Solomani are missing Uplifted species

[Sigtrygg]

Chimpanezes clearly have a sense of justice, in many respects, but for example, they become angered over unequal treatment; see this video of an experiment on it: Chimp justice experiment

They have courts? I think it is more that we anthropomorphise animal behaviour more than we should.

Lots of higher intelligence animals seem to have moral codes, according to researchers.

I would like to see this research. Do you have examples of papers showing animals have ethical and moral codes that they develop and change over time?

These are mostly the usual suspect: whales, dolphins, apes. The elephant behaviour cited earlier certainly implies a moral code: the desire for revenge arises from a sense of injustice. Eye for an eye.

Or more likely the desire to remove a threat.

Obviously, human ethical codes are much more elaborate.

Because we are intelligent...

 

[MonsterX]

They have courts? I think it is more that we anthropomorphise animal behaviour more than we should.

I would like to see this research. Do you have examples of papers showing animals have ethical and moral codes that they develop and change over time?

Or more likely the desire to remove a threat.

Because we are intelligent...

I did actually link a video, above. Here is a book only part of which is open access, but it gives lots of examples and a sense of where the research is at. (You do know, if you want to, you can just put a search into google scholar and you will a list of the research on any given topic? That is what I do.)

It is clearly not generally just a matter of removing a threat, though there are cases where it could be that. As with human actions, you can't always tell whether it was just random activity, or self-interest, or whatever. Motives are rarely clear, and animals can't generally tell us their motives - with a few exceptions of animals that have learned simple communication using devices. Those do sometimes communicate motives.

Of course, you can. and some do try, to explain away the behaviours in various ways, and maybe they are right. But there is a lot of evidence, and it looks pretty convincing. Moral behaviour tends to be associated with high intelligence, i.e. the higher an animals intelligence the more evidence of complex moral behaviour. Which is what you would expect.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Go ahead and give me one example of an animal species that displays any of the above.

If you are going to resort to that sort of argument don't bother replying, you are trolling.

1/ Without communication we can't establish whether they have religion. However elephants will bury dead calves (they can't bury larger members of the herd due to size). Different herds will either avoid the burial site or visit it routinely. Looks like it could be religion to me.

For ethics and morals : Animal ethics and morals

The book, "Can Animals Be Moral?" (Oxford University Press, October 2012), suggests social mammals such as rats, dogs and chimpanzees can choose to be good or bad. And because they have morality, we have moral obligations to them, said author Mark Rowlands, a University of Miami philosopher.

2/ Humans are indisputably animals. If humans have those features logically they evolved from features existing in the ancestral animals, perhaps not developed as far or exhibited as much due to lower intelligence but there.

3/ Until relatively recently the scientific consensus was that only humans used tools. (How they thought that with beaver damns existing I don't know). Now multiple species, birds, apes, otters and even some octopi are known to do so.

What will be known in 10 years?

 

[MasterGwydion]

They have courts? I think it is more that we anthropomorphise animal behaviour more than we should.

Now who wants animals to be treated as humans in a fur suit? You seem to think that the human way is the only way and any other way is unintelligent.

I would like to see this research. Do you have examples of papers showing animals have ethical and moral codes that they develop and change over time?

Or more likely the desire to remove a threat.

Because we are intelligent...

Sounds like someone who doesn't want to know. I have known that chimpanzees have used tools since Jane Goodall when I was a kid. Digging bugs out of the ground with a stick, was the example that was used at the time. If you haven't learned at least that much from the research that was cutting edge and very much popularized 50 years ago, then I am not sure anything exists that you would consider evidence.

 

[Sigtrygg]

It is impossible to have a reasonable discussion with some people on this forum.

Asking about the research is a genuine question, yes I am capable of searching but I though I would ask for pointers.

I note this in the article linked to:

"But while some animals have complex emotions, they don't necessarily have true morality, other researchers argue"

put another way, it is a topic for discussion, and considering the flaws in the human social "sciences" application to animal intelligence and behaviour has a pretty high evidence requirement.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Now who wants animals to be treated as humans in a fur suit?

I really can not understand how you leap to such ridiculous conclusions when I have said nothing at all about treating animals as humans in a fur suit. my argument is the exact opposite in point of fact.

You seem to think that the human way is the only way and any other way is unintelligent.

I don't get what you are trying to contribute here.

Sounds like someone who doesn't want to know.

I want to know, that is why I asked the question, I may go and research it in a while, I may decide it is pointless. I get to make the choice. because I am intelligent.

I have known that chimpanzees have used tools since Jane Goodall when I was a kid. Digging bugs out of the ground with a stick, was the example that was used at the time. If you haven't learned at least that much from the research that was cutting edge and very much popularized 50 years ago, then I am not sure anything exists that you would consider evidence.

I am well aware of out chimpanzee cousins and their capabilities, and the tool use among corvids etc etc. your argumant it trite,
what I am doubting is their ability to form larger communities, societies and cultures, to adapt the environment to their needs rather than react to it.
Using tools is very different to manufacturing tools by combining materials - why have chimpanzees not realised they can tie rocks to sticks, or extract glue from trees to improve the binding. What would happen if humans tried teaching this to chimpanzees? has this been tried?

Teaching apes sign language has revealed they have potential to learn such a skill, so why is their communication in the wild so limited? Why have they not discovered complex sign language communication for themselves?

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Why have they not discovered complex sign language communication for themselves?

Why did it take humans so long to create a written language? Because it is a big leap to a new type of thing they are rare and far between. The same for compound tools.

Chimps only have a life expectancy of 15 years in the wild, not much time to figure out complex things and pass them on especially without a complex spoken language. What might they accomplish if they had double that?

 

[actionman]

Monkeys engage in prostitution.
Chimps who achieve troupe dominance by fighting dirty are treated with contempt by other chimps (they have to individually intimidate other chimps into the usual gestures of subordination every single time, instead of everyone getting with the program the way they do when they respect the dominant male).
Chimps have engaged in horrible extortion.

I think the original contention here was that uplifted animals would not act in the negative animalistic ways I described earlier because they would be intelligent, and therefore choose not to act in those ways. I disagree because I think the examples of intelligence, both in animals and human beings, being used to make animalistic behavior more gainful are too numerous to count (and too disgusting to describe here).

Killer whales are not called consideration-of-others whales for a reason, despite their high intelligence.

I think the problem is that animals would still have their animal impulses, instincts, reflexes, and natures, despite their uplifted intelligence. Even human beings still have a pretty powerful primal nature, and a lot of people have trouble controlling it. IMO uplifted animals would endure a lot of suffering because their uplifted intelligence would allow them to see and understand the conflict between their animal nature, their intellect, and the human culture they're expected to adhere to, while they simply have to endure it. Really, I think the only role intelligence would play is to allow them to understand what was going on with them. They would be in a constant struggle moderate their natural behavior to deal with human culture. Behavior moderation, IMO, isn't so much intelligence as it is pain/pleasure, feels-good-man/feels-bad-man, and empathy/sympathy. Intelligence helps with thinking through the possible consequences of one's actions, like how committing an armed home invasion while on parole while wearing an ankle bracelet will probably lead to negative consequences. Still, people do things like this. I think uplifted animals would have an even harder time with thinking through things and dealing with impulse control.

 

[Condottiere]

You'll have to wait and see if the uplifted chimpanzees start farming along the banks of a river, and urbanize.

Life expectancy, and the capability to pass along memes.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You'll have to wait and see if the uplifted chimpanzees start farming along the banks of a river, and urbanize.

Life expectancy, and the capability to pass along memes.

Is sharing memes a sign of intelligence or a sign of a lack of intelligence? lol

Uplifted Platypus?

 

[Midas]

As a result of thinking of this I've been designing Olympus as a world ruled by Gods and Goddesses who are uplifted humans. Most with Psionic awareness, the higher the status the more powers (also sexist in that the Goddesses are less enhanced) only the most powerful having Telepathy and Teleportation.

Other social levels having lower and lower stats (the inverse of uplifting).

Not a nice world to live on if you aren't a God and potentially deadly to visit if you annoy a God. Limited tech except "Godly Magic".

Plato's Stepchildren?

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Plato's Stepchildren?

Much nastier.

 

[Condottiere]

I think it was Dawkins that theorized we pass on knowledge with memes.

I rather suspect limited access tended to self censor a lot of more irrelevant information.

 

[Midas]

A few years (decades?) ago, someone created the Christmas Subsector, with planets named with Christmassy themes. (I have decided the planet Rudolf orbits a red supergiant).

I've considered some uplifted animals for this subsector:
Polar Bears
two types of uplifted goats, the intimidating Krampi and the smaller, more approachable Joljolpukki (however you spell that )
Seals, sea lions, and or walruses?
If there are reindeer, they are mentally and Psionically uplifted, but not physically.
What uplifts would you guys see?

 

[rinku]

Uplifts don't strictly need to be heritable. Or long term. Flowers for Algernon.

Island of Doctor Moreau was the ur-example, and it was not clear from that if his surgically enhanced creatures were capable of breeding uplifts. They started to revert to animal behaviour after Moreau stopped work on them.

 

[rinku]

I'll put forward marsupials, and especially macropods, as candidates again, at least from a body plan point of view. Their form of reproduction evolved *from* placental mammals (not the other way around, as was originally assumed. Those dang monotremes confused everyone, as they always do...). Giving birth earlier in the developmental cycle and carrying it around until it's more mature appears to have survival benefits in harsh environments. Fetuses can be put on hold, and taken off "pause" once a joey has left the pouch. Useful.

Kangaroos are upright bipeds with forepaws that can manipulate. Some species of macropod have returned to their arboreal roots and are expert tree climbers and fruit pickers.

They have a very efficient digestive system. Their meat is low in fat and high in protein. Falls into the category of meat that isn't Kosher (not mentioned in the bible as such) but is Halal (being from a herbivore).

 

[Tom B]

I think it was Dawkins that theorized we pass on knowledge with memes.

I rather suspect limited access tended to self censor a lot of more irrelevant information.

The book was called the Selfish Gene

 

[Tom B]

I'll put forward marsupials, and especially macropods, as candidates again, at least from a body plan point of view. Their form of reproduction evolved *from* placental mammals (not the other way around, as was originally assumed. Those dang monotremes confused everyone, as they always do...). Giving birth earlier in the developmental cycle and carrying it around until it's more mature appears to have survival benefits in harsh environments. Fetuses can be put on hold, and taken off "pause" once a joey has left the pouch. Useful.

Kangaroos are upright bipeds with forepaws that can manipulate. Some species of macropod have returned to their arboreal roots and are expert tree climbers and fruit pickers.

They have a very efficient digestive system. Their meat is low in fat and high in protein. Falls into the category of meat that isn't Kosher (not mentioned in the bible as such) but is Halal (being from a herbivore).

Just as a note, some placental mammals can put foetuses on hold, e.g. alpacas.

 

[rinku]

Did not know that. Kangaroos can have one on hold while an earlier one is growing in the pouch. They're pretty much permanently pregnant, but plenty of other animals do that.

 

[MonsterX]

It is impossible to have a reasonable discussion with some people on this forum.

Asking about the research is a genuine question, yes I am capable of searching but I though I would ask for pointers.

Not everyone knows to go on Google Scholar, so my response was also genuine.