Some thoughts on the Gaim...

Jim?

Mongoose
After having seen the Gaim win the last Mongoose Tourney and defeat all comers at the campaign weekend (along with being a non-fun fleet to play against, according to all players that I talked to) I have a few thoughts about them that I'd like to put down in writing before they fade away.

Looking at the fleet, they have some obvious advantages against most opponents... a huge number of crewed missile fighters, horribly powerful assault troops, enough emines to wipe out any fighter screen, ships that are generally on the top end of their damage rating for their priority with either high hull values or buckets of interceptors and so many breaching pods that if you do finally manage to close, your ship *will* end up being boarded and captured unless you flee off the table.

To counteract this, they seem to have been balanced to have no short range secondaries and are mostly quite slow. However, these disadvantages are compensated for more than adequately by their extremely long range, turreted emines (meaning speed is not an issue for them) and swarms of breaching pods meaning that secondary weapons from other fleets can't be deployed against them without losing the ship in question.

The only fleets that I can see beating them are my friend TGT's tweaked Minbari fleet (Ashintas + a Veshatan) that has so much AAF fire, twin linked fusion cannon and a long range neutron laser on tough hulls (battle and war level damage at raid and battle level priority respectively) so that they can weather the emine storm for a long time before dying, shadows and vorlons (who have to blat a queen or two then jump out to avoid death and win a marginal victory on VPs). Drakh may possibly have a slim chance, but the number of precise missiles and breaching pods will most probably win through in the end. A Narn G'Vrahn in a 5pt raid may do enough to kill a queen or two before jumping out, but against most other fleets it will suffer ( a single big ship with minimal support isn't a good selection in a small game, especiallly when all of it's worthwhile firepower is in it's front arc)

Everyone else has to stay at range, meaning that all short ranged fleets or those that only have interceptable long range weapons cannot possibly win. At all. No one else's escorts are tough enough to take the emine hits (even a Halik will die in 1-2 turns from massed emine bombardment), and even if they do live for a turn or two, they only have normal anti-fighter that's insufficient to take out breaching pods quickly (that are speed 8.) so will be boarded and captured very quickly.

Here's a quick rundown on how I see the fleets I play fighting the Gaim:-

EA Early Era:

Massed Saggs may be OK, chucking out loads of missiles against a queen to hopefully knock down her interceptors, then bugging out off the table before they get boarded. Nothing else in the list will work (escort Artemis is too fragile, and will die early if the Gaim player has any idea of what he's up to) the Orestes will die to assault ships, breaching pods or massed fighter wings. It's also lumbering, boresighted and with a low innate initiative vs. the Gaim's +3 bonus, so after the Gaim kill all of it's support ships after 1-2 turns, it won't be firing at anything anyway.

Hyperions are too short range, and will be boarded, so I can't take them. Same with Artemis, Olympus, and everything else in the fleet that relies on interceptors to survive, and all of the Gaim weapons ignore them. Nova's have no AF at all, and 1 Troop. Breaching Pod fodder.

3rd Age EA

No Saggs, so you have to rely on Olympus' for missiles (too short on dice to blow through interceptors) and the only long range ships are the Omega and Warlock (which needs init sinks to boresight, so won't be firing it's laser after the third turn, at which point the assault ships will be close enough to board it). No escort in the fleet. Warlock too big to take at 5 Raid.

Crusade EA

Would be alright if they had an escort, as you could sit at range with Apollos and wittle slowly away at the Gaim, and hope to kill something eventually. Unfortunately, you don't have an escort so you're just going to get boarded. Next!

Narn

Yay for Emines! Unfortunately, you can't fire them every turn (except the pulsar mines) and you can't cover many arcs with them. If the G'Karith had 4 banks of 2 emines instead of 1 of 8, it might be useful, as it could quickly clear fighters. As it stands, Narn fleets are woeful against any sort of serious fighter fleet now that fighters launch in the end phase, as you can't catch more than a couple in one emine burst anyway if your opponent knows what he's up to.

G'Quans don't have enough laser dice to be much use against the Gaim. Also, like the rest of the fleet it's got no antifighter worth having. Dag'Kars only have hull 4, so will die quickly to emine barrages. The Gaim emines also outrange them.

The Bin'Tak may be OK for a turn or two, it's secondaries should actually get a shot off before it's boarded by the speed 8 breaching pods, as it's antifighter is rubbish. Front firepower is good, but only range 25 and speed 6, so you won't be shooting at the Gaim from turn 1 with it's lasers, which means you probably won't kill a queen with it before it gets eaten by Assault drones.

The skirmish ships will *all* die to emine fire really quickly, and are too short range to effect the gaim, anyway.

The T'Loth will probably be OK for a turn or two, and it may even take a couple of turns to get enough breaching pods on it to eat the troops. Unfortunately, it's firepower is not up to hurting the Gaim at all.

Brakiri

Massed Kalivas are the only thing that'll work... maybe 2 in 5 Raid with a Halik (that'll be dead after turn 2, or 3 at the latest if it closes blast doors for the first 2 turns). You'll be relying on punching through interceptors and getting crits to cause any serious damage, though. The Corumai may be alright... fire it in turn 1 then get it off the board, it's a boring way to play and you rely on beam luck to do serious damage, though. Everything else is too short ranged and slow to effect the Gaim at all.

Centauri

Liati's are brilliant, but die to massed emine fire too quickly to be worth using against the Gaim. 5 Sulusts would be OK if you get lucky with beam hits, they're quick enough and long ranged enough to do some damage, but it's hardly a balanced fleet. Same with 4 Elutarians and 2 Corvans (if there's terrain for the Corvans to hide behind, otherwise they'll just die on turn 1.) Both fleets here will be having to bug out after a couple of turns, though else they'll die to breaching pods again. Nothing else in the fleet is long ranged enough to engage the Gaim without being boarded.


What I think could be done to modify the Gaim so that they're more fun to play against:

Halve the number of fighters on their ships, and either give them 2 AD of Double Damage/Precise or 1 AD of Triple Damage/Precise to compensate. Half the carrier rating on all of their ships.

Halve the number of breaching pods (or even quarter them), and make them hull 6, speed 6, dodge 6. With all the precise ramming fighters blowing engines up left, right and center, the gaim should be able to board ships well enough without having any breaching pods at all. As it stands you simply can't afford to close with them. Ever. This makes playing against them lack any tactical flexibility, and absolutely no fun.

Both of the above changes should also mean that Gaim players have enough money to buy real fighters and breaching pods for ther ships instead of using counters all the time.

Get rid of their interceptors completely... after all, they have enough fighters to act as guards, which should make the Gaim commander at least have to decide what he does with them. After all, they have no secondary weapons, so where are all these point defense weapons coming from?

Drop all of emines to range 30. Or 20.

Change the weapons on the gunship... it needs more and better guns. Theres no reason at all to take one over the skirimsh queen at present, she's better against everything. Possibly get rid of the emine on it, and give it turreted mini gattling lasers (4AD of minibeam at range 10 or something)

Drop the damage of the assault ship to about 30, or the hull to 5. Replace its P/S/A heavy gattling lasers with light gattling lasers (6 AD of minibeam in each arc at range 10). At the moment, its such a strong ship the only reason it's not completely obviously over the top is that the carrier is also at raid level.

Give the Raid queen another bank of emines, she's rubbish compared to 2 skirmish queens.

Doing this would also introduce the usefulness of a bigger, higher priority carrier to the Gaim, which would mean another sexy model :wink:

Possibly a battle level, gattling laser based ship, too... that'd be cool!

And while I'm asking for the moon on a stick... a War level queen too, please :D
 
Interesting.

I believe that the Gaim are quite possibly the worst 'broken' fleet list that has come along in since 1st ed.

Am awaiting the reply of others before I post more on this subject.


Good initial post.
 
I'm going to find out about this more tomorrow.

Gaim vs Shadows (friend is Gaim, I'm playing Shadows).

My strategy will be to bring plenty of Shadow Scouts.

Gaim fighters have a Hull of *3* and when converted to missiles have Hull 4.

Shadow Scouts have 6AD, Accurate, SAP which means don't role a 1 and you can take out 6 fighters per Scout. With two or more Scouts on the board which have Stealth, Dodge, and Shields, they should be able to last long enough and take out enough fighters to allow your Stalker or Young to beam the Gaim carriers to death.

That's my strategy anyways....
 
I think its a signifier of how broken Gaim are when a tournament fleet has almost no chance, and a fleet -designed- to fight Gaim have a hard struggle to win, or even break even.

Unfortunately for your Shadow Scouts, their stealth and dodge means absolutely nothing to the e-mines, fighters, and boarding pods of the Gaim, so a good portion of their defense is removed and made irrelevant...
 
I played against Gaim actually in my very first 2nd ed game a few weeks ago and I was not that much impressed. At a 5 point raid I had 1 shadow ship and 1 shadow scout. My scout ended up dying but my ship was largely indifferent to the guided missiles flying around and dropping 1 enemy ship per firing phase. When the dust finally settled my ship was around 50 hp and the enemy was completely gone.

I was very fearful of those guided missiles by the way my opponent was talking about them, in my mind he could hit me with 40+ fighters and blow my ship off the table. However after reading the rules once again we found on that he could only drop 9 fighters at a time ( we were using counters) and 3 of the fighters were removed straight away by shields. I used my scout to kill a few of his fighters until I realized they would be better spent by going after the actual ships. The last two times I played Gaim I came out on top each time after getting peppered with E-mines and Fighters they just couldn't do enough damage.
 
Most drakh ships with High end GEG laugh at the emines tossed by gaim. also each fighter can only attack at a time so the suicide fighters have to hope for crits to hurt Gaim. GEG 2-4 should do the trick against the Gaim only leaving the gattling beams to take care of the higher GEG.
 
thehod said:
Most drakh ships with High end GEG laugh at the emines tossed by gaim. also each fighter can only attack at a time so the suicide fighters have to hope for crits to hurt Gaim. GEG 2-4 should do the trick against the Gaim only leaving the gattling beams to take care of the higher GEG.

Then the forty boarding pods jack you, with the re-rolling assault drones.

Forty boarding pods, sixty fighters, 80 AD of AP Emines, all from 10 Queen Ships for a simple 5 Raid.... thats a recipe for annihilation, few fleets can handle that in an all-comers list, and would likely still struggle if they were purpose-built to defeat it.

One or two elements individually you can survive... all of it together in one massive avalanche? Like a force of nature, very difficult to survive.

I know my Crusade EA have essentially no chance whatsoever against the 10 Shuuka Queen Light Cruiser fleet. Simply no way to do enough damage fast enough to avoid complete annhilation/loss.
 
I don't know if any other drakh ended up facing the gaim or not, but I did. I was put in a supply ships scenario, so I knew the freighters were lost no matter what. instead i decided to hold the gaim and take down as many of them as I could. I ended up with my mothership, strike cruiser and all auxilliary craft in a line facing the gaim. overlapping fire arcs where possible. by turn two their was already an unfeasable amount of breaching pods and fighters, I managed tio wipe out half of them, only for the rest to move up... and wiping out half of them, with an armageddon ship with rwin linked ap dice (18 of thanks to a refit) was tough going. as it was most of my destroyers and cruisers were boarded, and as well as having tons of troops, fighters, e-mine etc, them darn troops also get double rolls, re-rolls etc, sheesh! I figured with 24 troops the mothership would be ok, and to this end, my opponent made sure he boarded everything else!! I did destroy two ships, and but for the game endedin may well have destroyed two more. It would have been interesting to see if with enough time, the Mothership could have survived all the crewed missile attacks to get to the larger queen ships. I think it would have been close. To do this though, I needed GEG 4 and 24 defending troops!
I must add, this battel was against the "balanced" Drakh fleet. Their was no way this could be won on VP's, it would have to be won by crusing my opponent completely... could I have done it, I'm not too sure!
 
I had a few ideas on making the Gaim a non broken cheese fleet.

1) Make the Queen ships Unique. One per fleet.

2) Make that you must have 2 non Queen ships for every Queen Ship.

3) 1 Turret for the e-mines lower the AD or make them slow loading. Also give them secondary weapons like the gatling lasers to replace the loss of the e-mines. Also lower the range of the e-mines.

4)Get rid of the Flight Computer on the Gaim ships. This negates the Loosing the Queen with it.

5) The suicide fighters up the Dodge to 4+ (it is easier to predict a piloted missile than a dodging one). Also give them a 1 round "life".

Seeing the Gaim Fleet this weekend field by one of the players. It is a must that the Gaim are fixed. It is no fun when you are in a fun tournament and you have a broken cheese fleet to face.
 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The Gaim need to lose their e-mines to be even remotely balanced. The e-mines negate all their disadvantages and negate everyone else's advantages. Stealth, dodge, interceptors, the main defences of most fleets that have any defences at all, are all worthless against the Gaim. Take the e-mines away and you've started to fix them.

Next, slash the fighter numbers as previously suggested, by at least half. Same for the breaching pods. No one has a chance against that many fighters ramming them and the pods make a mockery of anyone trying to close and batter them with short-ranged guns. Then, have the crewed missiles die at the start of the turn after they're declared so they have to attack in the turn they overcharge the reactors. It'd probably be ok to slash the dogfight values of the standard fighter as well, so other races' fights could at least win massed dogfights against them.

Next, drop the flight computers and interceptors. Anyone with mostly interceptable weapons like the Centauri or Dilgar are going to see their shots amount to very little in battles with the Gaim, and long range missile users like EA and Dilgar will see their one shot at killing the damn Gaim go down in flames as well.

In short, totally gut the Gaim and start again. The concept is fine, close-range insect swarm in space, but the e-mines and advanced traits make them grossly overpowered.
 
if you drop the e-mines you dont need to lower their fighters as then you have your own fighters to intercept the Gaim ones.
i would drop the flight comps but not the interceptors if they lose e-mines too.
basically LDTD sounds like you want them as weaker raiders as they dont even have the beams raiders have.
you can go too far in the opposite direction and your suggestions are exactly that.
 
They have too many fighters to make even fighter-heavy fleets like EA relevent. When you can put 200 fighter flights on the table how is your opponent meant to stop them? The Gaim fighters are dogfight +1, equal to Dilgar and most of the League's frontline fighters but they massively outnumber them. Cutting the dogfight value might not be necessary if you cut the numbers, but even halving them means a skirmish carrier has 12, more than the raid and battle carriers other races bring. You tell me how to stop those kind of numbers with the amount of fighters you get in a balanced fleet from any other race - or even a cheesed-out fighter fleet. I dare you.

Gaim have beams, and not boresighted ones like Raiders. Short-ranged, yes, but without the e-mines they'd at least be relevent, and useful to discourage short-ranged ships from closing.

If they keep the interceptors what motive is there to keep fighters back to defend their ships? None at all, since you'll gank anything that closes in to fire with your crewed missiles and pick off any fire that does get through.
 
actually the fleet carrier is raid level. and as the fighters are their main weapon i dont see why 8 avenger fighters shouldnt have to go up against 24 Gaim ones especially as auroras are better, and raziks from the baltarian will also stop alot of firepower.
the EA, centauri, narn and vree cannot have the missiles/torps stopped by dogfighting so tell me why you should be able to stop every single Gaim crewed missile?
and yes they have short range beams, which means even raiders can outgun them at range.
sorry but your suggestions are way over the top, basically remove everything and let me kill them.
at 6pt battle where they have 200 fighters if using 6 fleet carriers bring 6 balvarins. plus 2 liatis. that gives you 48 +4 dogfighters against their 200 +2 ones. means they have to use around 150 just to even things up, and thats the gaims main weapon.
so if you remove e-mines from them you certainly couldnt lower the fighters.
 
some knee jerk reactions comign in here :(

lets look at them rationally and instead of plain debunking, come up with agreed solutions on how to balance them, whilst retaining a uniquish feel. these models are way to nice not to be more widely used..
 
we came up with a couple of possible fixes the night before in the pub. one was make the e-mines forward fire only.
2nd was obviously remove the flight computer.
3rd had to be fixes to the only 2 really broken ships which are the skirmish queen (half its firepower, less fighters) and the fleet carrier which i guess could go down to one 2AD e-mine if keeping its fighter complement, i would also remove fleet carrier from this ship, just let it launch them in large amounts but no recovery.
also max range of 30" so they dont outrange people and have to advance if they want to fire and launch fighters.
 
Disallow counters. Bingo, Gaim are balanced! :lol:
(Cos no bugger would buy and build 108 or more fighte minis, and if they do, they deserve to win1!!!!)
 
Instead of completely removing the emines from the gaim, how about giving them some kind of special rule that says they can only damage fighters (like the EA anti fighter missile?) but they could scramble ships communication like the Abbai coms disruptor?
 
Jim? said:
Instead of completely removing the emines from the gaim, how about giving them some kind of special rule that says they can only damage fighters (like the EA anti fighter missile?) but they could scramble ships communication like the Abbai coms disruptor?

would still leave you with the problem of them killing your fighter screen.
 
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