Solomani are missing Uplifted species

[Sigtrygg]

Why did it take humans so long to create a written language?

it didn't we have examples of "writing" on the monuments at Gobleki Tepi

Because it is a big leap to a new type of thing they are rare and far between. The same for compound tools.

Which we were making a million years ago...

Chimps only have a life expectancy of 15 years in the wild, not much time to figure out complex things and pass them on especially without a complex spoken language.

The early hominids did not fare much better and yet... here I am typing on a product of intelligence.

What might they accomplish if they had double that?

Nothing, they have had the same time frame as humanity and have achieved very little progress. A better question is where will human intelligence take us if we can continue to progress for the next million years without the set backs.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Monkeys engage in prostitution.
Chimps who achieve troupe dominance by fighting dirty are treated with contempt by other chimps (they have to individually intimidate other chimps into the usual gestures of subordination every single time, instead of everyone getting with the program the way they do when they respect the dominant male).
Chimps have engaged in horrible extortion.

We sturdy this behaviour and anthropomorphism it.

I think the original contention here was that uplifted animals would not act in the negative animalistic ways I described earlier because they would be intelligent, and therefore choose not to act in those ways. I disagree because I think the examples of intelligence, both in animals and human beings, being used to make animalistic behavior more gainful are too numerous to count (and too disgusting to describe here).

And I disagree because humans have risen above their base animal instincts and urges. Uplifted animals would likely do the same, since we have a sample size of one for comparison

Killer whales are not called consideration-of-others whales for a reason, despite their high intelligence.

And yet murder other ocean creatures, and their zoo keepers. Or do they? When animals kill is it murder...

I think the problem is that animals would still have their animal impulses, instincts, reflexes, and natures, despite their uplifted intelligence.

Just as humans do, but we are taught rules, ethics, morals, religion, law... all because we are intelligent.

Even human beings still have a pretty powerful primal nature, and a lot of people have trouble controlling it.

And different cultures, morality, belief systems which are incompatible.

IMO uplifted animals would endure a lot of suffering because their uplifted intelligence would allow them to see and understand the conflict between their animal nature, their intellect, and the human culture they're expected to adhere to, while they simply have to endure it.

Their uplifted intelligence allows for them to be taught to have rules, ethics, morals, religion, law to control the self.

Really, I think the only role intelligence would play is to allow them to understand what was going on with them. They would be in a constant struggle moderate their natural behavior to deal with human culture. Behavior moderation, IMO, isn't so much intelligence as it is pain/pleasure, feels-good-man/feels-bad-man, and empathy/sympathy. Intelligence helps with thinking through the possible consequences of one's actions, like how committing an armed home invasion while on parole while wearing an ankle bracelet will probably lead to negative consequences. Still, people do things like this. I think uplifted animals would have an even harder time with thinking through things and dealing with impulse control.

It would depend on the level and nature of the uplifted intelligence...

perhaps we need to define intelligence?

But that is for another thread.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

it didn't we have examples of "writing" on the monuments at Gobleki Tepi

Counting Homo Antecessor modern humans go back 300,000+ years. So yes it took a long time for writing to be developed. That doesn't include all the earlier hominins going back millions of years

Which we were making a million years ago...

Yet homo erectus was around nearly 2 million years ago. So why not for 1/2 their existence?

The early hominids did not fare much better and yet... here I am typing on a product of intelligence.

Nothing, they have had the same time frame as humanity and have achieved very little progress. A better question is where will human intelligence take us if we can continue to progress for the next million years without the set backs.

Early hominids were more intelligent AND achieved very little more than chimps. They didn't have the brain size or the adaptations to allow enough variety of vocalizations for complex speech just like chimps. Also like the chimps their hands were less developed for tool use. So why would you expect chimps to do more than the more adapted to tool use early genus homo?

The genus homo stone age lasted millions of years. They needed the adaptations for complex speech, larger brains, better hands to go past that.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Counting Homo Antecessor modern humans go back 300,000+ years. So yes it took a long time for writing to be developed. That doesn't include all the earlier hominins going back millions of years

The latest research pushed it back a million years, the thing is we have no evidence of human civilisations frior to the last ice age - a bit odd that anatomically modern humans build no civilisations or cultures for a million years and then suddenly, following the last icea age, a culture appears all of a sudden in what is now Turkey...

Yet homo erectus was around nearly 2 million years ago. So why not for 1/2 their existence?

because homo erectus were not much more intelligent than chimps... or it could be we just gone have the remains of theri civilisation that we can comment on. There is evidence that erectus may have built boats to cross oceans...

Early hominids were more intelligent AND achieved very little more than chimps.

We don't know that.
There could have been many cultures and civilisations during what we call pre-history, natural disasters could have destroyed the traces...

They didn't have the brain size or the adaptations to allow enough variety of vocalizations for complex speech just like chimps.

Ever study the genetics that gives those characteristics to sapiens et al?

Also like the chimps their hands were less developed for tool use. So why would you expect chimps to do more than the more adapted to tool use early genus homo?

Tool use would favour the evolution of better adapted hands, not the other way round.

The genus homo stone age lasted millions of years. They needed the adaptations for complex speech, larger brains, better hands to go past that.

We know stone age tools have been discovered all over the world dating back a million years. Anatomically modern humans are at least 300,000 years old now being pushed back to a million, and in all that time we never got beyond simple tools? I call shenanigans on that. In less than 12,000 years we have gone from primitive cities, agriculture and monument building to landing robots on Mars.
yet somehow people with exactly the same capabilities couldn't achieve the same in 288,000 years...

or could it be the genetic bottleneck of the 74,000 year ago Toba eruption is proof of a civilisation ending catastrophe? Rebuilding from then until the catastrophe at the younger dryas, whatever it was. The start again 12,000 years ago...

 

[Condottiere]

Going by the Sumerians, keeping track of inventory, and astronomy, helped.

I think the Egyptians are also into lists.

 

[Midas]

because homo erectus were not much more intelligent than chimps... or it could be we just gone have the remains of theri civilisation that we can comment on. There is evidence that erectus may have built goats to cross oceans...

Some typos are just too on the nose to pass up Were they uplifted goats? Were their hooves splayed and webbed?

 

[MasterGwydion]

and 17% of humans are illiterate, should they not be considered to have intelligence?

@Sigtrygg

It seems like you are cherrypicking what it means to be intelligent so that only humans can acheive it. The same way people say that humans have the largest brain to body ratio. They do, but only if you restrict it to large vertebrates. So, everyone else could be intelligent, but only if they develop the same systems that humans developed. Do you require written language if you have genetic memory? Do you require spoken language if you communicate by smell or by gesture or by skin or fur coloration?

My point being, that the definition of intelligence, as it exists currently, only allows for humans to be intelligent. (in the real world. In Traveller there are others, but they all meet that "human standard of intelligence") It is the standard human practice of trying to use categorization to make humans feel superior. It is stupid, insecure humans needing to feel special. I would blame religion, but humans created that too as another tool to oppress and control others. Animals are property because they are not intelligent. I seem to remember learning the same things about African people in school growing up and studying US history. Seems if it was wrong in the case of African people, it is likely wrong in the case of "animals" as well.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Anatomically modern humans are at least 300,000 years aold now being pushed back to a million, and in all that time we never got betond simple tools?

I haven't seen anything pushing modern humans back a million years. Can you give me a citation that I can search for? I've seen speculation of 400,000 but only real evidence to 300,000.

How about explaining why the simple stone tools would survive and more complicated ones do not? Sure not all the details would but the stone part with modifications for the addition of wooden handles for example should. Evidence for things like pottery should be found. Areas that were temperate then should have remains of stone structures that would have survived but haven't been found. Neanderthal burial sites have survived but nothing that I've heard of to indicate pre ice age farming or stone structures.

It also depends what you think a simple tool is. A boomerang for example is simple in appearance but would be complex to develop and if I recall right they existed in Europe 45,000 years ago. These wooden boomerangs survived but not evidence of a high stone age culture?

Without farming the population density for stone age construction isn't there. You need enough people living steadily in one place to make a stonehenge or a castle for example. No farming you don't have that. Farming evidence doesn't go back far enough.

 

[MonsterX]

There is evidence that erectus may have built goats to cross oceans...

I don't believe that homo erectus was engaging in genetic engineering. When archeologists call them "advanced tool users" I don't think this is what they meant. And there are easier ways to get across the ocean than by (riding?) goats.

Or were you writing on your phone? Damn that autocorrect.

Midas got there first, damn it.

 

[MonsterX]

We know stone age tools have been discovered all over the world dating back a million years. Anatomically modern humans are at least 300,000 years aold now being pushed back to a million, and in all that time we never got betond simple tools? I call shenanigans on that. In less than 12,000 years we have gone from primitive cities, agriculture and monument building to landing robots on Mars.
yet somehow people with exactly the same capabilities couldn't achieve the same in 288,000 years...

to understand this, you need to look to economic historians and the division of labour. Our present technology would not be possible without a large population, and an extremely high level of specialization. Socio-economic change has accelerated. It has been accelerating since the discovery of agriculture, and the beginning of the division of labour. Graphed out, it looks like a hockey stick, if you graph the whole of human history. It really started to take off a couple centuries ago - before that it was slow and steady. This is because of positive feedback loops. Nothing to stop it except resource depletion, and maybe related conflicts too (follow shortly thereafter by mass deaths). So we've got that to look forward to. Have a nice day everyone.

 

[Midas]

+

I don't believe that homo erectus was engaging in genetic engineering. When archeologists call them "advanced tool users" I don't think this is what they meant. And there are easier ways to get across the ocean than by (riding?) goats.

Or were you writing on your phone? Damn that autocorrect.

Midas got there first, damn it.

Well, at least we have answered the question from upthread "Why would anybody bother uplifting caprines?" I think I'll add to the Christmas subsector that Joljopokki are born swimmers and navigators...

 

[Sigtrygg]

and 17% of humans are illiterate, should they not be considered to have intelligence?

They can be taught to be literate, try it with a kangaroo...

@Sigtrygg

It seems like you are cherrypicking what it means to be intelligent so that only humans can acheive it.

Only humans have achieved human intelligence, what goes on in an animals brain I leave to the psionicists among us.

The same way people say that humans have the largest brain to body ratio. They do, but only if you restrict it to large vertebrates.

It is not the size of the brain to body ratio, it is the folds in the cerebellum to brain mass to body mass that makes the difference, allegedly...

So, everyone else could be intelligent, but only if they develop the same systems that humans developed.

So what is your definition of intelligence?

Do you require written language if you have genetic memory? Do you require spoken language if you communicate by smell or by gesture or by skin or fur coloration?

What is this genetic memory of which you speak?

My point being, that the definition of intelligence, as it exists currently, only allows for humans to be intelligent. (in the real world. In Traveller there are others, but they all meet that "human standard of intelligence") It is the standard human practice of trying to use categorization to make humans feel superior.

So change the definition, see how that goes down in scientific circles, I am sure there are some who will jump on it.

It is stupid, insecure humans needing to feel special.

Are you claiming human intelligence is not special? Compared with what? I am still waiting for my cat to join in this discussion.

I would blame religion, but humans created that too as another tool to oppress and control others.

As they did ethics, morals, laws, science, culture, socialism, communism, capitalism, "the science", real science etc.
every human social construct is ultimately about control.

Animals are property because they are not intelligent.

I do not view animals this way, but I am unlikely to have a discussion on morality with a hungry lion...

I seem to remember learning the same things about African people in school growing up and studying US history. Seems if it was wrong in the case of African people, it is likely wrong in the case of "animals" as well.

Interesting false association.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I haven't seen anything pushing modern humans back a million years. Can you give me a citation that I can search for? I've seen speculation of 400,000 but only real evidence to 300,000.

It was all over the news last week, I am sure you can google it...

https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/2025/september/origin-of-our-species-lineage-pushed-back-by-half-a-million-years.html

A Million-Year-Old Skull Just Rewrote The Origin Story of Humanity

An ancient skull, warped and damaged by the ravages of time and degradation, may have just altered our understanding of the history of modern humans.

www.sciencealert.com

there are many, many others.

How about explaining why the simple stone tools would survive and more complicated ones do not? Sure not all the details would but the stone part with modifications for the addition of wooden handles for example should.

Stone tools are made from flint and the like that last a long, long time. iron, copper, etc all degrade over time.

All of this is based on very little actual artifact discovery, the same holds true for dinosaurs and other extincet fora and flora, we have very little evidence despite the original numbers.

Go look up the Mayan city discovered in Guatemala I think it was, nature very quickly destroys evidence, now add world wide catastrophic events and little evidence remains after thousands of years.

Rewriting Mayan History: Archaeologists Discover Hidden Altar Buried Underground

A newly discovered altar buried near the center of the ancient Maya city of Tikal is providing fresh insight into the 1,600-year-old tensions between Tikal and the central Mexican capital of Teotihuacan. Just steps from the center of Tikal, a 2,400-year-old Maya city in present-day Guatemala, a t

scitechdaily.com

Evidence for things like pottery should be found.

Ever work with pottery fragments? I have, they do not last all that long and are subject to lots of erosion, unless placed somewhere to protect them from damage.

Areas that were temperate then should have remains of stone structures that would have survived but haven't been found. Neanderthal burial sites have survived but nothing that I've heard of to indicate pre ice age farming or stone structures.

We are finding new structures all the time, some lost in deserts, some in forests, some under water. They don't want you to study this as theri narrative falls apart.

It also depends what you think a simple tool is. A boomerang for example is simple in appearance but would be complex to develop and if I recall right they existed in Europe 45,000 years ago. These wooden boomerangs survived but not evidence of a high stone age culture?

45,000 year old european boomerangs - now that I will have to look up.

How many were made, how many examples have been preserved and discovered?

Without farming the population density for stone age construction isn't there.

And yet Gobekli Tepe and its surrounding civilisation is there, how did it suddenly appear? Where are the cultures that learned to build the stone monuments, temples, buildings and settlements?

You need enough people living steadily in one place to make a stonehenge or a castle for example. No farming you don't have that. Farming evidence doesn't go back far enough.

That is because the evidence for farms is easily vanished by nature - where are the agricultural lands and settlements that supported Gobekli Tepe? Where is the evidence for the settlements before they suddenly had the technology to build stone monuments, temples, civic buildings etc...

 

[Terry Mixon]

The latest research pushed it back a million years, the thing is we have no evidence of human civilisations frior to the last ice age - a bit odd that anatomically modern humans build no civilisations or cultures for a million years and then suddenly, following the last icea age, a culture appears all of a sudden in what is now Turkey...

because homo erectus were not much more intelligent than chimps... or it could be we just gone have the remains of theri civilisation that we can comment on. There is evidence that erectus may have built boats to cross oceans...

We don't know that.
There could have been many cultures and civilisations during what we call pre-history, natural disasters could have destroyed the traces...

Ever study the genetics that gives those characteristics to sapiens et al?

Tool use would favour the evolution of better adapted hands, not the other way round.

We know stone age tools have been discovered all over the world dating back a million years. Anatomically modern humans are at least 300,000 years old now being pushed back to a million, and in all that time we never got beyond simple tools? I call shenanigans on that. In less than 12,000 years we have gone from primitive cities, agriculture and monument building to landing robots on Mars.
yet somehow people with exactly the same capabilities couldn't achieve the same in 288,000 years...

or could it be the genetic bottleneck of the 74,000 year ago Toba eruption is proof of a civilisation ending catastrophe? Rebuilding from then until the catastrophe at the younger dryas, whatever it was. The start again 12,000 years ago...

 

[Condottiere]

The Aliens uplifted some of us, they built up Atlantis, and the central fusion reactor went wild and sank it.

The survivors scattered, and kickstarted a number of early civilizations.

 

[Sigtrygg]

View attachment 6027

Nothing suggests alien involvement at all.

For that you need to check out the human chromosome fusion conspiracy theory...

 

[Terry Mixon]

Nothing suggests alien involvement at all.

And I don’t believe it was. Just being humorous.

 

[MasterGwydion]

And I don’t believe it was. Just being humorous.

If our universe exists inside of a black hole, then anything is possible. lol

 

[Sigtrygg]

And I don’t believe it was. Just being humorous.

I hadn't finished the post, I should stop posting placeholders...

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

It was all over the news last week, I am sure you can google it...

https://www.nhm.ac.uk/discover/news/2025/september/origin-of-our-species-lineage-pushed-back-by-half-a-million-years.html

A Million-Year-Old Skull Just Rewrote The Origin Story of Humanity

An ancient skull, warped and damaged by the ravages of time and degradation, may have just altered our understanding of the history of modern humans.

www.sciencealert.com

there are many, many others.

Except it doesn't say Homo Sapiens is that million years old. It says that the split in the LINEAGE that led to Neandethal on one side and Sapiens on the other was ~1 million years ago.

“This changes a lot of thinking because it suggests that by one million years ago, our ancestors had already split into distinct groups, pointing to a much earlier and more complex human evolutionary split than previously believed,”

The split occurred but it was still an earlier form which took 100s of thousands of years to become Neanderthal and Denisovan on one branch and Sapiens on the other.