So how well is MRQ2 selling anyway?

[Mikko Leho]

I am curious, Mikko. How do you know this, and would this apply to both their new WFRP and their Dark Heresy/Rogue Trader et. al lines?

Just liberal amount of speculation. Black Industries' initial plan was to release three Wh40k RPGS and just recently FFG has announced a fourth one. All the books are of high production value, so FFG must be selling them. Wfrp 3rd edition is a bigger mystery but seeing that FFG is coming up with new supplements, the line cannot be a failure.

 

[jolt]

I apologize that I wasn't very clear in my last post.

A company only has "X" amount of money, time and manpower to work on projects; whatever they happen to be. Noble Armada seems like a decent game, though I haven't played it, but that's still money, time and manpower that isn't being devoted to rpg's. That was the reason I brought up miniatures.

We talked about adventures and scenarios in another thread. Adventures just don't generate enough money to justify writing a significant amount of the them (unless you can really make a name for yourself doing so like Goodman Games did with Dungeon Crawl Classics but that's rare).

Among companies known primarily for their rpgs, Paizo is the only one I know of that had an upswing in sales over the last year.

Over on the GURP's forums there was some lamenting that rpg sales were down. I don't think rpg sales are down I think that the money is being spread over more product. With sites like DriveThruRPG even a tiny publisher can get an rpg out there; even if it's only as a pdf. There are so many rpg's out there that I think it's taking a bite out of the mid to larger sized companies; however, I don't believe that rpg's as a whole are suffering at all. I believer the customer base has balkanized - spreading out over more games.

jolt

 

[danskmacabre]

I apologize that I wasn't very clear in my last post.
We talked about adventures and scenarios in another thread. Adventures just don't generate enough money to justify writing a significant amount of the them (unless you can really make a name for yourself doing so like Goodman Games did with Dungeon Crawl Classics but that's rare).

Really? I'm surprised to hear that.
Paizo makes a LOT of adventures and do quite well with them.
Even if what you say is true, TO ME if there's no adventures published for an RPG, it's a lot less attractive to me really. So IMO it really ought to be seen an an investment in reinforcing your product.
I would add I would be happy to buy Adventures in a PDF format only as well, as they're for the most part one shot items, so Mongoose could save prduction costs and I could get an adventure right away (by downloading it ) and making more of an impulse buy if the price was right.

Fortunately there's lots of old editions of Elric/Stormbringer for me to draw from anyway, but I'd love to see some new stuff out there and the line feels lacking without adventures.

The Runequest adventures due out soon will be nice though, I will almost certainly buy that and adapt it.

 

[Ultor]

I believe that RPGs is one area where you need Third Party support of the product from the fans. It generates interest, material and sales. Without it, the RPG will never break out of a small echo chamber. What happened with the d20 explosion was an anomaly, but most of those systems have died for lack of third party support.

I need to email Matt about getting permission for a MRQ2 fanzine. My model would be Fight On, the Old School zine, although at least initially I'd propose the cover price be Free or nominal, in order to establish interest, and therefore restricted to PDF only.

I also imagine that there'd be a market for affordable short third party adventures. Say 20 pages of adventure for $2.50-$4, again distributed mostly through PDF download.

A lot of people played RQ back in the day, and I'm sure they could be tempted back to the system by a host of affordable material. That's what happened with old school D&D. The old school D&Ders, however, don't have a commercially available, official, supported version of their system. We do. I suspect that is worth a lot.

 

[languagegeek]

I think it's perfect that there are independent designers out there like Clockwork and Chivalry putting out great scenarios/adventure paths for MRQII. If a couple more groups start quality APs like this, we'll have our hands full.

 

[danskmacabre]

I also imagine that there'd be a market for affordable short third party adventures. Say 20 pages of adventure for $2.50-$4, again distributed mostly through PDF download.

I'm definitely interested in making some small scenarios specially built for Elric MRQ2. Whic I will use of course and if turn out ok will format into a PDF and upload it here if allowed.
When I get time that is. my job is pretty demanding of time.

 

[Khamulcalle]

I would love some mini-senarios

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Like sealife washed ashore by the high watermark in the 80s, the rpg market is a dwindling one, because, frankly, they're either actually dying, or wandering off to do something more interesting. They're certainly getting older. It's actually not the case that there is more product to choose from these days, there was huge amounts released in the 80s, 90s and 00s too.

MRQII was probably Mongoose's last rpg hurrah, and it isn't going as well as hoped, as evidenced in the last State of the Mongoose. The decline was probably hastened by the too early appearance of the 2nd edition, which dents customer and retail confidence, a disasterous flaw in an early flagship book, (Arms & Equipment, which saw customers believe that Mongoose hadn't improved their proofreading, not srictly fair, but, hey), and the fact that, after a long, long wait, the RQ fanbase seems to have had it's fill.

Mongoose are probably wise to move on to pastures new, I wish them luck. Maybe RQ was just the wrong product, wrong time and all that.

 

[languagegeek]

wandering off to do something more interesting. They're certainly getting older.

Around here, there seems to be a demographic of fathers: late 30s early 40s who are rediscovering rpgs they haven’t played for twenty years. On my block alone, there are at least 4 gamers, and some of our kids are actively taking an interest in role playing.

I don’t know what it is like elsewhere, but in my neck of the woods there is a gaming renaissance as our generation is settling down in a neighbourhood, staying long enough to establish social networks, and tracking down all the other latent gamers. Relatively stable employment also means more funds to dedicate to buying new stuff.

 

[ThatGuy]

wandering off to do something more interesting. They're certainly getting older.

Around here, there seems to be a demographic of fathers: late 30s early 40s who are rediscovering rpgs they haven’t played for twenty years. On my block alone, there are at least 4 gamers, and some of our kids are actively taking an interest in role playing.

I don’t know what it is like elsewhere, but in my neck of the woods there is a gaming renaissance as our generation is settling down in a neighbourhood, staying long enough to establish social networks, and tracking down all the other latent gamers. Relatively stable employment also means more funds to dedicate to buying new stuff.

+1

I have recently reconnected and / or converted other 30 somethings to MRQ2 after a long layoff from gaming. I think it will continue. I have supported the line by purchasing almost every book (outside the elric line), and hope that Mongoose can continue to help me build the case for MRQ2 being the best system out. The bugs seem to have been worked out with every book since A&E being well proofed, and I REALLY want those next two: Blood Magic and Monster Island. Bad. Got Wraith Recon and The Abiding book recently and am happy with both, Wraith being spectacular.

I really hope Mongoose can keep it coming, because the line does seem to be improving. I know I, personally have driven at least a dozen sales of the corebook.

That said, I'm sure that they are looking for more than a dozen sales here and there.

 

[danskmacabre]

I'm in my mid 40s. The people I play RPGs with are in a very wide range of ages, from 20s up to a couple in their 50s.
After discussing RPGs with people I know who play RPGs in person, I have noted many have gone the way of Pathfinder/DnD.

Their reasoning is they give is PF is straight forward to run.
I find this interesting, as IMO the PF tactical combat system is really complicated compared to say RQ.
But the perception is games like RQ are more complicagted.
On the face of it I can see why people think that.
As you have an AC, and a bonus to hit and just roll a d20 and then if you hit roll some damage.
But the tactical system has all sorts of modifiers, complex movement rules, huge amounts of spells, lots and lots of classes etc.
Now from my POV I do enjoy the tactical system as well, it does give a lot of flavor to combat.

I think ATM there's a a big move towards older systems and specifically DnD type systems as I know RQ is just about as old, it feels like the older roleplayers are getting this feeling of nostalgia or something.
But I think eventually ppl will move on and try more modern systems again.

The comment about there being less RPGs about than in earlier days I don't agree with, maybe less commercial systems, but lots and lots of fan created systems, which people DO use, I have seen this in RPG clubs I visit sometimes.
Also very small indie RPG firms are doing ok as well, largely due to the internet.

I hope MRQ2 does survive, I really like it and intend to run Elric using it. I've been trying to convert some PF players away from DnD type games and try other types, Currently MRQ2.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Yeah, it's a good product, I was just in a bad mood when I posted my previous message after reading in the Conan rpg thread why 'women shouldn't be allowed to have 3D6 STR'. :roll:

Sorry guys.

 

[ThatGuy]

Yeah, it's a good product, I was just in a bad mood when I posted my previous message after reading in the Conan rpg thread why 'women shouldn't be allowed to have 3D6 STR'. :roll:

Sorry guys.

Ouch.

What about Zena?!!!! Or Red Sonja (I guess she's more finesse)?

Seriously, as a bit of a gym rat, there are some seriously strong women out there. Some don't even LOOK strong. I have seen a woman in a Yoga class bust out 50 pull ups. 50. 5-0. That is strong. And she did not look like she could. But i would not want to be on the receiving end of a right cross from her. And her muscle endurance would trump most guys.

And shes not a professional athlete. Have you seen some of the women in the WNBA? They would take 95% of the male population down in a fight.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand, I think the beautiful thing about MRQ2 is that it has a little bit of the best of both worlds. It has a throwback feel...but the system is brand spanking new...AND it is IMHO the best combat system out there. There is a reason that converting people to the system is not so difficult once you can get them past a "what's familiar" bias.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[DamonJynx]

I'm in my late 40's and have been roleplaying consistently for the last decade. My intro to RPG's came after reading Weiss & Hickmans, Dragonlance Chronicles. At the time, being a wannabe author, I thought the game would help me with characterization so I went and bought the "Red Box" set (still have it as it turns out). Found a group, wasn't what I thought it would be then did nothing until the computer game Baldurs Gate came out around 2000. I bought the D&D V3.0 books, played 2nd Ed (the only local group going) and then started playing regularly. Finally got with a group using the latest rules, updated to 3.5, updated 4.0 then changed to MRQ11 which is now all I'll ever GM.

That long winded intro is just so you guys know where I'm coming. IMHO there are 2 main factors affecting sales of PRINTED RPG's and accessories:

1. Illegal downloading (guilty! After spending thousands on RPG products over the years, I'm not going to spend more of my hard earned on products I may never use - this was other game systems my group and I looked at before I decided to run MRQ)

2. Saleable PDFs e.g. Drivethrurpg and their ilk

The proliferation of PDF's on the internet and e-books (legal or otherwise) is changing publishing altogether and I'm not sure it's for the better. There will always be those that prefer a printed product, but they will fall mainly in the 30+ demographic, with younger audiences preferring a digital offering.

The problem is, a digital product is very easy to share isn't it? If I buy the Elric series of MRQ products as PDF's I can share them with my group without it costing them any money, put it on a USB and load a copy onto their hard-drive, job done. But if I buy the hard copy I can't "share" that in the same manner, nor as easily.

With RPG's the problem is magnified due to the relatively small market size (compared to mass market paperbacks). I think, that the RPG companies should focus on producing digital offerings (rules, supplements, adventures etc), rather than printed ones -even though I personally prefer the opposite- as this will reduce publication costs and negate printing costs altogether, making the product more affordable and instantly available. If some technology could be developed to prevent illegal copies being down-loaded so much the better.

That is why RPG companies need to have a diversified product range, because relying solely on printed material is proving not viable in these economic conditions.

Just my opinion and not based on any research so to speak.

 

[languagegeek]

I look forward to local neighbourhood POD kiosks. I can buy my PDF at home or the kiosk via drivethru (or where ever), and walk home with a pdf copy and a hard copy. No need for game developers to worry about printing, shipping and all that. They can spend their time on producing more great material.

 

[ThatGuy]

I will just say, having worked in the market that has proven to be the test tube of piracy (music), the effects of easy access to information that was previously sold is- to industry- deadly.

It is one of the ways that the internet has really hurt industry- and the global economy. For example, people freely share- literally- millions of dollars of potentially taxable revenue in music. No only does the music industry miss out, but the governments do as well. Less revenue, less money all around. Less for schools, state and federal programs, etc. Movies have been hit hard. Books are in the middle of the same wave of business damage control. With Borders and Barns and Nobles stores going out of business left and right stateside, the threat is palpably imminent. I'm not sure if it is avoidable, but I am honestly surprised there is not more federal regulation around piracy. Gangsters run tighter ships. I guess the governments of the word have lost a little bit of their "Gangsta"...so to speak.

But I agree that piracy is probably the biggest problem facing the gaming and publishing world today. I will say that Mogoose does a pretty good job of keeping their stuff out of the "free zone" (at least as far as I know), as I have had people in on-line games tell me that they downloaded something about MRQ, and it is always the wrong thing. I eventually have to show them to the Drivethru RPG site and tell 'em: "Buy it. Or don't play."

It is a different time though, some folks have this twisted view that "Information wants to be free." To which I always respond, "Yeah, so do Ferrari's and Food. But they belong to someone that can decide how much he wants to part with them."

Still, with no negative incentive, the piracy will continue- and increase. I mean, if everybody is driving Ferrari's full of Groceries off the lot, and you are the only one paying for yours, eventually you are gonna scratch your head and ask: "Why am I the only tool paying for this stuff?"

*gets off soapbox*

 

[DamonJynx]

Still, with no negative incentive, the piracy will continue- and increase. I mean, if everybody is driving Ferrari's full of Groceries off the lot, and you are the only one paying for yours, eventually you are gonna scratch your head and ask: "Why am I the only tool paying for this stuff?"

My point exactly.

All printed material should be done on paper that is unreadable when photocopied or scanned. PDF's should be secured so that to do anything other than view it "X" times you need an unlock code or similar.

 

[Mikko Leho]

All printed material should be done on paper that is unreadable when photocopied or scanned. PDF's should be secured so that to do anything other than view it "X" times you need an unlock code or similar.

You are joking right? RPGNow/DriveThruRPG used to have copy protection but it didn't work. CDs used to have copy protection measures but they didn't work. Online music downloads used have DRM but it didn't work. Wizards of the Cost pulled their pdfs from the market altogether to avoid piracy, which certainly did not work. PC games are using DRM for now, but they are failing fast and making the actual buying population extremely frustrated. While I am not the hardcore advocate of free information, everything that makes my life as a legit customer more difficult is a bad business decision.

 

[DamonJynx]

You are joking right?

While I am not the hardcore advocate of free information, everything that makes my life as a legit customer more difficult is a bad business decision.

No, I'm not joking. I understand your POV. Unfortunately, those that "play fair", like yourself and others that frequent these forums, are now in the minority, rather than the majority. If you have any better ideas on how to prevent piracy, so that publishers, developers and authors get paid their due, I'd be mighty interested in hearing them. I'm sure these companies don't want to inconvenience legitimate customers but they have a right, surely, to protect their property and profits? I don't think that's a bad business decision, I think it is an inevitable decision if they are to remain viable. Unfortunately, this situation is the reverse of the old adage, the few spoiling it for the many.

 

[ThatGuy]

All printed material should be done on paper that is unreadable when photocopied or scanned. PDF's should be secured so that to do anything other than view it "X" times you need an unlock code or similar.

You are joking right? RPGNow/DriveThruRPG used to have copy protection but it didn't work. CDs used to have copy protection measures but they didn't work. Online music downloads used have DRM but it didn't work. Wizards of the Cost pulled their pdfs from the market altogether to avoid piracy, which certainly did not work. PC games are using DRM for now, but they are failing fast and making the actual buying population extremely frustrated. While I am not the hardcore advocate of free information, everything that makes my life as a legit customer more difficult is a bad business decision.

There are ways to control it. The most efficient are Federally enforced. If piraters were hit with fines from the IRS or it's equivalent folks would stop. There are other solutions as well (charges directly to you internet provider or phone bill, etc.). But pirating is traceable, it's just a matter of motivation.