors, I've got beams, and a bucket load of double damage twin-linked dice to throw at you, so bring that hull 4 a little closer please. :evil:
If MGP followed katadder "style" changes, I'd be very happy with it.
katadder said:
Always the best place to work out a new fleet list :lol:
However as on the night itself and on here - we are basically thinking along the same lines -
question becomes is anyone listening from the powers at be........... :?:
we sort of had agreement re other things on here but no effect.................
I think there should be a change in the emine mechanic itself because it simply is too good for what it does. If Emines can scatter that would be nice as of this moment they are perhaps the most precise weapons able to snipe fighters in dogfights and other ships.
I agree either drop the emines by 1/2 or make them slow loading. But my other change would be for every queen ship, you need to have 2 non queen ships. The Shuuka gunship is undergunned compared to the queen light cruiser but it would be nice if it was made into a beam boat like the assault ship is. I also agree on dropping AAF and FLight Computers.
I agree either drop the emines by 1/2 or make them slow loading. But my other change would be for every queen ship, you need to have 2 non queen ships. The Shuuka gunship is undergunned compared to the queen light cruiser but it would be nice if it was made into a beam boat like the assault ship is. I also agree on dropping AAF and FLight Computers.
Shadow Queen
Mongoose
If only I had a nuke on Batain.....
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